Fresh Perspective Needed

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi -

Haven't been here for awhile.  Life got busy, though, and my "whatevers" got pushed to the back burner.  uBPDw and I have been calling weekly and texting daily over the past 16 months she has been living in another state - nothing good or amazing as we talked, just nuts-and-bolts.  She has been away from our home, and our children and I since July 20, 2014.  Left us emotionally 6 months before that.  She has moved to be nearer her family of origin 1500+ miles away.  My children have not spoken with their mother in over 8 months, apart from the occasional advice sought on how to remove stains, etc.  She has visited us here only briefly.  My daughters are against going to see her on her "turf" at all, and have elected to stay home for the summer, and for this Christmas.

I have been, up to now, on the "Staying" board but seem to have turned a corner, so to speak.  My Catholic faith requires me to stay in the relationship no matter what.  I was happy to do so, until this past weekend.  We talked for a hour about deep things, rather than the quick 15 minutes check in.  During this call, she cried some, I supported and used "SET" (yes I am co-dependent) but did not "poke the bear".

During all this time she has continually lamented the loss of relationship with daughters brought on by her sudden, unannounced departure in July of 2014.  I have not pointed out the obvious - that she left and the distance brought to the mother-daughter communication is a direct result.  I have consistently told uBPDw I advocate for her often w the girls by assuring them their mother loves them, but also that mom is ill and likely cannot engage in a loving relationship in the way they need her to.  The girls emotions, concerns and feelings are validated and supported.  I am assured of this by them and by T which we all see every other week.

In the past year uBPDw has said "I love you" to me rarely and "I miss you" never.

During the long talk mentioned above uBPDw and myself discussed the beneficial effects of counseling on my girls and I - indeed, we are enjoying a better relationship than we have EVER had (not hyperbole here).  uBPDw said that was great for daughters and I, but also she reminded me of how much she didn't like going to counseling and how this would not be an option, ever.

I have a good job here and a good pension upon which I will be eligible to draw in less than 2 years.  My uBPDw and I had agreed some time ago to stick out the required time, then retire together (we are part of the same pension and bennies plan).  Not sure why I shared this, but I guess I wanted to share the motivation for not joining her, apart from the fact she lied to us and abandoned us.

THE PLAN when uBPDw and I last spoke was for me to move to where she is and resume our relationship.  THE PROBLEM:  Our relationship as a married couple is in rough shape.  Prior to her leaving, she had shut me out emotionally and we have been living as roommates/brother and sister since 2012.  uBPDw said during blowouts we are business partners and we were in a holding pattern.  That she would have left me already if she weren't afraid of losing access to the girls.  I am in my 4th year of celibacy.  This is just illustrative.  I know I have had the power to leave up to this point.  Maybe I'm "illustrating" I am a dork? ;-)

At the end of the hour-long unusual call mentioned above and since then I have been mulling it over in my mind and heart.  I feel I see things in a new light and that I am silly for thinking this will ever work.  She has said by her own admission she will never attend counseling "except to help us fill out ''paperwork'!"  )her euphemism for dissolution papers.  She has, by her own admission, asked me for a divorce/dissolution 6 times in the past 30 years.

Considering what I know to be true with regard to her willingness to put forth real effort to save this relationship, I am beginning to question what the return-per-unit effort will be.  I am 48 years old.  I don't want to wake up at 58 years old and regret every ounce of effort put forth in a hopeless cause.

As a way of making clear what I mean (and highlighting my newfound awareness of co-dependency) I have often thought of getting matching t-shirts made for uBPDw and I.  One would say "Sisyphus" for me and the other would say "Rock" for her.

I don't know what I want from this post.  Sorry.  I will be sure to avail myself of the particular lessons intended for posters on this board.

