Should I stay or should I go?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

thank you Indyan

what I want? I want what I call a normal relationship: respect, no rage outburst, no sensation of walking on eggshells, not afraid of his reaction that I find out of proportion, a relationship where everything is simple and quiet. I expect from a partner to be able to hear what I say, listen to how I feel, to accept that we can not like all the same things, that we can not agree on every subject, that we can be different but respecting each other in our individuality.

as i am realistic, I know that RS are not always going well, but if there is a real will from both partners to make it work, it can.   

bottom line, I want a RS less stressful and energy consuming... .I would really be able to go back to the life I had before him, and even if I would miss him a lot, I would feel a kind of relief of not being afraid of his reactions. With him I feel the "damn if you do, damn if you don't" ... .decouraging

[Isa_lala]

thank you Indyan

what I want? I want what I call a normal relationship: respect, no rage outburst, no sensation of walking on eggshells, not afraid of his reaction that I find out of proportion, a relationship where everything is simple and quiet. I expect from a partner to be able to hear what I say, listen to how I feel, to accept that we can not like all the same things, that we can not agree on every subject, that we can be different but respecting each other in our individuality.

as i am realistic, I know that RS are not always going well, but if there is a real will from both partners to make it work, it can.   

bottom line, I want a RS less stressful and energy consuming... .I would really be able to go back to the life I had before him, and even if I would miss him a lot, I would feel a kind of relief of not being afraid of his reactions. With him I feel the "damn if you do, damn if you don't" ... .decouraging

[Indyan]

Yes... .I got that, we're all there.

But, what can you play with cards in hand?

I'm not asking your wishes to Santa

I'm asking what you feel like doing RIGHT NOW.

Seeing him/not seeing him?

Being alone/seeing other people?

That sort of stuff.

Let's put it another way.

Do you feel forced to see him?

How would you react if a close friend reacted the way he does? Or a member of your family? That's PRECISELY answering to this that helped me recently.

You obviously feel bad because you have no boundaries in place. You've been FOGGED into not daring to have boundaries and act upon them.

[Isa_lala]

you are right again!

I feel that I don't have any control. I would like to ask my BF to start a therapy but we have spoken about that so many times that it is like it doesn't mean anything to him anymore... .

He never answers when I ask him to see someone. Now, he feels like if I always and only blame him. He thinks that I do have some improvement to make also. But when I want to discuss this matter, he goes away... .

Maybe I am just too tired ;-)

[Isa_lala]

I will try to reopen the discussion seriously... .

and I will tell him my limits. He won't like it, but too bad... .I have to get out of FOG :-)

[Indyan]

I will try to reopen the discussion seriously... .

and I will tell him my limits. He won't like it, but too bad... .I have to get out of FOG :-)

From my experience, talking does not help at all, it makes things worse. You'll get into bickering fights that lead nowhere.  I kept telling my BPD my limits, but that made absolutely NO difference. These are just words.

Reinforcing your boundaries is about what YOU DO when someone goes beyond them.

Again, if a good friend behaved the way your bf does, what would you do? See him/her less? Pick their call less? Hang up on them? Show less enthusiasm and start to move away from them?

pwBPD don't understand "go to T", they hear "I'll leave you if you don't".

Do what YOU feel is right. Let him come to the conclusion HIMSELF, whether it is going to T or changing his behaviour.

We are not responsible for their decisions, they are. That's the first HARD HARD HARD lesson to learn.

And believe me, I've learnt my lesson.

[Isa_lala]

What is demanding for me is to speak to my BF. As soon as he understands that I will give him limits or complain about something, he doesn't hear anymore... .So, how can i let him know what are the limits I want to put for myself and what I will do if he doesn't respect the limits?

I am sorry, I thing I am still in the fog (in both senses of the word... .) i am confused and need to clarify my thoughts,

[Indyan]

What is demanding for me is to speak to my BF. As soon as he understands that I will give him limits or complain about something, he doesn't hear anymore... .So, how can i let him know what are the limits I want to put for myself and what I will do if he doesn't respect the limits?

Don't speak to him. In the worst case scenario he will get mad. And in the best one he will agree... but then what?

What matters is ACTS.

Make a list of the things he does that trespass your "boundaries".

Then imagine what you would do if if had been a good friend/brother who had done each thing.

I'll give you an example from my life, although I'm really not in the best position to give advice.

