Bpdw took kids from our home tonight... Is there any legal recourse?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My BPDw wife after a 3 week build up of tension, told me tonight to leave the home.  I said I would not leave the home and she said I will leave the home and take the kids with me (one of our children is on a ventilator).  What were my options?  Is that allowed. 

A similar situation happened last year in that I said she could not take the kids and it became a shouting match and very unsettling for the kids.  I didn't want that to happen and just gave them all hugs before they left. 

She knows how much I love the children and really didn't think she would follow through.  This time I just said fine inorder not to bring chaos to group.  I have no idea where they are?  or where they are spending the night?

[Sluggo]

My BPDw wife after a 3 week build up of tension, told me tonight to leave the home.  I said I would not leave the home and she said I will leave the home and take the kids with me (one of our children is on a ventilator).  What were my options?  Is that allowed. 

A similar situation happened last year in that I said she could not take the kids and it became a shouting match and very unsettling for the kids.  I didn't want that to happen and just gave them all hugs before they left. 

She knows how much I love the children and really didn't think she would follow through.  This time I just said fine inorder not to bring chaos to group.  I have no idea where they are?  or where they are spending the night?

[ForeverDad]

A general overview that I came to understand is this:  You both have parenting rights but without a court order they are not defined in any detail.  While the police will probably be agreeable to do well-child visits to confirm the children are relatively safe, they won't intervene or assist you to see the children (or assist her to see the children if they are with you) without a written court order in hand.  They may ask, they may apply a measure of guilting and pressure, but they won't intervene or assist.  (That's in my area, yours may be different.)

First order of business:  Get legal consultations with a few family law attorneys.  Today.  Find out where you stand legally in your local area, some strategies, etc.  A special needs child is involved and that complicates things.  She may try to grab the initiative and file allegations against you and try to get the house back.  Frankly, I am surprised she was the one who left.  Many here have experienced the spouse call the police and finding a way to get us forced out or carted off.  Do not agree to move out, right now it is probably legal leverage.  A father can't afford to 'gift away' any advantages, however slight.

In my case, I was the one who called the police, but still they asked me to hand our sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  I'll never know for sure if I was about to be carted away and arrested for the rest of the weekend since our son shrieked and clung to me tighter.  What child won't go to his mother?  So my child 'saved' me that day.

Do you have any proof or documentation she is the conflictual spouse/parent?  (recordings, witnesses who will step forward, journals, planners, etc)

On the other hand... .

She may return once some time has passed.  If that happens, good.  But still follow through with seeking legal advice from multiple family law attorneys.  You need that.  But keep it strictly confidential!  No receipts to be found, no letters or bills mailed to the house, etc.  Loose lips sink ships.  If you reveal that you sought out legal advice then she might feel you've raised the level of conflict to a higher level and respond by upping the ante even more.  (However, take note that she just upped the ante on you, last year she didn't leave but yesterday she did.)

Yes, you do have a right to confidential advice.  Don't let her interrogate you or guilt you later to 'confess' you went to lawyers.  It would likely trigger her.

[david]

My ex asked me to leave in early 2007. I said no. Her mood swings were extreme. I have stepsons (her kids from her first marriage). They sat me down and told me I needed to divorce their mom. Needless to say I was not thinking clearly back then. Ex filed to have me removed from the house. It was denied. She had an attorney. She showed up the next day with the police and had them convinced I had 5 minutes to vacate the premises ? I literally was in the driveway calling my attorney. I handed the phone to one of the officers and my atty had to explain to the officer I was not to be evicted. It gets crazier after that.

The courts awarded ex primary custody even though my SS's testified their mom was not fit along with other things. One thing that helped her is that she took the kids with her when she left. If she left the kids the courts would very likely given me primary custody because it would have been viewed as abandonment. I got to stay in the house since ex left (ie abandoned the property).

I would strongly recommend talking to several atty's. One, you need to gather info on how your county operates in this area. Two, each atty you talk to can not be used by your wife. It's a learning curve.

Focus on the kids and what is best for them.

