need a strategy (update)

[momtara]

Quick version: My ex has harassed me and scared me on and off this summer, and yelled at the kids on phone calls. Most recently made a comment about not bringing the kids back. He brought them back just fine though, and this last pickup went without incident. But we need a new parent coordinator (the peace will not be kept for long) and I want a few other things. He will fight having to pay for a PC, etc. My lawyer called his lawyer on Mon and said it's ridiculous that he fired two PC's and he's reduced his therapy and we're going into court on Friday (the day they do emergency motions) unless he agrees to a consent order for a new pc we pick. So that's our strategy.

UPDATE: ... .But we have not heard back from them. Friday is getting closer. My L says they usually don't grant emergency motions unless there's impending harm. We can certainly ask for a psych eval and stuff, and she is calling the last PC to see what she'll say, but so I need to figure out what to do if my ex does not respond - either actually go on Friday and tell it all to the judge but not be able to say there's an emergency, or just submit a regular motion.

I'm leaning toward going. It's expensive, my L says it will just 'empower' my ex if we lose. That said, I feel like the worst that happens is I *do* lose and then we submit a regular motion.

Thing that scares me is, regular motions take 28 days to be heard and they will postpone and ask for their own stuff (my ex wants dinners with the kids etc) so it could take months, and he gets SO triggered by seeing a PC in general that it scares me to have it all go on that long.

Wondering if there's any strategy me and my L might be missing. I'm taking a risk going to court instead of doing what some have said, just setting boundaries. But ex is ill and I do want some basic help until the kids are a little older. I talked to a PC who sounded GREAT and I'd really like to use her. If we can't get the court to grant this in a hurry (which they may not until ex can have time to have his say) I am left tiptoeing to try to get him to agree to stuff.

[livednlearned]

My experience in court is that if you ask for something out of reach, be sure to have something reasonable lined up to ask for, otherwise you waste your money. It sounds like you are doing that. You're going in knowing you will lose, and using that opportunity to say that something has to budge -- this guy is difficult, he keeps firing the PCs, he is not in therapy, etc.

If he dysregulates and you become worried, you can always do another emergency hearing. Although that gets expensive.

My ex wrote very bizarre and cryptic text messages to me and S14 about my SO being a pedophile, claiming too that N/BPDx and my former step-son would come down and beat the living crap out of anyone messing with S14. These were the things I had tacked onto the emergency motion -- they were reasonable under the circumstance, especially because we were becoming familiar faces in the judge's court   

Judge did not suspend visitation. However, he did create some stiff conditions for N/BPDx -- he had to get anger management, substance abuse counseling, a psych exam, and had to stop any and all inappropriate messages to S14.

N/BPDx did none of those things.

It's like chess. You have to think multiple moves ahead.

Make sure you have tight conditions on anything you ask for -- ex has to provide xyz documentation about his medical treatment by 5pm on the last Friday of every month. Failure to do so will result in abc. If this matter has to come before the court, ex must pay legal sanctions to cover court costs.

Or whatever makes sense. Just make sure you close the loopholes.

With court, you have to expect to lose, and have something in between to offer the judge so you don't come out with nothing. And then think carefully about how come out ahead so that your ex's non-compliance (all but guaranteed) does not jack up your anxiety and keep you on this hamster wheel. That means having a condition for every act of non-compliance you can think of.

[momtara]

Brilliant. Thank you. You have definitely assessed the situation correctly. My L seems to think if we lose, we get nothing, but your past posts have sort of given me a bit of ammo, at least in my mind - even if we lose, there is indeed a pattern shown here. But all we may get out of it is just submitting the things we want as a regular motion, and that gives him 28 days to come up with nonsense. I'm going to do my best.

I feel like trying to negotiate with him for the PC I want and anything else will go nowhere, as if I really want something, he automatically will fight it. I have two PC's who would be ok but one who I talked to who was kinda spot on and I think she would help us a lot. Part of me wants to tell this to my ex, but I'll just end up tiptoeing too much on other stuff, hoping he'll sign the agreement, hoping he won't fail to show up for appointments - it's too much stress and manipulation.

My L got back to me this morning and said she's willing to go in there Fri, but I shouldn't assume we'll win, and her argument will be brief and to the point. I think the argument will be: He was on supervised visitation last year, got off by signing consent agreement saying we'd see a pc and he'd give notifications, he hasn't done that, he's harassing, let's put him on supervised until we can start working with someone new who he pays for. Ex can come up with any number of arguments why it isn't fair to agree to all this in a hurry, and this will all piss him off. Plus his lawyer is out of town. But maybe it will start him negotiating to avoid us asking for more in court at a later time. Also, we gave them chances all week to negotiate with us.

