Getting past your FOO

[Trog]

Hey All

Ive had a productive day today in terms of sifting thru more em elements of my FOO. Recently my parents came to visit, i hadn't seen my mother for 6 months and they came to stay for 5 days.

Quick back history: my mother had always praises me for being mature and she felt like I was the adult and she was the child. My role was that of fixer and peace keeper - the rows always went the same way (between my parents) and of course, during their visit they couldn't help but act out.

My mother flew off the handle once again when her opinion was challenged, threatened to catch a flight home and flounced off to the bedroom, my father tried to placate her but in the end got peed off himself and then went into his own tizzy threatening to go home himself.

This left me feeling like a 12 year old again, we are just about to go out for the day and I know if I don't solve this and console both these idiots they will ruin the whole day. My first thought actually, as my boundaries are now mega high was to chuck both of them out of my house and tell them to grow the eff up. I was quiet for a while it eventually tookupmy role as peacekeeper and solved the problem and they eventually made up. I resent having to parent my parents. This was my life every month for 18 years. They really annoy me being unable to keep any kind of decorum in my house. I don't get why 'parents' are ok to just set such a bad example and expect their kids to be ok. I know they are doing the best they can but I think it's super lazy, if I can try and improve myself why can't they?

Anyway, thinking about this today led me to understand just how much my FOO, believing I can't do stuff/ being timid etc hold me back. Their pathologies are woven thru and I need to be the one to break this for the sake of my kids. Today I took the step of booking myself on a yacht sailing course, something i always wanted to do but guess thought 'that's not me' because of FOO issues (my exBPD also forbade me to take up sailing - yes you read that right, forbade). Im tired of them defining my future.

So the point im trying to make is, really look at your FOO, the BPd relationship happened because of FOO, the pain you feel now is because of ideas and obligations you have due to FOO. I feel cracking this pathology could truly be the key to realising my full potential in love/work and all.

Good luck all

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Trog,

That really sucks that you had to play the role of the parent and were put into a position of having to choose between playing peacemaker vs having a wrecked time.  I can completely relate to feeling frustrated and stressed for the roles dynamics that seem to play out in autopilot when with the FOO. 

Unfortunately, or rather fortunately?... .I have had to cut off my FOO completely because I was completely done with playing into the roles they assigned me and they can just not see me as anything but playing a weak and useless role.  (That way they can be grandiose in comparison and always better than me... .how absurd for grown adults to have needed to feel better than a child!)

I like your post because this is where my thoughts have been as well.  I have been wandering my mind thinking of my FOO, r/s dynamics, and how the dynamics relate to the mild uNPD/BPDexbf r/s.

I made a post yesterday about a challenging conversation at work, where I was trying to solve a problem, but the person was derailing it... .I'll cut/paste it here:

If I try to recall my internal dialogue about the situation it would go something like this:

She really wants a solution.

I really want to have the answer to help solve this problem.  It will benefit us both.

Let's do this!

Work with me here lady.

She is struggling to listen/focus.  I will repeat it so she can hear it.  She is still struggling to focus.  I will modify my language, break it down, simplify my language.  I can see she mistakes my questions for attacks, I know she likely has a difficult history... .based on previous conversations with her, and this is the source of her behavior.  I do not need to be offended or take it personal.  Maybe if I can soothe her and prove to her that I am on her side, she can listen and we can get back on track?

This is where I think I need to make some cognitive shift!  I need to not take responsibility to soothe, I do not need to be on anyone's side.  I need to put a boundary here! 

So how do I get aware and change this in the heat of the moment?

Also, I think this is why I end up "attracting" disordered persons.  I think the average person would have been confused at her JADEing vs empathizing. I think the average person would have thought to themself, "she is a difficult person and confusing me, let me limit these interactions."

I think the fact that I am numb to her JADEing, meaning I do not take it personally is the reason I ended up with a r/s with a N/BPDexbf.  My self, instead of being confused like the avg non coD and turned off by his internal struggle, I related to it and felt obligation to provide empathy where he likely had little.