I kept asking him to stop shouting in front of my D10. I told him it was not acceptable. I told him to leave when I was pregnant. I reproached him so many times having scared my daughter. Did that help in any way? Unfortunately not, because if saying it was enough to make him stop, he would have stopped it already.

In the end I asked him to warn me of his visit, so I could arrange for my D10 to be away. Of course, it reinforces his feeling of shame, but he couldn't refuse this, as no emotion is involved here. At first he actually got angry and said "It's my home, why should I warn you when I come over?" but then he sent a message saying he'd do it.

Now, when he's around, and if my D10 is around (not at her dad's), I'll stay away from him.

MY BOUNDARY is this now: avoiding contact between him and D10.

I've stopped asking him to change his behaviour.

Don't expect him to change. Do what's necessary for the unwanted behaviour to cease.

It he shouts on the phone, hang up on him, so you don't hear him anymore. If he criticizes your friends, leave the room and stop sharing your plans, reassuring him in vain, talking about your friends. These are just examples of course, there might not be appropriate at all. It's up to you.

I am sorry, I thing I am still in the fog (in both senses of the word... .)

[Isa_lala]

I feel stuck when he starts yelling at me when my son is sleeping... Cannot leave the appartement and leave my son behind. Cannot go into a room and lock the door, he will get furious. And he may wake up my son when shouting at me and I don't want my son to witness this kind of behaviour, he will be scared for sure. So, what do I do?

I really feel stuck.

[Indyan]

I feel stuck when he starts yelling at me when my son is sleeping... Cannot leave the appartement and leave my son behind. Cannot go into a room and lock the door, he will get furious. And he may wake up my son when shouting at me and I don't want my son to witness this kind of behaviour, he will be scared for sure. So, what do I do?

I really feel stuck.

You're surely not as stuck as I was, we lived together and I was pregnant. But I still told him to leave... .ok, that didn't work out. Actually it did for a while, but then he did it again.

He doesn't live there with you, he has his own appartment. That makes things a lot easier.

What would you do if a good friend of yours who slept at your house and shouted so loudly asked for sleeping over at your house again? Would you agree? Or would you say "no, you're too loud"?

Think of it.

Ok, it is more difficult to reinforce our boundaries when it's not from the beginning, just as we do with kids (when we don't say no, or we say it weakly, they get around the rule). But it's not impossible.

You can try to justify your "sudden" change in "rules" by something maybe? You've had enough. It's really gone too far... .whatever.

Does your son sleep elsewhere sometimes? It could be a way to reinforce a boundary. Your bf can only come over when your son's away. Or you only sleep at his place but he doesn't come to yours.

YOU have the choice. You're not as stuck as you think you are, get out of FOG!

[Isa_lala]

I know that when we want, we can... .

the thing is that he doesn't yell at me all the time (of course not!)

So do I tell him: "ok, we stay apart fo a week (for example) whenever you yell at me like that" ?

would it be a good idea?

[Indyan]

I know that when we want, we can... .

the thing is that he doesn't yell at me all the time (of course not!)

So do I tell him: "ok, we stay apart fo a week (for example) whenever you yell at me like that" ?

would it be a good idea?

No.

First, it sounds like a punishment, not a logical consequence of his actions, or something you do to shield yourself.

Two,

reinforcing your boundaries is not about TALKING but ACTING.

If you talk about it, it's probably that it doesn't come as obvious. We only state what is not obvious.

Then, your reaction depends on what you want to achieve.

Do you want to protect yourself from his anger?

Or your son?

What triggers him?

[Indyan]

What would you do if a good friend of yours who slept at your house and shouted so loudly asked for sleeping over at your house again? Would you agree?

Can you try and answer this please?

[Isa_lala]

I accepted such behaviours from a boss I have had for years until one day where I went to see him and I told him that such behaviours were not acceptable at the workplace and if it would happen again, I would leave the room because I don't want to stand it anymore.

Now that I experience that with my BF, I believe that I would not accept that from anyone without saying anything.

why I stand that with my BF? I don't know. Probably because I don't what to do. for me, stting my limits is to tell him what my limits are and what would happen if he crosses away.

and you know what? I think that he doesn't even realize that his behaviour is such agressive to me. I think he has always resolved his issues with rage, so he probably doesn't know what else to do when he is frustrated. And because I have accepted the unacceptable for the last 2 years, he probably thinks that I am ok with these behaviours

how do I change course now?