[ForeverDad]

Is this an all-or-nothing motion?  Or can the judge take the motion, deny some of it and order the rest?  For example, might he deny the supervised portion but order the PC sections?  Or continue until ex's lawyer has returned?

I agree with the point LnL made, try to get a decision with requirements that also include the consequences of failure to comply.  The problem with many orders is that actions are ordered but no specific consequences are included.  Then when it eventually gets back into court so much time has passed that the court is more willing to lecture (if that much) and give one more chance (again) rather than give consequences.

[momtara]

Yes! Good point! I want consequences in there, especially if my ex decides not to show up to see the PC.

Maybe the consequence is he goes back on supervised.

All-or-nothing; I guess my L seemed to think it works that way. I wonder if it's different in different states. She didn't seem to think we could ask for a bunch of stuff and get some of it. But sometimes I give her an idea and she says "Oh, yeah, we can do that." She's a good lawyer and still really some of the stuff has to come from me. I guess that's always how it is. So I dunno. I'm going to nose around the internet to see if there are differences in motions and if ex parte ones in my state (Order to Show Cause) are all or nothing. I can't see why she can't talk to the judge if she's in there, right?

[livednlearned]

ned?

I agree with the point LnL made, try to get a decision with requirements that also include the consequences of failure to comply.  The problem with many orders is that actions are ordered but no specific consequences are included.  Then when it eventually gets back into court so much time has passed that the court is more willing to lecture (if that much) and give one more chance (again) rather than give consequences.

I think the reason it's like this (ie. lawyer's don't include the level of detail and contingencies we need) is because a) they expect the other party to be reasonable and follow the order, and b) there is no motivation for them to think ahead.

Also, keep in mind that you can really button things up in the written order. That means you go to the hearing and the judge says "do this and that." Then, have your lawyer be the one who drafts the written order. Then, you all have to appear in court again to have the order entered. This would be your ex's chance to disagree with any conditions. My ex is a lawyer and never focused on the details -- it's unlikely that your ex would be able to tell the difference between reasonable language and conditions (it all sounds like typical legal stuff) and something that momtara is up to.

He is more likely to focus on whether he has "won" or lost based on what the judge says. In some ways, if he feels that he won, he will be less likely to mess with you via the kids.

You just have to tolerate whatever it is he says. 

I can't tell you how often things went this way for me in court. N/BPDx was very narcissistic, though, so his behavior might be different than your ex.

[ForeverDad]

The reason I asked whether the judge, if procedures allow, would be inclined to grant part of your motion was so that you give the judge (1) your optimal solution and (2) a lesser solution but one you can live with.  As our member David often says, after a rough start in his early years at court, since then he often succeeds when he presents the judge not just with the problem but also his solutions.

As an example, sometimes newer members here say "I need full custody" and the reverse "I could never get full custody".  Well, the fact is court seldom wants to award full custody to either parent, apparently they don't want the parents to feel, gloating winners or locked out losers.  Well, I suggest to them we can still ask for full custody based on incidents, documentation, etc, but then "hedge our bets" by mentioning a second best option, seeking at least Decision-Making or Tie-Breaker in joint custody.  That is virtually the same as full custody but saves face for the problem parent.  Court would likely prefer that outcome and so you may get "Option #2 is ordered" rather than a blanket ":)enied."

With court being an adversarial forum, prone to Ordered or Denied outcomes, it may work to try to get at least some improvement.  It took me about 8 years to go from alternate weekends to Legal Guardian with majority time during the school year.  To live it felt like baby step improvements, but court evidently preferred gradual minimal fixes, figuring that when they got it right then we'd stop returning to court.  It took a long time but it looks like we finally have an adequate order.

[momtara]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Very good!

I will suggest to lawyer.

I'll update when available!

[david]

A big part of the reason I started getting success in court was because I had answers to problems. I knew what I wanted and why. It always focused on the best interest of the boys and never what I thought was " how my ex should act/behave/etc". My ex would still make comments in court about me being unfit /abusive but she never provided evidence to support her claims. My atty usually let these things go and I questioned that. He simply pointed out that ex didn't provide evidence and was bolstering my case. The judge did not challenge ex about her allegations either but I do believe they got it.

In the beginning I wanted to show I was telling the truth and ex was lying. That did not work. I came to realize that the court does not want to appear biased and if someone is saying crazy things then they let them talk for a while. Basically my ex was digging her own grave.

My ex ran away in 2007. Since around 2011 things have pretty much gone in my favor in court. Ex is still bringing things up from 2007. I am focused on the today and our kids.

You have an ongoing concern that has not been addressed adequately in court. Ex is basically in contempt of court for not following the order. Therefore, the court needs to place consequences for non compliance of a court order. That is the issue you need the court to address. Have your ideas written down and talk to your atty about what can be done. I have found that figuring out what is acceptable in your jurisdiction and what the courts "normally" do is a big asset. If there is nothing "normal" in you area than you need to find the new "normal".  It has to be simple and direct.

