no crisis just a question

[tristesse]

so as many of you know my BPDd 30 and her 5 yo son live with me. She is very low functioning and somedays she doesn't even get dressed, just hangs out in pajamas all day.

Again as many of you already know, I recently went through a 5 day period of raging where she turned my entire familys world upside down.

Here is the question.

How do I get passed this, How do I move on and quit holding this grudge? I am still so angry at her that every time she speaks to me I cringe. I also want to know how do I say NO to her when she wants something, I feel like I have to comply with whatever she wants to avoid living in chaos and hell, which in turn makes me even more resentful.

At the moment I feel like I have no life of my own, and I am never allowed a moment to myself. How can I take back my life without kicking her to the curb?

F.Y.I. , I am in process of reading the infamous Valerie Porr book, Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder, but it is a slow read, and I need advice now, if any is available,

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

tristesse, I'm so sorry that you are still dealing with the repercussions of your daughter's recent dysregulation. Considering how traumatic and frightening it all was, I can certainly understand that it is taking a while for you to regain your footing. I'm sure we all can feel where you are coming from... .

I'd like to just quote here the information from our link on the right-hand side panel (What are our goals/objectives?), just because it helps me when I need it:

It is recommended that:

•family members need to interpret things in the most benign way possible;

•there is no one or any absolute truth;

•everyone in the family is doing the best they can in this moment;

•everyone needs to try harder.

It helps me sometimes when I feel frustrated or upset with my BPD son (and also with my Husband, who has BPD traits), to just remember what I've been learning on this site, and to try to put things in perspective. It's not easy all the time (some dysregulations are worse than others, I do know that!), but the thoughts in the bullet points above can center me when I remind myself of them... .

You are doing the very right thing, reading the Valerie Porr book (and yeah, it takes time to get through it, but it really is very helpful!). Another book that would be helpful, especially because the tools taught here are derived from it, is "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" by Shari Y. Manning, Ph.D.

And you are doing the right thing coming here to vent and ask for support 

[lever.]

It is going to take time to recover from the horrible experience you had recently.

First of all keep reminding yourself that she has a serious mental illness.

I think the next step is self care. Take time for yourself and look after yourself whatever else is happening.

There have been a number of recent posts on here that may help you  Willingness v willfulness  Keeping calm in the storm.

I still feel some residual anger with my DD for initiating a horrible family fall out which has permanently affected family relationships. I find practicing mindfulness is helping me to let go of it.

Don't beat yourself up for feeling angry-it is a natural response-it alerts you to the fact that you are being treated unfairly but mindfulness takes the edge off and gives you time to think what needs to change rather than reacting impulsively.

I also think that boundaries are crucial here-though I have to admit they are not my strong point.

You are recovering from a really traumatic episode, be gentle with yourself  

[tristesse]

Thank you Rapt reader and lever.

My biggest problem isn't so much how  to get over the hurt and anger, as how to take my life back. I feel like I live every moment for her and her needs. I am resenting that more than anything else. I have not even a moment to myself, if I try to go somewhere I have to bogged down with 50 questions about where I am going why I am going  who I am going with, can I come along or can you take gs along etc. etc.

can you give gs a bath can you read gs a bedtime story, and so it goes. on and on. I rarely say no because it usually leads to fall out of some sort, and if I don't answer the barrage of questions then she wants to argue, accusing me of going and talking bad about her to my friends  ( I no longer have any of those ). How do I stop being afraid of the fall out and take my life back?

[lever.]

Does this seem relevent, Tristesse  US: Ragephobia - the fear of being raged upon

It sounds as if it is all connected to boundaries-she is trampling over your boundaries because you are fearful of her rage-and she is probably raging because of fear of abandonment-asking herself whether you still love her after all that has happened.

It is very important that you have time to yourself and build up friendships.

Would using SET work? eg

I enjoy spending time with GS and want to support you but I do get tired and need some time to myself.

If you just made an arrangement to go out and told her without justifying, explaining or arguing how would she react?

I do know that I worry if DD is staying at my house about going out and leaving her with other family members. I am worried they will all argue whilst I am awaybut we can't be held hostage.

Can you think of one thing you would like to do for yourself to take a first step at getting your own life back.

I would try not to respond at length to her questions and accusations.

I was advised early on not to JADE ie justify, argue. defend.explain.

[HealingSpirit]

I would try not to respond at length to her questions and accusations.