[Dobzhansky]

Hi -

Haven't been here for awhile.  Life got busy, though, and my "whatevers" got pushed to the back burner.  uBPDw and I have been calling weekly and texting daily over the past 16 months she has been living in another state - nothing good or amazing as we talked, just nuts-and-bolts.  She has been away from our home, and our children and I since July 20, 2014.  Left us emotionally 6 months before that.  She has moved to be nearer her family of origin 1500+ miles away.  My children have not spoken with their mother in over 8 months, apart from the occasional advice sought on how to remove stains, etc.  She has visited us here only briefly.  My daughters are against going to see her on her "turf" at all, and have elected to stay home for the summer, and for this Christmas.

I have been, up to now, on the "Staying" board but seem to have turned a corner, so to speak.  My Catholic faith requires me to stay in the relationship no matter what.  I was happy to do so, until this past weekend.  We talked for a hour about deep things, rather than the quick 15 minutes check in.  During this call, she cried some, I supported and used "SET" (yes I am co-dependent) but did not "poke the bear".

During all this time she has continually lamented the loss of relationship with daughters brought on by her sudden, unannounced departure in July of 2014.  I have not pointed out the obvious - that she left and the distance brought to the mother-daughter communication is a direct result.  I have consistently told uBPDw I advocate for her often w the girls by assuring them their mother loves them, but also that mom is ill and likely cannot engage in a loving relationship in the way they need her to.  The girls emotions, concerns and feelings are validated and supported.  I am assured of this by them and by T which we all see every other week.

In the past year uBPDw has said "I love you" to me rarely and "I miss you" never.

During the long talk mentioned above uBPDw and myself discussed the beneficial effects of counseling on my girls and I - indeed, we are enjoying a better relationship than we have EVER had (not hyperbole here).  uBPDw said that was great for daughters and I, but also she reminded me of how much she didn't like going to counseling and how this would not be an option, ever.

I have a good job here and a good pension upon which I will be eligible to draw in less than 2 years.  My uBPDw and I had agreed some time ago to stick out the required time, then retire together (we are part of the same pension and bennies plan).  Not sure why I shared this, but I guess I wanted to share the motivation for not joining her, apart from the fact she lied to us and abandoned us.

THE PLAN when uBPDw and I last spoke was for me to move to where she is and resume our relationship.  THE PROBLEM:  Our relationship as a married couple is in rough shape.  Prior to her leaving, she had shut me out emotionally and we have been living as roommates/brother and sister since 2012.  uBPDw said during blowouts we are business partners and we were in a holding pattern.  That she would have left me already if she weren't afraid of losing access to the girls.  I am in my 4th year of celibacy.  This is just illustrative.  I know I have had the power to leave up to this point.  Maybe I'm "illustrating" I am a dork? ;-)

At the end of the hour-long unusual call mentioned above and since then I have been mulling it over in my mind and heart.  I feel I see things in a new light and that I am silly for thinking this will ever work.  She has said by her own admission she will never attend counseling "except to help us fill out ''paperwork'!"  )her euphemism for dissolution papers.  She has, by her own admission, asked me for a divorce/dissolution 6 times in the past 30 years.

Considering what I know to be true with regard to her willingness to put forth real effort to save this relationship, I am beginning to question what the return-per-unit effort will be.  I am 48 years old.  I don't want to wake up at 58 years old and regret every ounce of effort put forth in a hopeless cause.

As a way of making clear what I mean (and highlighting my newfound awareness of co-dependency) I have often thought of getting matching t-shirts made for uBPDw and I.  One would say "Sisyphus" for me and the other would say "Rock" for her.

I don't know what I want from this post.  Sorry.  I will be sure to avail myself of the particular lessons intended for posters on this board.

[OnceConfused]

Dobzhansky:

I don't know much about the background of your life story here, but based solely on your current post, I can see several things:

1. At the age of 48, your sexual demand still is strong and so far you have been 4 years in celibacy, not by choice. One of the things about marriage and monogamy is also about sex. That is not good, unless you have vowed to be a catholic priest.

