What do I say to OCPD father?

[Ziggiddy]

A few months back,  uBPDm asked why I had been withdrawn from her when we used to be so close (read: codependent.) I told her that I felt she had problems in regulating her emotions and that was why I had reduced contact wit her. She was convinced my brother (scapegoat) had turned me away from her and didn't hear my explanation. She was in turns appealing and sulking and smearing - everything but accept responsibility and more importantly wanted me to help her 'get better' despite not really believing anything was wrong with her.

I called a truce of sorts and allowed some interaction between us as well as my kids with her.

As a result, she and my dad took my kids for a day out.

Instead of observing my request that they be returned at a certain time, my father (the henchman) rang 4 hours late to say they would be another hour and a half.

Again this was not unexpected by me.

What WAS a surprise was the way my father behaved to my D8.

He was very upset with her as she had not gone to the toilet before the return trip despite him asking her to 3 tomes.

As a result, he had had to pull over and let her out halfway to go to the toilet.

When they arrived here he was quite snarky about it, embarrassing her in front of her cousin whom she idolises.

I was livid and for once let fly with my temper telling him he was expecting perfect behaviour from a child. That children were not small adults.

he got in a huff and then they left.

i reiterated my complaints to mother who, for a change was listening.

This because she loves to have something to harass him with.

Anyhow I told her a heap of stuff - mainly about his abusive conduct to us kids as children, his utter neglect of me as an adult as well sundry other things.

I asked her not to 'make him apologise' which is her classic MO.

As usual, she ignored this request and today he called and said "You're upset with me. Can I come around and talk to you?"

I am astonished because he never contacts me and has shown only dutiful public attention to my kids.

Also because he has done it off his own bat and quickly whereas my mother STILL has made no move to resolve conflict between us, let alone ask to come and speak to me about it

Now my feelings are all tangled up and I do not know at all what to think or say.

i want the confrontation for the sake of the little kid that was who is remorseful and sad that telling him about the abuse will upset him.   

I know, right?

What do I say to him?

[Harri]

Hi Zig.   

What do you want to say to him?  What does Little Zig want to say?  Let her talk but through the adult you so your message does not get lost in emotions. 

We can hash out specifics here if that will help.  I think though that you will know what to say in the moment.  You just need to allow yourself to do so. 

So what are your thoughts?

[Kwamina]

Hi Ziggiddy

What WAS a surprise was the way my father behaved to my D8.

He was very upset with her as she had not gone to the toilet before the return trip despite him asking her to 3 tomes.

As a result, he had had to pull over and let her out halfway to go to the toilet.

When they arrived here he was quite snarky about it, embarrassing her in front of her cousin whom she idolises.

I was livid and for once let fly with my temper telling him he was expecting perfect behaviour from a child. That children were not small adults.

he got in a huff and then they left.

I am sorry that your father treated your daughter like this. I understand your anger and am glad you stood up for your daughter. Not that losing your temper is something I generally advise, but considering the circumstances it's quite understandable. What surprised you most about your father's behavior? That he did it at all or more that he did it to your daughter? How would you generally classify your father's behavior towards your children?

... .today he called and said "You're upset with me. Can I come around and talk to you?"

I am astonished because he never contacts me and has shown only dutiful public attention to my kids.

Also because he has done it off his own bat and quickly whereas my mother STILL has made no move to resolve conflict between us, let alone ask to come and speak to me about it

Now my feelings are all tangled up and I do not know at all what to think or say.

i want the confrontation for the sake of the little kid that was who is remorseful and sad that telling him about the abuse will upset him.   

I know, right?

Have you had this confrontation with your dad? If you have, how did it go?

What do I say to him?

Just say the truth is my advice. It might help to re-read the material about S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N. to help mentally prepare yourself. You call your mom uBPD, how would you classify your dad? (other than the henchman  )

[Ziggiddy]

Hi Harri and Kwamina,

Thanks for replying to my post.

I am sorry I didn't come back and add to it but I have felt like I've been in  awar zone or something.

Yes i had the confrontation Kwamina although it was not confrontational at all in the sense of the word that I think in.

I had told him not to bring Mum because I wouldn't feel free to speak with her hovering around so I get a call from her about 20 minutes before Dad arrives telling me he is on his way - he just dropped her at a nearby shopping centre.

I was so mad. She KNEW she wasn't supposed to come so bent the rules by coming nearby. I was also mad at HIM for not sayoing no to her and leaving her at home. So I get trumped again. I a still upset about that part.

basically I did what you said, Kwamina. I told him the truth. I said I have CPTSD. He asked if it was his fault. I hedged and said the constant beltings as a child didn't help. To my shock he completely agreed with me. He said it was unnecessary and too much. he even apologised.