And very important document, document, document. I only communicate with ex through email (documentation). I always have an audio recorder and a video recorder with me to protect myself from false allegation. Ex left in 2007. I had a protection order filed against me in 2007, 2008, and 2009. Ex, in 2010, falsely charged me with assault after that. I was found guilty of disorderly conduct, put in prison for two weeks, and lost my job for at least five years until I can get my record expunged. When I got out of prison I bought the video and the audio recorder. I let ex know. I haven't been charged with anything since that time except through emails. We have been in court since 2010, been through a custody eval, and we are currently ordered to go through co parent counseling. She has complained in every situation that I am breaking the law in my state because I am not allowed to record.

[Sluggo]

First order of business:  Get legal consultations with a few family law attorneys.  Today.  Find out where you stand legally in your local area, some strategies, etc.  A special needs child is involved and that complicates things.  She may try to grab the initiative and file allegations against you and try to get the house back.  Frankly, I am surprised she was the one who left.  Many here have experienced the spouse call the police and finding a way to get us forced out or carted off.  Do not agree to move out, right now it is probably legal leverage.  A father can't afford to 'gift away' any advantages, however slight.

In my case, I was the one who called the police, but still they asked me to hand our sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  I'll never know for sure if I was about to be carted away and arrested for the rest of the weekend since our son shrieked and clung to me tighter.  What child won't go to his mother?  So my child 'saved' me that day.

Do you have any proof or documentation she is the conflictual spouse/parent?  (recordings, witnesses who will step forward, journals, planners, etc)

Forever Dad,

Thanks for jumping in on this.  Yes, when this happened last year I started documenting and voice recording.  I still have all of that.  I didn't start voice recording again until about a week ago.  I am kicking myself as a couple of nights ago she said she would that my wife said she would give me full custody but the voice recorder had stopped.  It did pick up all the yelling and screaming before.  Not so incriminating though.  I do have the pics from the bruises she left on my arm and told my T about it when that happened (about 16 months ago). 

I had talked to a couple of lawyers last year and found one I liked but I didn't do anything after initial consult as things got better.  I will touch base with her today. 

u reveal that you sought out legal advice then she might feel you've raised the level of conflict to a higher level and respond by upping the ante even more.  (However, take note that she just upped the ante on you, last year she didn't leave but yesterday she did.)

Yes, you do have a right to confidential advice.  Don't let her interrogate you or guilt you later to 'confess' you went to lawyers.  It would likely trigger her.

Thanks for the advice.   I appreciate the encouragement. 

[Sluggo]

David,

How awful.  Scary to think it could go that far.  

She has called and email this morning.  I haven't responded.  She sent a lady to our house to get some items for our child on a vent, it appears she is at a local hotel.  My wife is asking me to leave the house.  

My father, going through Chemo, started living with us back in late August.  He does all the driving for the kids.  Nurse was in the house yesterday when wife left with children.  I hope my father living there may help with the witnessing of events and even his experiences that he has seen when she is angry.  :)on't know how much that can carry as he is my Dad and his allgenicies ultimately are with me.  But with that said, they have a really good relationship.  

[david]

My story is much crazier than what I told but it would take pages and pages to write.

I think the fact that your father is living with you and has a medical issue and the fact that your son is on a ventilator would have some serious weight in court to remain in the house.

Does the ventilator require specific monitoring ? If so is it easy to duplicate or is there a significant advantage to keep him in the home ? If so then an atty can file an emergency hearing to resolve it as quickly as possible. Also, without knowing where he is how can you possibly know that. I think a good atty would have an easy task of this because of the circumstances. Do you have evidence showing you were the major caretaker for your son ? If so, things would move very quickly. The best interest of the children is supposed to trump everything else.

Giving the right circumstances she could be charged with reckless endangerment. I'm not sure if I am overreaching here but these thoughts are crossing my mind.

[momtara]

Don't leave the house.  You have rights.

"she said she would that my wife said she would give me full custody but the voice recorder had stopped.  It"

I don't know that that would have helped you anyway.

Taking a kid on a ventilator to a hotel is weird.  It may help you in a custody battle.

I think you feel sorry for her and want it to work, but time to see a lawyer and start documenting legally.

[ForeverDad]

If things get more tense and you want to contact your children you might want to consider having an officer do it, they can call her and do a "well check" visit to confirm the children are okay.