[david]

Having a list of non compliance examples and having ex on the stand explaining why may be a very good start. That would put your solutions on the table for the judge to understand the why.

[momtara]

Thanks. It is always a good reminder to a) focus on how things affect the child and b) offer reasonable remedies that will help the situation.

And yes, he's not complying and that should be the key.

My lawyer sent me the proposed consent order and certification. She left out some important things I wanted so I sent back proposed changes. It basically said she wanted proof he's still in therapy or he should be under supervised visitation (that's vague though) and we want a new PC that he pays half for. I had to make it more specific that he's in regular therapy every other week like before, and that's what the notifications have to say too. (His shrinks will lie for him). I feel like I have to tell my lawyer the same thing over and over, but if she gets what I want in the end, it's worth it. I already feel better that we're ready to go.

I also asked my L if this motion is all or nothing, or if maybe we can ask the judge to grant part if he won't grant all. She did put in there that she would like to convert it to a regular motion if it fails. Thanks.

[momtara]

Hmmm. My lawyer finally filed the paperwork for an order to show cause, but says she isn't going to go; they will decide based on the paperwork. I said, what if my ex shows up? He's so manipulative, he can convince them it's all lies. She said if ex shows up they will let her know and she will go. He showed up last time and they worked something out ahead of time - he was on supervised until he could get some documentation. I feel like I should go in case he shows up. I'm nervous about it but I have to be strong. I will talk to my L and see what she thinks. I mean, if they just convert it to a regular order, so be it, but I don't want to say I didn't do my best after even bothering with this. My L may end up going anyway. Grrr, so nervewracking. She is very good in court but sometimes she is too busy to really do everything.

[GaGrl]

She's your lawyer. Tell her you want her to appear.

Also, isn't your ex seeing both a therapist and a psychiatrist? Don't you want both mentioned so he medication is monitored?

[momtara]

Yes, we did mention both doctors.

I don't think I can get her to go if things stay as is, but she did say that the court will call her if the other side shows up and then she would go. Hmmm. I am going to ask her about this. I don't see why my ex would fail to show up. He has ignored our attempts to negotiate, but that doesn't mean anything.

[momtara]

They couldn't hear it today and now my L is away next week and ex's L is back from vacation. It's kind of a recipe for disaster. My L thinks they may just look at the paperwork and decide, but I don't know. I'll just have to be strong and go in there and tell the truth - no, my ex hasn't 'done anything' lately, he's menacing and harassing and we need someone to help us out when these unstable periods crop up. I'm not a psychologist or social worker like our last two parenting coordinators.

[GaGrl]

You sound as if you are minimizing some of your concerns about your ex's behavior. How concrete can you be about the behaviors so you can provide examples for the hearing?

-- has, on X occasions on Y dates, cancelled or rescheduled medical appointments for the children

-- has, on X occasions on Y dates, displayed anger and verbally harassed Momtara in front of children during pickups; children were visibly frightened

-- on Y date, threatened not to return children from visitation

-- has, on X occasions on Y dates, telephoned children for scheduled call only to remain silent for duration of the call; children were confused and became anxious

Am I on target here?

[momtara]

Gosh, you put it into a list so much better than my lawyer did. Thank you. Yes, those are all true things that happened, and rough things. The court may not think any of that warrants immediate action, especially compared to some of what they see, but all those things happened.

My L put those things in my certification but in kind of a more wordy way. I just feel like there's too much in there that my ex can pick apart.

Thank you for reminding me not to minimize my concerns. He has gotten back into a 'nice' period and then I start forgetting how scary it is when he shows up angry and I can't say anything because I don't want him to be angry taking the kids.

I feel a little better because a few hours ago, I printed out all the emails, texts, and things that prove a lot of what has happened. I also have a very long timeline I sent my lawyer. I still don't know that a court will understand in a few minutes what has happened, as my ex can easily shoot down some things ("I never said that," bla bla bla, and it's not a whole trial.) I kind of have to stick to a few main points.

My L did not put in there about him changing all the appointments or yelling at pickups. She put in the threatening not to return the kids, fighting with my toddler on the phone, and calling me 53 times in an hour and a half. The last one is the only one I have physical proof of (phone log). Somehow none of that sounds like he's going to do physical harm. I'm not minimizing, but I know that court wants to see more. That said, clearly we at least need a parenting coordinator, if not the supervised visitation til we get one. My lawyer didn't put in some things in the order (like consequences of not following it) that I kept pressing her on, because she was so busy. She was so busy that she only responded half the time. The language in this motion was so complex, I don't know how an average person is expected to figure out the legal system.