So that was so helpful to get out of my head... .I feel like I have a bit more clarity... .a small piece in focus... ."

Idk if that piece makes sense taken out of the thread, hopefully... .

I have been thinking of my patterns

My internal dialogue

Trying to deconstruct what is happening so maybe I can pinpoint it... .and shift it in the moment

I know in my FOO I was told I was helpless/useless.

I know that created a strong desire in me to prove my worth, to over help.

Also, because of their abuse... .I easily can empathize with behaviors that others would not tolerate, would be confused by, or irritated by. 

This is a gift to me in many situations.  I can manage difficult people better than others as I am not as easily irritated by them.  The trouble with this is that I am neurologically wired that some types of behaviors I am numb to, unaffected by, I remember a moment in couples therapy when my ex had a full rage, flipped out, stood up ranting.  The MC soothed him and talked him down.  The look on the MC face looked like panic.  He was calm, controlled, but I could see panic he was also hiding.  However, when the MC turned to look at me, his face changed to shock.  He was in shock at how unmoved I was by ExBF burst.  He began to question what I was thinking and processing as he was amazed and had not seen someone so calmly sit through such a storm he had just witnessed.  I just plainly explained that I understood exBF was not really angry about the issue... .it was more an issue of narcissistic injury and he just needed to make his point and distract the situation and I knew it would return when his show was done.  Well... .so I realize that there were many rages in FOO... .most don't scare me... .they are my "normal," that needs some more thought on my part.

That was a really long reply... .yikes!

I do want to ask one thing though... .

After you reluctantly took on the care taking role with your parents... .  How much did you let them know how you really felt about the situation?

[Trog]

Hey

How much did I let them know it annoyed me? Not at all. That would have caused my mother to cry and my father would be annoyed I'd upset my mother!

I don't think things will ever change with them. I know why my mum acts this way, she is very miserable with my father and has always been, she has guilt over staying with him despite many infidelities and physical abuses from him. She's sick with herself for her inactivity around this yet she doesn't leave. Reminds me of someone else I know  

I also try to soothe colleagues but have spotted this and tried harder to stand back and not get emotionally involved. Sometimes the CEO of our company can shout or say hurtful things to some of the women at meetings and it burns me, the over empathy has nearly brought me to tears in their behalf! That's how bad it gets. Other people seem to be able to handle other people's anger. However, shying a way from anger as a character trait again makes us a perfect pliable partner for a BPD as we will always back down in the face of emotional blackmail and anger.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey

How much did I let them know it annoyed me? Not at all. That would have caused my mother to cry and my father would be annoyed I'd upset my mother!

I don't think things will ever change with them. I know why my mum acts this way, she is very miserable with my father and has always been, she has guilt over staying with him despite many infidelities and physical abuses from him. She's sick with herself for her inactivity around this yet she doesn't leave. Reminds me of someone else I know  

I also try to soothe colleagues but have spotted this and tried harder to stand back and not get emotionally involved. Sometimes the CEO of our company can shout or say hurtful things to some of the women at meetings and it burns me, the over empathy has nearly brought me to tears in their behalf! That's how bad it gets. Other people seem to be able to handle other people's anger. However, shying a way from anger as a character trait again makes us a perfect pliable partner for a BPD as we will always back down in the face of emotional blackmail and anger.

I wasn't implying that you should try to change them, I don't believe that is your job either.  What I am currently trying to do is be aware of when I am participating in an unhealthy dynamic.  Then seeing if I can find the place where I can shift my thinking... .then shift my behavior and dynamic.  I'm practicing in the context of everyday type interactions.  My hope is that my next r/s, I can undo my coD tendencies and have a better r/s. 

When I asked my T this week about help getting to a point to feel confident that I could enter a r/s with a healthy non coD dynamic, he replied that it was important and more meaningful to focus on less personal r/s.