I was advised early on not to JADE ie justify, argue. defend.explain.

I love this acronym!  I too have difficulties with boundaries, and this is such an easy way to remind myself  how to uphold my boundaries.

I feel like I live every moment for her and her needs. I am resenting that more than anything else. I have not even a moment to myself, if I try to go somewhere I have to bogged down with 50 questions about where I am going why I am going  who I am going with, can I come along or can you take gs along etc. etc.

... .

How do I stop being afraid of the fall out and take my life back?

This is a great question! I had an audio book that talked about r/s and I'll always remember something the author said, "You teach people how you want to be treated."  (Sorry, it was so long ago, I don't remember the author.) This idea helps me take back responsibility, which gives me back my power to do something about it.  It is harder with pwBPD because we're not dealing with rational thinking or normal responses when we're dealing with our BPD loved one. 

I understand EXACTLY what you mean about resenting the constant care you give your DD and GS!  God knows, I've BTDT!  This is why boundaries and self care are soo soo SOO important for us caregivers.  I'm reading Boundaries right now, and it is a slow read for me too.  But the authors talk about how having good boundaries intact prevents resentment.  I definitely have work to do in this area, and I suspect you do too. I wish I knew what the answers are.

Is it possible for you to see your own T or take a course on Boundaries somewhere? Perhaps you could find a local NAMI meeting. Even Alanon groups deal with boundaries, so that might be helpful, even though your DD isn't an alcoholic, the random mood shifts of BPD are very similar to addict behavior.  I certainly understand your fear of the fallout!  Your DD has been so dysregulated, I'd be afraid to rock the boat too.  I don't know what the answer is, other than to go "lick your wounds," heal yourself, and find a way to take your power back, Tristesse.  .  I know those are all esoteric concepts. I know you're looking for "what steps to take" and "how to" but only you know what those are for yourself.

  I think it's normal to feel resentful when we live with people who expect so much from us and never consider our needs.  Radical acceptance, boundaries, and self care are all we can do about it.

Also, check out Rapt Reader's post about Willingness vs Willfulness.  The concept is really about Mindfulness, which is helpful to all of us.

[Verbena]

tristesse,

I have been following your story.  You basically have a terrorist living in your home.  You are doing what you can to avoid another "strike" but you know it is coming eventually no matter you do, and you know you will be the target.  The only thing you don't know is how much destruction there will be the next time. 

I have been in your shoes though not as severe a situation as you are dealing with.  Unless something changes, and a big way, you will eventually be destroyed by this illness.  Is there ANY WAY to get your daughter out of your home?  You shouldn't have to live this way any longer.

I know you have said that your grandson's father is a good daddy and that you have taken the child to him to protect him from his mother's rages.  Would he consider trying for full custody?  Is he fully aware of what his son is being exposed to?  I would think he would  have major concerns about the damage being done to his son. 

I remember you saying how upset your DD was at the thought of not having access to your other grandchild, so I am guessing if she were to lose custody a downward spiral of epic proportions could ensue.  However, your grandson's well-being is more important.  He is helpless and should not have to witness the chaos and insanity your DD creates in your home.  I know you do everything you can to mitigate that, but there's only so much you can do. 

Maybe if your daughter knew she might not get visitation unless she got serious about getting help, that could be the motivation she needs to change. 

This is such a sad situation, and my heart goes out to you. 

[lever.]

I've been thinking a lot about you tristesse.

I feel for you because I have been in similar situations in the past.

I realize that I am tense and apprehensive because my DD is going to be staying with me for 10 days and I am acknowledging to myself that I could not handle her living here permanently with her children.

Admittedly part of it is because of my DHs reactions to her.

However it is making me think that Verbena is correct-is there any way at all that she could live somewhere else so that you could support her and still have your own life.

Perhaps work hard on establishing boundaries with the advice you have been given earlier but if this continues I agree-you should not have to live this way.

It is also good to post when there is not an immediate crisis-it gives the opportunity to think and plan.

The best time to mend the roof is when the sun is shining!

[tristesse]

Thank you all for your help and advice.

I have been researching, trying to find a place for my dd to live, I am coming up empty at the moment, but have not given up on it just yet.

Gs will not be living with his dad, he is not prepared to fight for custody, Not sure why, but he won't do it, so for now it is up to me to protect my gs.

DD had an appointment this morning with her T and she canceled it, I feel like I should be mad and upset about that, but I'm not. I blame this T for her latest episode, and for feeding her the crap about having toxic parents. I want her away from that T anyway.