Previously Woolspinner warned me that I may feel  a sudden depletion afterwards after being mad for so long and she was quite right.

We spent several hours going over a lo-ot of things the most important of which were the ^ above and why he never once ever came to visit me once I left the city. Why he never called or wrote. Why he had zero interest in my kids. He said "It simply never occurred to him."

THAT is what's breaking me in two now.

It simply never occurred to him.

I don't even know what that means.

[Ziggiddy]

I just reread that - Harri - that was so kind of you to invite me to prepare here. i confess I have been in war time mode and had an immature response which has been to shrink inside myself and 'go to the trenches' My thinking has been all self protective and paranoid. Suspicious. I cannot stop the negative self talk cannot stop from believing all the old voices  - you're not important you don't matter you're a burden no one wants you why don't you just go away?

I can't figure out what I did or didn't do to make things this way? I can't figure out what to do to stop them beinf this way. I can balrely just toerate going through it.

Kwamina, the surprise. Well the surprise was this: that I had never seen it so clearly. That he had shamed me in the same way fpr SO many years. i wet the bed till I was 11 and I'd still be terrified to wake my folks up to tell them. I had a plastic sheet on my bed till then. They loved to tell people about it.

And the memory of my brother getting flogged because he wet his nappy. HIS NAPPY for crying out loud. And why? because he'd just been changed. How damned inconvenient.

I am just overflowing with emotion right now.  GRRRRRRR

[Turkish]

That's inexcusable that your father did that to you, Ziggiddy. Disciplining children is one thing, but shaming is abusive.

This past summer, my uBPDx spanked S5 (then S4) because he peed his pants while they were at a party out of town. She was angry and silent most of the hour's ride back. Then she realized that she overreacted and lapsed into depression. Of course then S4 was enmeshed in her crying,."I'll try to do better mommy." Can you say emotional incest?

Not to hijack your thread... .but he's still peeing the bed about every other night. I got a pee monitor (senses moisture then vibrates and alarms), and it's kind of working. I think he messed with the batteries last week, and he awoke crying and soaking wet. Instead of going old school and rubbing his face in the sheets, I tried to valdate him, got him changed, and then let him sleep in my bed. Do you have any behavioral tips besides validating him?

You know, before I came to this site, I probably would have fallen back to the "shame game." I'm sorry that happened to you, Zig.

[Harri]

Hi Zig.  First let me say that I am so very proud of you for talking with your father like you did and for telling your mom why you have distanced yourself and that she was not welcome.  The fact that they both bent the agreement by having her nearby is a lesson for the future right?  Be angry for sure, but remember it too.

Of course you went to the trenches and are in self-protect mode.  You had a huge emotional release by having your conversation with your father and even with what you told your mother.  I agree with Wools that there can be a huge emotional release and I think too that when we finally get the validation we longed for for so long, even as limited in a way as it was from your father, that it can also send us into an emotional tailspin.  I know it worked that way for me after my father let me know he knew about how sick my mother was.  It was devastating and validating all at the same time and it left me wondering "what NOW?  What do I hold onto Now?"  The answer to that, for me, is self-validation, though I am still working on that.

It is interesting to me that you were able to let loose when it came to protecting your own daughter... .seemingly without a thought or the nervousness you experienced in the build up to your talk with your father.  I see no problem with letting your temper fly when it comes to protecting your own child, even, or especially for Little Zig.  You can do that and not be raging or abusive    If you have been holding things in for a long time, chances are they are going to come out a bit sideways.  It's okay, we can work on that part as needed right?  The important part is giving yourself the freedom to voice what you have held within you so long and to let Little Zig see and hear you doing that.  Grace and panache will come with practice.

I cannot stop the negative self talk cannot stop from believing all the old voices  - you're not important you don't matter you're a burden no one wants you why don't you just go away?

I can't figure out what I did or didn't do to make things this way? I can't figure out what to do to stop them beinf this way. I can balrely just toerate going through it.