2. Her lack of communications with the daughters. This just shows the situation is more severe than what to meet the eyes.

3. The plan is for you to move to where she is and resume your relationship. You are right in the sense that you have not had a r.s. How does your being there is different than you being here ? What has changed since all the past problems as you wrote ?

4. She asked for divorce 6 times . This shows me that somewhere in her mind, divorce is on the radar screen. At least, she has shown you her cards for now. 

Wayne Dyer has this wonderful saying which I would like to share with you:

":)on't die with the music still is in you."

This means live and live fully to all of your capacities. The capacity to enjoy life, to be in love, to be at peace, to LIFE FULLY IN THE MOMENT. 

Leo Tolstoy has also this interesting quote , which befits what Wayne Dyer said:

'I hope that when I am on my death bed and it is my time to move on I can look back on my life and feel like I have no regrets."

Have no regrets -- Have no regrets ... Play all the music that are inside of you, for the world, for yourself , for your children and your grand children.  Perhaps you both want to leave the r.s but unable to express that clearly , so you have to decide whether what you are living NOW is what you want . Sometimes, leaving will release all the pressure of being married together, and it will give you both freedom from hurting each other, freedom to seek your own happiness.

May I send you all the green lights.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dob, I echo OnceConfused.  I suggest that you postpone any decision on moving to where she is.  What is the point?  What makes you think it will go differently this time?  From what you are saying, I don't sense that your W has changed.  It sounds to me like perhaps your W is using your faith to manipulate you.  You don't have to be miserable for the rest of your life, as OnceConfused notes.  Like you, I believed in my marriage vows and stayed loyal to my BPDxW, who was extremely unkind and abusive towards me.  I almost destroyed myself in the process and only made the break after two kind friends and a family member conducted an intervention.  Not fun, but it helped me to find my path again.  This may sound melodramatic, but they saved my life.  You don't want to get to that point, believe me.

LuckyJim

[Dobzhansky]

Lucky Jim -

Thanks very much - I appreciate your candor.  Im curious about what form the intervention took?

Thanks

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Dob,

Two college friends and my brother arranged to meet with me for several hours on a Saturday.

The bottom line is that I couldn't afford to lose the support of my friends and brother because, without them, I would be left alone with an abusive alcoholic, my BPDxW.

They assured me that they would continue to lend emotional and financial support through the b/u with my Ex.

At that point, I was a shadow of my former self and had exhausted all my resources -- physical, emotional, financial -- in a high conflict marriage to a pwBPD.  I'm a loyal person and was determined not to give up.  Yet I reached a breaking point, where I was destroying myself in the process, which I concluded was no good to anyone, particularly my kids.

Anyway, in my case the intervention worked.

LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

P.S.  I should add that being the subject of an intervention, needless to say, was a humiliating experience, yet probably saved my life.  (Sorry if that sounds melodramatic, but it's true).

LJ

[unicorn2014]

Hi -

Haven't been here for awhile.  Life got busy, though, and my "whatevers" got pushed to the back burner.  uBPDw and I have been calling weekly and texting daily over the past 16 months she has been living in another state - nothing good or amazing as we talked, just nuts-and-bolts.  She has been away from our home, and our children and I since July 20, 2014.  Left us emotionally 6 months before that.  She has moved to be nearer her family of origin 1500+ miles away.  My children have not spoken with their mother in over 8 months, apart from the occasional advice sought on how to remove stains, etc.  She has visited us here only briefly.  My daughters are against going to see her on her "turf" at all, and have elected to stay home for the summer, and for this Christmas.

I have been, up to now, on the "Staying" board but seem to have turned a corner, so to speak.  My Catholic faith requires me to stay in the relationship no matter what.  I was happy to do so, until this past weekend.  We talked for a hour about deep things, rather than the quick 15 minutes check in.  During this call, she cried some, I supported and used "SET" (yes I am co-dependent) but did not "poke the bear".