So now my search begins anew for a T who will be good for and then convincing her to go.

Wish me luck

[theplotthickens]

It is recommended that:

•family members need to interpret things in the most benign way possible;

•there is no one or any absolute truth;

•everyone needs to try harder.

I wanted to mention that as I tried on some of these ideas, I found them to be absurd and stress-inducing.  The idea that there is no absolute truth is in itself a truth claim.   That said, it makes living with a ODD, ADHD, BIPOLAR, Borderline/Antisocial PD a nightmare.  So, lies don't exist?  Either my daughter pulled a knife on me, or she didn't.  Either I yelled at her, or I didn't.  Either she called me a f****** c*** or she didn't.   Someone is telling the truth and someone is lying.  (I have the video, and can prove it, or the police would have believed her, YES, lies.) 

I spent a lot of time trying to brainwash the left side of the brain into this unreasonable assertion.  It does not agree with my experience or reality.  It is more of a philosophical and religious assertion than a scientific one.  (I believe that this is a Buddhist assertion).  It stressed me out big time, and it also was not helping my daughter make friends with reality.  If she gets away with lies and manipulation, there is a big time payoff and it reinforces the behavior.

It is like trying to play a game of chess, and there are no rules, or "truth."  It is a free for all, and it isn't much fun to play, as somebody is always going to take advantage. It feels like driving on a 6-lane highway with no lanes and no traffic signs; everyone going all over the place without any basic rules.  Logic and reason can't be denied long-term.  There is truth, and there are rules in life. If there is no truth, the logical conclusion is that harm is as good as help.   The sooner our kids learn that truth exists, and that there are rules in life, the better.

Perspectives are another matter.  There are always two sides to a flapjack.  But if one of the sides is distorted, it does not speak to "truth" but "distortion."  Feelings are always valid, but that does not make them "true."  If my daughter denies that she is suicidal to avoid treatment, but her behavior and words shoe that she needs hospitalization, only one can be true.  Either she has a plan to kill herself or she doesn't.  They both can't be true, and it is not helpful to keep repeating to myself, "There is no absolute truth, there is not absolute truth... ."  Either she has a suicide plan and is denying it or she doesn't. 

My dd has ODD and antisocial traits, and so she lies and manipulates a lot. She enjoys conning people so that she avoids responsibility.  She has a field day when she runs into someone who takes everything she says as valid truth.  It has not helped her toward wellness, but increased her behaviors and distorted thinking.  There is a place for empathy, respecting points of view and speaking to feelings, but there also needs to be a recognition of reality, cognition, truth, and reason.

Remember that therapists make this stuff up, and also don't have to live with it 24/7.  Living in reality means living in paradox.  It means speaking the truth in love; not denying truth or withholding love.  We must have both for health.

Your mileage may vary, but things are going much better at home since I tweaked some of the ideas set forth in DBT to fit my beliefs and experiences.  I guess even the recommendations can't be taken as absolute truth.   

What really helps one family may harm another.  I am pretty cautious about being prescriptive because of that. 

My daughter has no motivation for relationship improvement, and so I am the only one trying to make it better.  She is somewhat anti-social as well as borderline. So, "Everyone needs to work harder" is a wish, and a hope.   That one also exhausted me, as I worked harder and harder, and harder while my daughter chewed me up and spit me out.   I would be cautious about that one as well, especially if you are a conscientious person and a giver, as most of us are.  I would say that some of us need to work LESS hard, and accept the relationship for what it is. 

[jellibeans]

tristesse

I feel sometimes I live with a terrorist too. Maybe because we are the ones that are so guarded and on watch for what we say and do.

Could it be that your dd's anxeity is so bad she needs to ask you a lot of questions to soothe herself? Do you think she has trouble with transistioning? These two things are pretty strong in my dd. If I am going somewhere I try and tell her ahead of time so she can get use to the idea. She really doesn't care so much if I am going alone but she is concerned if we are going out somewhere. It is a fine line to walk... not telling her too early and not just springing it on her. Sometimes I don't even tell her when I am going out of town... .she call me and wonders where I am and says "well when were you going to tell me that" My dd tends to get into trouble if I am gone so it works for me.

I think what helps me is looking at what is triggering the behavior... .what is the underlying problem... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

It is recommended that:

•family members need to interpret things in the most benign way possible;

•there is no one or any absolute truth;

•everyone needs to try harder.