Okay, so let's try something different.  Rather than trying to stop the negative talk and shut it down, write it out, here or in private, makes no difference.  Just let it out until the tears are falling and you can write no more.  Then, go back and write a reply to Little Zig (and it is probably her running those old scripts that helped her survive back then) and tell her exactly what you would tell your own daughter or anyone here.  I am going to get even more bossy and tell you that you did nothing to cause them to behave this way and there is nothing you could have done to stop them.  You were at their whim and their mercy and they were horribly wrong in the way they treated you and talked to you.  You did not deserve that.  You are wonderful and precious and a treasure and they, because of their flaws and their deficits, missed out on experiencing and loving *you*.  They are at fault Zig.  Take the words you have shared with me and others here and apply them to *you* my friend.  You are worthy and deserving of every bit of love and compassion that you are able to share so well here.

One thing I want to add is that it seems that wetting the bed and other toilet training issues are a common thread in kids who were abused.  I had written elsewhere that my brother had problems with that until he was 6 or 7 but i realize now that he was much older than that.  I was 6 or 7 and I saw the humiliation my mother would heap upon him.  As a result, I had the opposite problem as a kid.  The memories hurt and it hurts to know that you were treated in such a way.  Humiliation/shaming is soo damaging.  I am not sure how to 'fix' that other than to let yourself get good and angry about it... .  you did not deserve one bit of what they dished out to you.  I am angry as hell for you.  I am angry with your parents and with the people they told... .those people who remained silent.

Zig, the emotions, the self-talk and the paranoia and suspicion... .just ride them through.  Write them out, draw them, whatever... .and sit with it.  Then write it, draw it again and again.   

[Woolspinner2000]

Hey Ziggiddy,

Here's a hug for you. 

Can Little Wools come and sit with Little Zig, just to keep her company? She likes to sit and listens well and doesn't mind being quiet, especially when someone else is hurting. I think Mr. Potts should be invited to.

I have my own way of dealing with encounters like yours. Unfortunately, I head down my own mental road to a place I call 'Stupidville.' The exit ramp to this place has large signs and arrows pointing the way, and seems like a magnet draws me there. The fuel to get me there is shame, toxic in it's very nature, and it is powerful. What triggers it for me? Something like what you experienced, a memory, a feeling from the past or remembered words. My reaction is  unconscious and my body says, "Threat!" I go into hiding and think unkind things of myself. It's an awful place to be.

I was just reviewing the 13 Steps to managing emotional flashbacks : www.pete-walker.com/flashbackManagement.htm. Would there be some help there for you?

I'm glad you are safe. You'll get through this. We are all cheering you on.


Wools

[Woolspinner2000]

Turkish,

Instead of going old school and rubbing his face in the sheets, I tried to valdate him, got him changed, and then let him sleep in my bed. Do you have any behavioral tips besides validating him?

Well done! 

Sometimes my S had trouble waking up in the middle of the night and wouldn't make it to the bathroom. He'd come down to wake me up and tell me he'd had an accident. There were times when I was grumpy from being so tired, but not grumpy with him. I remember handling it different ways at different times, but almost always I saw that he felt so bad and ashamed on his own. I didn't want to add to it so made a great effort not to, and I validated him as well. We might talk about the dreams he had right before the accident as a means to help him wake up and recognize that he was dreaming he needed to go to the bathroom.

If we were really tired, I'd have him help me make up a little bed on a sleeping bag on the floor and tell him we'd clean things up in the morning. Often I'd ask him to help me and we'd change the bed together, reassuring him that sheets washed just fine. I'd always have him go to the bathroom just to be sure he didn't need to go more, and we also decided not to give him drinks before bedtime. Eventually he stopped, but it took some time.

I've heard the alarm for the bed works pretty well. You may also want to check with your pediatrician for other helpful ideas as it isn't uncommon for night time bed wetting to take time to grow out of. Just keep loving him as you are doing. 

Wools

[pessim-optimist]

It was a brave thing and a new thing for you Ziggiddy (where new=scary)  

My thinking has been all self protective and paranoid. Suspicious. I cannot stop the negative self talk cannot stop from believing all the old voices  - you're not important you don't matter you're a burden no one wants you why don't you just go away?

I can't figure out what I did or didn't do to make things this way? I can't figure out what to do to stop them beinf this way. I can balrely just toerate going through it.

You did not make things this way... .Your repetitive childhood experiences and your parents' messages made things this way. And I am sorry that you felt unimportant and a burden and unwanted... . 

Now, you are important and you matter and you are a blessing to people around you - and to your kids - you are their whole life!

It will take some time to replace the negative messages with positive ones, and that's ok.

I was so mad. She KNEW she wasn't supposed to come so bent the rules by coming nearby. I was also mad at HIM for not sayoing no to her and leaving her at home. So I get trumped again. I a still upset about that part.