During all this time she has continually lamented the loss of relationship with daughters brought on by her sudden, unannounced departure in July of 2014.  I have not pointed out the obvious - that she left and the distance brought to the mother-daughter communication is a direct result.  I have consistently told uBPDw I advocate for her often w the girls by assuring them their mother loves them, but also that mom is ill and likely cannot engage in a loving relationship in the way they need her to.  The girls emotions, concerns and feelings are validated and supported.  I am assured of this by them and by T which we all see every other week.

In the past year uBPDw has said "I love you" to me rarely and "I miss you" never.

During the long talk mentioned above uBPDw and myself discussed the beneficial effects of counseling on my girls and I - indeed, we are enjoying a better relationship than we have EVER had (not hyperbole here).  uBPDw said that was great for daughters and I, but also she reminded me of how much she didn't like going to counseling and how this would not be an option, ever.

I have a good job here and a good pension upon which I will be eligible to draw in less than 2 years.  My uBPDw and I had agreed some time ago to stick out the required time, then retire together (we are part of the same pension and bennies plan).  Not sure why I shared this, but I guess I wanted to share the motivation for not joining her, apart from the fact she lied to us and abandoned us.

THE PLAN when uBPDw and I last spoke was for me to move to where she is and resume our relationship.  THE PROBLEM:  Our relationship as a married couple is in rough shape.  Prior to her leaving, she had shut me out emotionally and we have been living as roommates/brother and sister since 2012.  uBPDw said during blowouts we are business partners and we were in a holding pattern.  That she would have left me already if she weren't afraid of losing access to the girls.  I am in my 4th year of celibacy.  This is just illustrative.  I know I have had the power to leave up to this point.  Maybe I'm "illustrating" I am a dork? ;-)

At the end of the hour-long unusual call mentioned above and since then I have been mulling it over in my mind and heart.  I feel I see things in a new light and that I am silly for thinking this will ever work.  She has said by her own admission she will never attend counseling "except to help us fill out ''paperwork'!"  )her euphemism for dissolution papers.  She has, by her own admission, asked me for a divorce/dissolution 6 times in the past 30 years.

Considering what I know to be true with regard to her willingness to put forth real effort to save this relationship, I am beginning to question what the return-per-unit effort will be.  I am 48 years old.  I don't want to wake up at 58 years old and regret every ounce of effort put forth in a hopeless cause.

As a way of making clear what I mean (and highlighting my newfound awareness of co-dependency) I have often thought of getting matching t-shirts made for uBPDw and I.  One would say "Sisyphus" for me and the other would say "Rock" for her.

I don't know what I want from this post.  Sorry.  I will be sure to avail myself of the particular lessons intended for posters on this board.

I'm sorry you are going through all that. All I can say is that remaining in an emotionally dead relationship leaves both people open to affairs, even if they are just intellectual or emotional. That was the situation I walked into 3 years ago. My now fiancé did not consider himself married so when I asked him if he was he denied it. Unfortunately his soon to be ex wife (whom I did not know about until she intercepted a text message and introduced herself to me, assuming I knew of her existence) did not see things the same way even though they had been living as roommates for some time.  My fiancé refers to his soon to be ex wife as his soon to be ex roommate. He does not have children with her and is not Catholic, but was raised in another Christian faith.

[pallavirajsinghani]

Please allow me to ask the following as the answer will shed some clarity:

She wants the divorce but hasn't filed the papers... .is she afraid that you will not grant her a divorce and/or resist it because of your faith and sense of loyalty?

If she files for a divorce, will you grant it gracefully?

Faith and belief and the self are so tightly intertwined in a person's psyche that it is difficult to determine where actions and decisions are based on faith, where they are based on inertia, where they are based on a personal sense of morality (distinct from religious faith).  These are not quantifiable, hence I thought of asking the above questions.

[Dobzhansky]

Thank you all for the support - lots of good ideas... .