I wanted to mention that as I tried on some of these ideas, I found them to be absurd and stress-inducing. 

From your description of the situation, I can see how it would become stressful, and especially in extreme and clear situations it’s easy to see (at least for us, not always for the pwBPD) what did or didn’t happen.

The idea that there is no absolute truth is in itself a truth claim.

It’s a good thing to look at every teaching with a critical mind and see if it fits against one’s personal belief system also. And while I may agree with or reject certain philosophical ideas, I usually try to learn from different view-points.

In this case, whether I believe that there is absolute truth or not, I can still see that different people may have different perceptions and different experiences of reality. And that’s the key here.

I will give an example from my own life: it’s 66 degrees in the house, and I have just turned the heater on. My husband says: “What are you doing?” I say “Turning on the heat, it’s cold in here.” He says, “No, it’s not! It’s 66 degrees!” I say “Exactly! That’s cold!” Exact same objective reality, we even agree on the temperature. My personal perception of reality is that it’s cold. My husband’s perception of reality is that it’s comfortable.

In the less extreme situations, if we accept our part in the give and take, and are willing to see another's viewpoint, we may see the possibility (not a certainty) that our loved one may not always have nefarious reasons for their actions and words--it is a healing thing for our souls. And our different attitude can actually change the relationship in a positive way.

"Everyone needs to work harder" is a wish, and a hope. That one also exhausted me, as I worked harder and harder, and harder while my daughter chewed me up and spit me out.

I have been there also. When I learned how this dynamic worked, I realized that in this situation, working harder means working harder on my skills to recognize that I am doing too much. Working harder on enforcing and strengthening my boundaries, working harder on my assertiveness skills, working harder at tolerating the fact that my step-daughter is uncomfortable when healthy consequences follow her actions,

Working harder on letting my step-daughter pick up her own slack and solve her problems, and working harder on supporting her emotionally without rescuing her.

And also, working harder on empathy and being loving, while doing all of the above.

It takes a lot of effort to NOT enable, and NOT give in WHILE we support and love our child.

I hope that helps... .

It is a fine line to walk... not telling her too early and not just springing it on her.

I think what helps me is looking at what is triggering the behavior... .what is the underlying problem... .

Well put!

[MammaMia]

I believe theplotthickens has some very valid points.  PwBPD have an uncanny ability to know when someone is not being honest or is not being accurate.

A good dose of concise, truthful reality, if done properly, can get through to them.  However, once they feel you have deceived them ... .you become untrustworthy, which is impossible to reverse. 

[mama72]

Amen, theplotthicknes.

tristesse-I feel your pain. Not only do we as parents have to endure to the drama and pain from a child wBPD, we have to live with the aftermath of the emotional abuse. I struggle with resentment and anger, as well. There are consequences of bad behavior and bad treatment. If I find myself thinking negatively of past events, hurt feelings or deceptions, I try to focus on the day, sometimes hour, at hand. Try to find some joy in the moment. Does it always work? No, not always. But I do understand that I do have control over my feelings, and giving our children wBPD more control that what they already have, is destructive to our spirit.

Or maybe time is what heals the wound?

Blessings!

[tristesse]

I appreciate the input, it is always helpful and insightful.

I am trying to take one day at a time, hour by hour with constant reminders to myself that she is sick, that she hurts too, probably far more than I do, and that's why she behaves like she does. 

I think too, that I am going to try and find myself a T. I feel like I need the help with my own emotions, so it can't do any harm.

[HealingSpirit]

I think too, that I am going to try and find myself a T. I feel like I need the help with my own emotions, so it can't do any harm.

YES! Oh Tristesse, you will be so glad you did! We ALL need face-to-face support with our own feelings stemming from the BPD chaos.  I hope you can find a good T who teaches DBT. Learning DBT can help you AND your DD.

[theplotthickens]

I agree that finding out own support system, and therapist if possible, is ideal!  A therapist who "gets" BPD is great.  I struggle with unconditional love versus getting completely burned out and used.  It is so difficult to know what to do, and how to handle all of our grief, fears, and anger.

[Nana49]

I am very sorry that you are going through such a terrible time.  My situation has not reached the high level of stress that yours has, but wanted to share that I just finished reading Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder and the author gives lots of examples of what we can say to our children to convey boundaries and help us keep some of our sanity.  I found it to be a very easy read. Hopefully it can provide you with some tools to use.