So now that you have recognized these tendencies... .to soothe, or shy away... .  What do you think is a helpful next step?

I'm not asking a question here that I have an answer for and just trying to make you come to it.  I am literally making up how to help myself on the fly here and wondering if you have any ideas or helpful thoughts on how to go from awareness --> fixing it.  I'm seeking other angles and options that I may think can help me too.

[Trog]

Hey

How much did I let them know it annoyed me? Not at all. That would have caused my mother to cry and my father would be annoyed I'd upset my mother!

I don't think things will ever change with them. I know why my mum acts this way, she is very miserable with my father and has always been, she has guilt over staying with him despite many infidelities and physical abuses from him. She's sick with herself for her inactivity around this yet she doesn't leave. Reminds me of someone else I know  

I also try to soothe colleagues but have spotted this and tried harder to stand back and not get emotionally involved. Sometimes the CEO of our company can shout or say hurtful things to some of the women at meetings and it burns me, the over empathy has nearly brought me to tears in their behalf! That's how bad it gets. Other people seem to be able to handle other people's anger. However, shying a way from anger as a character trait again makes us a perfect pliable partner for a BPD as we will always back down in the face of emotional blackmail and anger.

I wasn't implying that you should try to change them, I don't believe that is your job either.  What I am currently trying to do is be aware of when I am participating in an unhealthy dynamic.  Then seeing if I can find the place where I can shift my thinking... .then shift my behavior and dynamic.  I'm practicing in the context of everyday type interactions.  My hope is that my next r/s, I can undo my coD tendencies and have a better r/s.  

When I asked my T this week about help getting to a point to feel confident that I could enter a r/s with a healthy non coD dynamic, he replied that it was important and more meaningful to focus on less personal r/s.

So now that you have recognized these tendencies... .to soothe, or shy away... . What do you think is a helpful next step?

I'm not asking a question here that I have an answer for and just trying to make you come to it.  I am literally making up how to help myself on the fly here and wondering if you have any ideas or helpful thoughts on how to go from awareness --> fixing it.  I'm seeking other angles and options that I may think can help me too.

Hey sunflower

I know you were not suggesting anything no problem.

My next step is to mention this to my therapist. My thought is that I can acknowledge this behaviour (both theirs and my triggered 12 year old feelings) for myself, understand it and find methods to live within it without rescuing.

I know I can't change them and I know they won't change so the only thing left to do is be able to handle this when it happens without my being transferred to a scared child. There is no danger anymore of physical violence, the worst that could happen was that we would have wasted a lovely sunny day. But I would have really resented that. I would not feel like I could just have gone out and left them fighting. I would be worried (caretaker) that my mother would have felt abandoned by me. So the only option was fix it and try to enjoy the day.

It's very clear to me how triggered I am by anger.

Doing what I need to do to placate and smooth over was the same for exBPD, I went places I didn't want, joined political parties, changed my eating habits, basically did anything to avoid confrontation with her. What happened is this eroded my entire sense of self, I took on (on the face of it, behind her back I was resisting) all her desires for a mate. She told me once if I ate meat she would divorce me, this undercurrent of, if you're not doing what I want - what's against my principles, I'll take love away.

My mother could be cold with me when my father was cruel to her, so she also, even just for a short time, took love away if things were strained in the family. She was always talking about leaving and I was scared one day I'd arrive home and she'd be gone and I'd be left with my father who was a very poor parent. This is where I learnt that at all costs it was my role to keep the peace, make sure everyone was happy. The scraps of love and attention I got from my wife when I was 'behaving' was a reinactment.

That is something that could cause BPD. This is why many times I've worried that I have BPD. However I believe I took the line toward caretaker but I've done things that would not be out of place as a characteristic of BPD but I'm pretty sure I'm caretaker.

Wow, ive just figured that out now. Jeeeeeesus!

I've been alone for a year now. I am lonely, but I am not serious about finding a new partner, I hope it won't take too long to get thru this! I want kids! Guess it takes what it takes!