To pallavirajsinghani:  I truly do not know if she would give the divorce gracefuuly.  She can get mean in a hurry.  As for me, my whole self has been tied up in this relationship as I have always considered "husband" and "father" to be my primary vocations and career - such as it is - to be very secondary.  I feel she is still attached to the idea of "Family" and has railed repeatedly on how the girls show no interest in moving to where she is, in spite of all of the opportunities it offers (rural to urban setting)

She gets in a huff during a blowout and starts calling for a divorce, but then pulls back and says "Never mind.  I didnt mean it.  Lets just go back to the status quo".  We attended 6 sessions of marriage counseling by a guy who really didnt mesh well with us - before she left our home to live by herself closer to her parents.  Much closer (within 2 miles). 

During the marriage counseling, in the first session, he asked her if she were thinking of leaving the relationship.  She replied "Not anymore" and started crying.  Said she would feel like a failure if she did.  It is my opinion she pushes to get me to break and initiate instead.  Then she can point fingers and feel better that it wasnt her.  I am sure part of that also is not to alienate the girls in to hating her more than she believes they already do.

I imagine a divorce could be undertaken with grace, as there really seems no reason to do it otherwise.  She has all of her worldly possessions with her, and has bought anything else she might need.  The chief sticking point would be the house the girls and I currently occupy.  Living there is much cheaper than local rent prices and uBPDw may go nuclear and demand her half of the proceeds from a house sale.  Apart from that, our long 30 year history together would point towards uBPDw and I disentangling our lives with respect and love - I imagine scenarios where that might be possible... .she likely would allow it to happen w/o too much of a stink.  I think if uBPDw is unable to separate her relationship w girls and her relationship to me (she imagines us all to be on one side against her) that things could get vindictive and ugly.

She has a grandmother with deep pockets - could do much with a lawyer if she had a mind.  uBPDw is a devotee of "Kardashians" and also of "Wives of Beverly Hills" and other such shows.  When a cast member "liberates" herself from a marriage, she is applauded very loudly.  "She has a right to be happy".

[Dobzhansky]

To All Who Advocate (very reasonably) Terminating as a Way of Protecting Oneself:

I understand I am not to draw any conclusions or take any actions based solely on the advice gleaned here.  That being said:

How do I hope to even afford an attorney (assuming she offers little to no resistance)?

[OnceConfused]

i think the cheapest way is to have a dissolution , not a divorce. You might wnt to google dissolution and see what it entails. My understanding is that with a dissolution both parties just need to come to agreements about the assets and whatever. Little involvement from an attorney thus the low cost.

[Dobzhansky]

Now for one of the bits I find challenging... .

We had our weekly chat this evening.  I went in to the phone call slightly upset over a picture I had seen posted in which she was posing w family on the steps of a house after a family gathering.  She had a giant smile on her face and was center in the photo, on the top step in the middle (the picture was taken in front of her rental property).  In the picture she seems satisfied (not happy as I don't know if I have ever seen her that way) if thats the right word.  Satisfied to have had family members in her new place.  It seemed as though the fact four members of her immediate family still felt her absence very keenly didn't matter.  I felt like stirring something up and telling her.  I didn't, though as I found it very easy (through habit or otherwise) to keep the conversation her-centered:  "How do you like your new job?"  "It was neat to see all those family members in your photo on-line"  "How is everybody getting on?"

I am asked briefly how I am, but the talk soon turns toward what my girls are up to.  Is so and so doing well in school?  How is so and so doing with her grades?  This is a household issue youll need to look in to... ."

Then she usually fonds some reason to get off the phone.  No chance for any close talk about she or I or us and how we matter as a couple.

All in all a favorable interaction, but insufficient considering the situation.  Thoughts?

[OnceConfused]

why don't you or she offer to  spend 1 week together to talk about things that matter to BOTH OF YOU, like your relationship? Is that what people in a marriage do - BE TOGETHER ?