[Isa_lala]

and if for example I decide to not see him for a week after a behaviour I don't want anymore, he will get more furious. He will never think, oh I did something wrong. NO, he will think that I reject him and it will wake up some fears and will make him very, very mad... .

sorry, but I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel...

[Indyan]

stting my limits is to tell him what my limits are and what would happen if he crosses away.

This is is what you need to change.

Telling is not enough, and not even required, as I said it will probably trigger an abandonment fear in him.

Just decide on what to do if he crosses the boundary - and do it, always.

[Indyan]

and if for example I decide to not see him for a week after a behaviour I don't want anymore, he will get more furious. He will never think, oh I did something wrong. NO, he will think that I reject him and it will wake up some fears and will make him very, very mad... .

sorry, but I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel...

Your boundary shouldn't be in order to make him change (even if this would be a good side effect ), but to protect yourself.

It's like a musician shouldn't make songs for money only, but he might get rich if the song is really good 

I can't say more than what I've said. Maybe you need to read again and try to apply "setting and reinforcing boundaries" to something specific... .good luck.

[Isa_lala]

I just read again the part of the R. Kreger book where bounderies are discussed and I saw that when you decide what limit to give to your BPD partner (i.e. not yelling at me) you have to tell it to him/her. So will I.

and I will have to decide what to do if he doesn't respect me in this.

[Isa_lala]

thank you again Indyan, you are of great help and I appreciate very much your words.

Sorry to not seem receptive to what you said, it is just that I really don't master how to deal with my BPD unacceptable behaviours. I feel like a young kid, without any power on my life... .

[Isa_lala]

I think that I may have made everyone goes away from this discussion 

but something happened last night that i need to speak about:

I think what bothers me most about my relationship is temper tantrums by my BF, which are unpredictable and sometimes very strong. When they are directed at other people (like when driving), it stresses me, scared me, but I can manage. When they are directed at me or the children, it affects me much more.

I had decided to talk to him and express what I feel when he gets angry with me and insults me because, as more time passes, more it affects me and I want him to understand that this leads me gently towards the exit door... .

But last night, he was at his place with his boy, doing homework and he called me while very, very angry he was FURIOUS! He also continued to yell on his son while speaking with me, finally hung up because I asked him to calm down.

I cannot watch that without doing anything. I'm an adult with a fairly good confidence in myself, a solid self-esteem and it affects me when it is directed towards me. So imagine his barely 8 years old son who already has a considerable lack of confidence in himself compared to my son... .my BF is now doing to his son what his family did to him when he was young: undermine his son's self-esteem... .I have to intervene.

I need to tell him he must learn to control his anger, and quickly. That cannot wait. If he doesn’t want to do it for me (to not lose me) he must do it for his son.

Any advice for me? I don't want him to think he is a bad father as he IS a good one.

[RunForest]

Hello there Isa_lala, I read your conversation and feel like Indian about "punishment" of one week apart, that is to avoid according to me too... .

In general it's better to find a little thing to validate in his behavior , staying genuine and sincere of course. Than to criticise... .

Myself now I hang down the phone when I hear unfair things, and I litteraly run away when he is having a non respect behavior , well I do a lot of sport at the moment... .

But what makes it easy is that we do not live together and no kid no more living with us because my kids are adults.

That works except when I am with him in my car , the only thing to do is to park, and go for a walk/run to calm (me) down, I notice my brand new "running" behavior is leaving him speechless  


PS : Above all hangs up the phone if he yells like that on his son because it is inadmissible. You will not make him learn to control himself... .but shut down the conversation each times it occurs.

[Isa_lala]

When he yells at me on the phone, I usually hang up. But he can call back in a compulsory way, so I answer the phone if not it is worse, he gets more furious.

I Should probably not answer. But once, he was at his place, his son was sleeping and I didn't answer the phone because he was not able to stop yelling at me, he came to my place, leaving his son alone because he was too furious... .

So, leave the house and the boys behind when he is furious, no, I can't even if I know that it is what I should do.

Rationally, I don't think he could harm the boys, but we see so many horror stories in the news of parents killing their children, that I cannot remain rational when I see him that furious... .

[RunForest]

OK, is he physically violent with you? I think this is the ultimate limit not to tolerate.