[Sunfl0wer]

"understand it and find methods to live within it without rescuing."  "So the only option was fix it and try to enjoy the day."

These statements seem in conflict to me.  Does it seem that way to you?

"It's very clear to me how triggered I am by anger."

I think I just realized something.  The way you mention your ex and the extent you would go to avoid conflict + trigger... .  Makes me think: Fight, flight, freeze.  You avoid=form of flight.  When I hear a rage, I'm numb=form of freeze.  It kind of applies?  (That freeze concept is a new one for me... .so that's why I'm playing with it)

":)oing what I need to do to placate and smooth over was the same for exBPD, I went places I didn't want, joined political parties, changed my eating habits, basically did anything to avoid confrontation with her. What happened is this eroded my entire sense of self, I took on (on the face of it, behind her back I was resisting) all her desires for a mate. She told me once if I ate meat she would divorce me, this undercurrent of, if you're not doing what I want - what's against my principles, I'll take love away.

My mother could be cold with me when my father was cruel to her, so she also, even just for a short time, took love away if things were strained in the family. She was always talking about leaving and I was scared one day I'd arrive home and she'd be gone and I'd be left with my father who was a very poor parent. This is where I learnt that at all costs it was my role to keep the peace, make sure everyone was happy. The scraps of love and attention I got from my wife when I was 'behaving' was a reinactment.

That is something that could cause BPD. This is why many times I've worried that I have BPD. However I believe I took the line toward caretaker but I've done things that would not be out of place as a characteristic of BPD but I'm pretty sure I'm caretaker.

Wow, ive just figured that out now. Jeeeeeesus!

I've been alone for a year now. I am lonely, but I am not serious about finding a new partner, I hope it won't take too long to get thru this! I want kids! Guess it takes what it takes!"

When you describe your ex, it reminds me of mine... .  ST, withholding affection, shunning, acting, his love was always dangled or withheld.  Thinking of it now makes me feel like some sort of pet.  He often communicated that he was one foot in and one out... .to keep himself feeling dominant... .and me controlled and grateful for when he did show up and act like a partner.  Being with a partner who is controlling, not valuing or appreciating you feels awful!

Sounds like you grew up in fear, feeling constantly insecure about your situation, and responsible for it.  That sucks!  I can see why you would consider BPD.  I know I have similar traits to BPD... .but I think if we are honest with ourselves... .we are all on a spectrum of any of the different clusters, some more than others.  Having PTSD, there are many BPD similarities vs say HPD similarities. I have often had to revisit and compare the differences to reassure myself.  However, I think we both have shown good insight and ability to have an internal locus of control and to consider others perspectives more so than a person with BPD.

Hang in there!  You are doing hard work!  You got this!

[Trog]

They are in conflict. What I need to do is recognise it and not rescue but what I did do, even last week, was fix it.

I've only realised these behaviours today, so I have not yet had the chance to change the behaviour. So I will bring this up with the therapist and try to understand good ways to go approach this.

Fight flight freeze. Well, I'd do all I could to avoid these happenings. And sometimes in the midst of physical fights I was frozen for a few seconds, but then I'd go into fight, not close down. I would push my father off my mother or protect her in any way I could sometimes getting hit myself this way. With the BPD ex, I would manage and manage and manage, but flight, never. I can't control the situ if I fly, I kicked her out many times, if she attacked me I'd try to hold stop her. So, I have freeze (or avoid) firstly and then straight to fight!

I feel massive relief to work on myself, it is far far less painful than being around crazy people whose behaviour is very hurtful. I'm no longer too sad about my marriage ending, it never stood a chance, because of her and because of me. Solving this stuff seems incredibly hopeful and gives me a chance to come out of the shell and flourish (ALa sailing lessons). It's my time and there's no one to manage, sometimes that feels scary and alone, but i want a mutual relationship.

How are you feeling with all your insights?