If she is determined to get you out the only way is for her to file a protection/restraining order or file for separation or divorce.  The first one is real nasty but too often a disordered spouse will have no compunction against lying or exaggerating to get what he or she FEELS is needed.  Reality is distorted to fit the feelings.  Be aware, beware.

If she doesn't have a more permanent destination it may become "a race to the court house" since bringing the child back to the home is probably going to happen one way or another.  Either (1) she returns and makes nice, (2) she returns and makes nice for a little while until she can figure out a way to get you out with a protection/restraining order, (3) she files for separation or divorce to get you out or (4) you file for separation or divorce to get him back to the house.  Do you notice she has multiple options and you have only one?

You better have that recording device ready for a lot of use.  Right now is quite possibly separation time and therefore this is a period especially prone to false allegations or entrapment to make you appear abusive.  From now on NEVER yell at her, act in an aggressive way or even touch her roughly.  There have been stories of husbands/fathers cornered in a room or hallway and merely pushing past to get away morphed into allegations of being attacked, thrown against the wall, down the stairs, etc.  Repeat, never say or do anything that could be the least bit twisted into an allegation.  And of course a woman's allegations, especially if she has hurt herself so she can claim it is 'evidence' of abuse, are hot button concerns these days and will almost certainly get a reaction from the first responders... .and off you go for a weekend in jail.

Me?  I eventually had three recorders, I never knew when one would fill up, the batteries would need recharging or it just couldn't be found quickly.  Good thing I had pockets, she would have freaked if she noticed me holding a recorder.

Me?  I think I narrowly escaped being carted off, two officers responded to my 911 call, one a canine unit, barking dog and all!  Though I had called, I was asked to hand our sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  When he shrieked and clung to me even tighter, the officer looked at me for a long moment, said "work it out" and they left.  My son 'saved' me that day.  Months later my divorce attorney said the local policy is to always cart away one of the spouses in a domestic dispute call.  I guess they didn't want to take me with a child tightly attached and didn't want to take his mother either.

Be especially careful this weekend and in the weeks to come, things could go south in minutes.  Keep any local support you have on speed dial.  Keep your recorder charged, downloaded and nearby at all times.  Get a spare.  Keep some cash with a TRUSTED friend or relative in case you need bailing out.  I'm serious.  It could calm down - or boil over.  No one knows which right now.

[momtara]

I actually had two recorders in case one stopped, he noticed one, etc.  Extreme, but gave me a lot of confidence. 

[livednlearned]

I'm sorry you're going through this right now. It's awful when it escalates like that and you aren't sure what you can/can't do in the heat of the moment. The fact that she took the kids makes me think she has already talked to a lawyer and knows what she's doing.

You might want to make it job #1 to talk to a lawyer tomorrow first thing in the morning and file something quickly. There is not necessarily a legal advantage to filing first, but I think there is a psychological one. You want to drive the narrative and storyline going forward, not her.

Don't worry too much about not capturing what she said about giving you full custody. The sad truth about family court is that there is no smoking gun. Volume of documentation is more important than any one item, in my experience. The more you can document a pattern, the better.

Be really careful right now about reconciling. She is in a defensive crouch and ready to do something to get the upper hand, and that could mean a serious false allegation that you cannot disprove. She will likely make all kinds of false allegations, so get ready for that. And keep track of everything that goes on in these next few days. I kept everything organized in a Google calendar, which will let you print it out as an agenda so things show up in a chronological timeline. Your memory of what happened when will get fuzzy because emotions get super jacked up and it's hard to remember clearly. A timeline really helps because you'll be able to calmly refer to facts whereas she will be spinning all kinds of falsehoods that won't match reality.

My situation was opposite of yours. I left with my son. One of the things my lawyer told me is to make sure I let S13 talk to his dad right away. Otherwise he could've made the case I was kidnapping or trying to alienate/estrange S13. So email your wife and ask to see the kids right away. Document your concern for their health and well-being. She won't be able to stop herself from emailing all kinds of horrible things about you. Keep in mind that everything you email her will probably show up in court, so don't call her names, or apologize, or take ownership for anything. Focus on the kids, and only the kids, and how they are doing, and are they ok, and can you talk to them, etc.