But yelling on you this way is violence on woman , you shouldn't stay in that relationship.

And as we cannot save everyone, he will save himself if he wants then.

[Isa_lala]

he never has been violent at me. However, when he got furious, he can pitch things or hit the wall with his hands. I know it sounds quite the same... . 

[pallavirajsinghani]

Hello Dear Sister: 

Would you please read the following and see what I am seeing?

I don't want him to think he is a bad father as he IS a good one.

He IS a bad father.  No good father has such lack of discipline.  He IS a bad boyfriend.  No GOOD boyfriend does what he does to you.

You can understand his problems.  You can also forgive.  You can be compassionate.  You can accept.

The point is, should you?  We have an ancient Indian tradition of 'Sati" where the widows were meant to immolate themselves at the pyre of their dead husbands.  And why so?  Because the men in the family did not want to share the property with her.  Now, here is the interesting bit:  The widow was encouraged to do so, she was told that it was a holy act, that her devotion to her husband sent her immediately to heaven and there like a good wife, she will stay with her husband in bliss forever.  The procession that carried her to the funeral pyre was amazing.  She was dressed in bridal attire, she was pampered, she was adored, she was "worshipped" like a goddess.  Her act was considered divine.  Was the act of her own choice?  Not at all... .this was insidious brainwashing and coercion at its best... .or should I say at its worst?

So my question to you is this:  What is pressuring you to self-immolate in the fire of his rage?  What divine and glorified stature do you expect to achieve in your mind?  Divinity resides in all of us... .can you even imagine the hurt you may cause your maker by hurting that divine element, that sacredness of being, that soul in yourself?

His son can be protected in different ways... .record his rages... .(post another link about recording)... .take it to the child services.  Let the experts handle it.

You have the best thoughts in your heart... .but sadly, you do not have the clinical skills.  You are not a physically strong man who can treat him the same way he treats you... .you cannot meet his fire by fire.  You cannot beat him up, insult him, let loose a tirade of invectives... .it is just not the right, the moral way.

However, you can prevent yourself from becoming a living, walking "Sati". 

Morality is not the synonymous with self-immolation.

To understand him is not synonymous with permission of toxicity.

To protect his son... .is not synonymous with deflecting his rage toward yourself in order to prevent him from targeting his son.

I am not saying that you leave him... .that is entirely your choice and I as well as the board are totally respectful of choices our members make.

What I am saying is that it is critical that you understand your own limitations.  And your own limitations are:  1) You love him, you are not his psychologist/psychiatrist.  2)  Your complete love... .even laying your bleeding heart at this feet, is not a cure for mental disorder... .love has clinical limits... .it cannot cure mental illness.  3) Your time and energy is limited... .you are a biological being, with biological limitations... .you can only devote a child like adult a certain amount of energy before you start to take it away from your actual child.

It is all right if you believe that he is not abusive because he does not hit you.  It is only important for you right now to understand that your mind, your heart, your soul is acting like an abused person. 

So please stay with us, allow us to be your balm, allow us to comfort you, to guide you whereever we can in this journey.

Before you can blossom, you have to survive... .physically, emotionally, spiritually and financially. 

Let us enfold you in our comforting embrace and slowly let us together begin a process of healing together.  All of us are fellow travellers at different points on the same road to recovery and rejoicing.

God Bless.

[Indyan]

To protect his son... .is not synonymous with deflecting his rage toward yourself in order to prevent him from targeting his son.

Very true.

As sad as it may be, your are not responsible for his behaviour toward his son. If his son is in danger, you can call the police, contact child welfare, tell the child's mother or other relatives.

But there is no point trying to reason a mentally ill person. The more you'll do this, the less you'll be able to make use of the above options (as he will know it comes from you).

Something crucial here: is he ill or not? Two options:

1) Either he is not, and it is an "excuse" for you to forgive unforgiveable things

2) He is ill and your attitude towards him is inappropriate. You communicate with him as if he was sane.

I know this may sound provocative, but I've been through this myself. You cannot say he is ill and try to bring him back to his senses. You see what I mean?

By definition a mentally ill person can't control and understand some things, although they appear to try sometimes.

[Isa_lala]

you are both soo right!  :'(

you know what keeps me from alerting child welfare? it's because the mother is worse. She has quite a temper even if she is not mentally ill (as far as I know) but at 35, she behaves like a 15 year-old teenager and doesn't offer a good environment for his son.