I see how that would be triggering, and how it would push your buttons. On the other hand, you did not want her present so you could talk freely, and you achieved that - a small victory, no? Take a deep breath, it's over now... .

To my shock he completely agreed with me. He said it was unnecessary and too much. he even apologised.

That sounds awesome. He cannot fix what happened, but he is not trying to justify himself; an honest apology is priceless.

We spent several hours going over a lo-ot of things the most important of which were the ^ above and why he never once ever came to visit me once I left the city. Why he never called or wrote. Why he had zero interest in my kids. He said "It simply never occurred to him."

THAT is what's breaking me in two now.

It simply never occurred to him.

I don't even know what that means.

I don't know your situation well enough - Is it possible that he knew that they weren't good parents to you and that he thought that maybe you weren't interested in him contacting you? That he may have felt rejected w/out ever asking if that was the case? (just speculating)

At least he knows now that you wanted to be contacted, and it might help in your future r/s... .

[Ziggiddy]

Thank you so much guys.

I admit I spilled a tear or two reading your replies.

It never ceases to amaze me how high the quality of personality is here.

Harri

Okay, so let's try something different.  Rather than trying to stop the negative talk and shut it down, write it out, here or in private, makes no difference.  Just let it out until the tears are falling and you can write no more.  Then, go back and write a reply to Little Zig (and it is probably her running those old scripts that helped her survive back then) and tell her exactly what you would tell your own daughter or anyone here.  I am going to get even more bossy and tell you that you did nothing to cause them to behave this way and there is nothing you could have done to stop them.  You were at their whim and their mercy and they were horribly wrong in the way they treated you and talked to you.  You did not deserve that.  You are wonderful and precious and a treasure and they, because of their flaws and their deficits, missed out on experiencing and loving *you*.  They are at fault Zig.  Take the words you have shared with me and others here and apply them to *you* my friend.  You are worthy and deserving of every bit of love and compassion that you are able to share so well here.

Ok welling up again.

How wonderful to feel valuable and not like a liability. I can't thank you enough for this 

And the idea of not trying to stop theself talk ... .hmmm. that makes sense, is obvious and it is likely contributing to my tension that I am fighting it.

I need to listen to it instead of panicking because of it. Good pickup, H.

Woolspinner

She likes to sit and listens well and doesn't mind being quiet, especially when someone else is hurting.

It still amazes me how very little I think people would think I would be worth listening to. You confound this again and again, Wools. Thank you. 

Pessopt

I don't know your situation well enough - Is it possible that he knew that they weren't good parents to you and that he thought that maybe you weren't interested in him contacting you? That he may have felt rejected w/out ever asking if that was the case? (just speculating)

At least he knows now that you wanted to be contacted, and it might help in your future r/s... .

I think the reason I got so derailed was him not bothering to follow up.

I am quite used to my mother's apologies or promises being genuinely sincere in the moment and then vapourising like dew in the sun but I really thought this might be different, you know?

The fact that he openly came out with acknowledgement and wanted, off his own bat to make some amends really meant something to me. Then no follow up and I thought "here we go - I am back to not existing."

Ah  I see the headache was from that. Not existing. He checks the weather every day. Minimum maximum dewpoint humidity etc etc. i got to thinking how he knows more about the weather than me.

Turkish you really surprised me with the idea of rubbing your sons face in his sheets. Were you really considering that?

Me I think I would have stopped wetting the bed had I not been so scared of punishment for wetting the bed. It's like an unconscious try at being young and dependent. Well i think it was, for me at least.

Plus I simply couldn't control my bladder. I think love would have been a better cure. Plus instead of my parents telling me to not drink before going to bed instead of recommending milk/cocoa/warm water as a means of getting to sleep.

I like Wools point about learning about dreams. That still affects me now. Plus some people just got better control than others.

My D8 sometimes still wets. I never ever draw attention to it or act annoyed. We change the bed together, I put a nylon blanket down under the mattress and tell her she's still learning and we're all a learner at something. Her embarrassment at it has faded and last time it happened she got up and changed the bed herself, put the bedclothing in the washing machine and I praised her for fixing everything up.

It's such a shameful embarrassing thing.

i never used to wet at sleepovers though.

[Turkish]

No, Zig, I would never do that. It was just a thought due to my sick sense of humor which I like to think I keep off the boards. He awoke in the am. Went potty, before the pee monitor went off. I was proud of him. He crawled into bed with me and I cuddled him. D2 had already come in earlier.  Was squeezed by two kids so around 5 am, I went and slept in their room alone. Either they love me a lot, or they are power tripping by taking over my room. Or both.