In any case, I feel better and stronger now than this morning, and ready to plead my case on Monday if need be.

[david]

My atty's petitions are short and to the point. He lists some of the main reasons but leaves some of the "big guns" out of the petition but has all the evidence and is ready to present it when in court. His petition is written in such a way that the "big guns" are not specifically mentioned but are included in the petition. He doesn't put everything in his petitions so the opposing counsel can't be as well prepared.

When we went to equitable distribution I had given him about 30 pictures of items ex claimed I stole but the pictures revealed they were in her apartment. He didn't put any of them or specifically mention them in his responses ,etc. When were were sitting in the conference room and ex had already raged against me several times, including that I stole several items,  my atty showed her atty two of the pictures. He explained that the pile of pictures was just more of the same. Her atty took ex out of the conference room and we settled about 20 minutes later.

My atty explained what his plan was before that day so I knew what to expect. He doesn't tell me everything because he said if I am on the stand he doesn't want it to look like we prepared everything ahead of time. Those are all things we discussed before.

[momtara]

Thanks. Sometimes there is a method to the legal madness. That's good insight.

I'm already anticipating things ex will poke holes in. He is so good at alternative explanations for things. He'll say he called me so many times because I kept hanging up when he called to talk to the kids. I have years of logs of how much he talked to them, just in case, but that's a lot to present. I have no idea what he'll do in response. He's being all nice this week. But that doesn't mean anything. Hmmm. Guess I should find out tomorrow.

[david]

My first atty would not tell me what was going on or what to expect. I was told by several people she was really good. After a while I got the impression that she was winging it and really wasn't as prepared as I thought. A big reason for that was she never explained things ahead of time or what to expect. She never gave me a game plan either. I finally interviewed a bunch of other atty's and found one that appeared to me to be listening and answering my questions. I didn't understand how the law worked and he would take the time to explain things so I got the idea of how it worked. He told me about different judges in the county and what he thought of them. I had been in front of quite a few by then and he pretty much said what I had been thinking about some of them already.

The first meeting with him was no charge and it lasted a little over two hours. The most any other atty gave me was about an hour. They all seemed very busy. I hired him to represent me and haven't regretted the decision. It's been several years now and I have learned that he is extremely busy all the time. He spells out all the options and lets me decide which direction to go. I am pretty good at the game now so those conversations are much briefer than in the past. I send him emails occasionally letting him know things that I believe are relevant to this ongoing saga. I haven't been charged for any of them and he does reply.

When we went to court the first time he had a cart with wheels on it. He had every single piece of information I had given him and it was all in an order that he had made. If stacked on a table it measured at least 18 inches tall. That was every email, etc. that I gave him. He said his plan wasn't to necessarily use all of it but he wanted it just in case ex brought something up that he needed to refute. I was impressed especially since I am not that organized myself.

I told him what I thought ex would say and do and, for the most part, I am spot on. He has contacted me at times to ask me what I thought ex would say about something. Once court started going in my favor things became easier. The last few times we were supposed to have a hearing ex agreed to settle without going in front of a judge. It didn't matter whether I initiated the petition or she did.

The only thing my ex has really had a problem with is the fact that I have a video and an audio recorder. She has brought it up many times starting in 2010 when I purchased them. My atty at first explained I wasn't allowed in my state to do that but when I explained it was the only way to protect myself from false allegations. I further explained that I was simply recording myself and that the judge  should be able to just listen to the recording of me and disregard what ex is saying. This would be solid proof that my testimony was accurate. He liked that idea and said to continue doing what I am doing. I haven't had an allegation since that time. All our communication is through email so there is no disputing what either of us said. That boundary is a great help for me and I fell safer because of it. My audio recorder has eyefi which sends all my recordings to the internet so whatever happens to the recorder is not important. I haven't used eyefi in a while so it might not exist anymore.

[david]

If my ex said she called many times I would reply in an email all the times and dates without saying anything else. She used to say things like she called at such and such a time and I refused to let the boys talk to her. The few times they did not talk to her was because she didn't call at 7:30 pm like she claimed but instead at 11:30 pm when they were in bed already. I usually had them call the next day at a reasonable time. I would just state the time she called and the time they returned her call. No judge would think I was keeping her from talking to the boys. My reply would be "You called at 11:30 pm. The boys were in bed. I had the boys return your call the next day at 9 am." I sometimes had no idea whether they had actually talked to her or not but I made sure they called. I would not hang out in the room to make sure they talked to her since that was, in my opinion, private. I know that didn't work in her place since I often heard her chiming in their conversation with me. Eventually they went into another room or stepped outside to talk to me. I let them figure out how they wanted to handle that since they didn't ask me for advice.