But I won't let ig go either. I will see what I can do.

pallavirajsinghani, you are right, there is something that makes me accept the unacceptable. I definitely know that i behave the opposite way of how I should with him, reinforcing his bad behaviours. Why do I do that? no idea. I am apparently looking for my way to heaven 

I am so confused... .

[pallavirajsinghani]

Darlin':  That's why counseling is so good.  Counseling is not the same thing as therapy.  Counseling is talking to an expert who is like a sounding board, who can guide you into understanding yourself.  Only after that understanding can a counselor help you develop skills to attain whatever give you a sense of fulfillment and joy.

So please do not hesitate to seek out counselors that have some experience in "co-dependency"; "enabling behavior."

For there are many factors that could be in play... .he could be closet gay---so deeply in denial that it erupts as rage against all woman kind and anyone and everyone else; he could have lesions in his brain, he could have been molested... .point I am making is that you do not know what is causing his behavior.  A normal human mind tends to look for reason, for logic... .and you may be rationalizing it as just anger, or just this or just that... .and worst, slowly you are in danger of believing that you deserve it... .and through you, your innocent and sacred child deserves it too.

So don't even try to understand yourself without any help, because when the mind is in a state of crises, one can lead oneself to self-delusions--that perhaps it is moral for you to tolerate all dysfunction, perhaps it is your fate, perhaps you are bad and deserve it, perhaps it is to prove your own tolerance level... .a certain type of twisted strength... .any and all factors can be at play.

Understanding of the self should come before understanding of another person--mentally disordered or not.  For in a plane that is fast losing oxygen, you need to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on the child... .the chances of you and the child's survival are the greatest when you take care of yourself first.  Sounds selfish?  It definitely used to sound selfish to me... .until I understood the inner value, the dignity, the worth of the self... .and also the practical reasons.

Mom not doing good?  Baby definitely not gonna go good... .for the sake of your child, your sacrifice is not becoming a Sati, but to prevent yourself from becoming one.

So, do not hesitate to research about counseling available to you.

[Isa_lala]

thank you again for your message pallavirajsinghani

I have a program offered by the company I work for that is free and confidential. I am already speaking with someone who helps me feel better. I may contact a psychologist I know who focuses on BPD. She could definitely help me.

I feel ok, not too depressed. I was a little depressed last spring because of this relationship, but now, I feel less engaged. I feel more detached from the issues we have. I definetely don't think that I deserve any of his behaviours. I strongly believe he has BPD and that it's why he doesn't control his emotions. I know he can do it in his daily routine, but not with me because it gets too emotional. I don't try to find him excuses, I think this way only to protect me, to not feel the way you describe

I am more disillusioned, like stoic a bit. I am more trying to figure what are my major bounderies, determining what I want for me, for my son than to blame me for my failed relationship. Of course, we learn from bad experience so I will probably benefit from all of that soon or later.

please, keep help me to see more clearly in order to make the best decision.

[pallavirajsinghani]

Do understand also that decision making is a process-at first your intuition tells you what to do... .only after some time does the intuition and the words come together and then comes implementation of the decision.

SO:

1)  Your intuition may be very gently telling you already what your decision is.

2)  A counselor will help you put your own intuitive decision into words.

3)  Then will come implementation of the decision.\

So, it is not as though you will suddenly have an epiphany... .it will be more like a slow simmering conviction.

Be patient with yourself... .you are very bright and intelligent ... .and now on track of becoming the wise one.  :-)

[Isa_lala]

reinforcing your boundaries is not about TALKING but ACTING.

If you talk about it, it's probably that it doesn't come as obvious. We only state what is not obvious.

You are so right Indyan. I have told him for months that I couldn't stand anymore the way he talks to me when he is upset. Many times, I thought I made my point but at the end of the day, I am back to square one, soon or later I have to repeat again the same thing. I told him again today that I still love him but if he keeps getting very upset that often, I won't be able to continue. He seemed to understand. But guess what? I am quite sure that tomorrow, he will act like if haven't said anything.

I know I am fed up with him being upset so often but because I don't know what to do to make him stop , I feel stuck. Do I have to leave him for good?

I will try some tips I was given and I will see how it goes. I am just wondering if it is not too late. I have been coping withhis rage outburst for 2 years now... .