Is this the line in the sand?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well, DH emailed Mom a few weeks ago to finalize the school year schedule. He said that while he'd be fine with going back to last year's schedule, he understood that it might not work for her, so he proposed 2 options. DH has 2 weekdays off, plus weekends, BTW.

Also, if you remember, Mom pulled the kids out of the school they were at last year after finding out that DH will be teaching there. We thought she was going to enroll them in a different school, but it turns out that she's going to totally homeschool them. I have no problem with homeschooling per se (had a great personal experience, and I think some of the benefits are flexibility and real-life experiences).

So Mom's email came back yesterday with, among many hints at DH's "questionable [emotional] background" and statements about how the girls couldn't be themselves and freely learn with him around, the following proposal:

During Week A, DH sees SD7 for 2 hours, then AFTER that, sees SD9 for 2 hours, in the evening of day X.

During Week B, DH sees both kiddos from noon on day X through 7 pm the next day.

Mom proposed "working towards" having the kids spend 2 nights in a row. This "working towards" is what she proposed 2 years ago. Mom also said that she supports DH’s relationship with the girls and believes her plan is best for their emotional health. Mom also said that she’ll need 5 days a week to do the girls’ schooling, and that she wants the girls to just have fun with DH without the “stress” of him helping them with their HW. Plus more great things in the email.

SD7 out of the blue told DH a few days ago that she's worried she's gonna spend less time with him. DH asked if anyone had said anything to make her worried, and she said no, she just is. DH told SD9 yesterday about the gist of Mom’s plan, and asked if it was what SD9 really wanted. SD9 said No.

So… where to go from here? DH has just tried to work things out w/ Mom for the past however many years. But I think this latest email has really opened his eyes to what she wants. She wants him out and is going to frame his efforts to stay actively involved as “not what the girls want” or “emotionally dangerous” or whatever. DH is pretty worried that taking this to the next level (ie court) would exponentially increase the chaos and vitriol the kids are exposed to with Mom. It’s already clear from mutual friends that Mom is verbally negative about DH a lot at home. On the one hand I see DH’s anguish. He really, really doesn’t want to be the one, in a sense, to turn on Mom’s faucet on them, if that makes sense. But on the other hand, it’s like… isn’t this going on already? The chaos and vitriol? Isn’t it already bad if this is what Mom is suggesting, if she’s already putting DH down in front of the kids, all that stuff? So how much worse would court make it? And is this a line in the sand?

OK, so, lots of maybe unanswerable questions. Let me see if I can sift through and get a few.

How would a court look at Mom’s proposed schedule?

Should DH make another attempt to be cooperative with her? If so, is it more to have a “paper trail” of trying again?

Tips on what to look for in a good family lawyer? 

How can we help the girls deal with the chaos and hate that might increase from Mom?

What other questions should DH & I be asking right now?

Thank you all so much.

[kells76]

Well, DH emailed Mom a few weeks ago to finalize the school year schedule. He said that while he'd be fine with going back to last year's schedule, he understood that it might not work for her, so he proposed 2 options. DH has 2 weekdays off, plus weekends, BTW.

Also, if you remember, Mom pulled the kids out of the school they were at last year after finding out that DH will be teaching there. We thought she was going to enroll them in a different school, but it turns out that she's going to totally homeschool them. I have no problem with homeschooling per se (had a great personal experience, and I think some of the benefits are flexibility and real-life experiences).

So Mom's email came back yesterday with, among many hints at DH's "questionable [emotional] background" and statements about how the girls couldn't be themselves and freely learn with him around, the following proposal:

During Week A, DH sees SD7 for 2 hours, then AFTER that, sees SD9 for 2 hours, in the evening of day X.

During Week B, DH sees both kiddos from noon on day X through 7 pm the next day.

Mom proposed "working towards" having the kids spend 2 nights in a row. This "working towards" is what she proposed 2 years ago. Mom also said that she supports DH’s relationship with the girls and believes her plan is best for their emotional health. Mom also said that she’ll need 5 days a week to do the girls’ schooling, and that she wants the girls to just have fun with DH without the “stress” of him helping them with their HW. Plus more great things in the email.

SD7 out of the blue told DH a few days ago that she's worried she's gonna spend less time with him. DH asked if anyone had said anything to make her worried, and she said no, she just is. DH told SD9 yesterday about the gist of Mom’s plan, and asked if it was what SD9 really wanted. SD9 said No.

So… where to go from here? DH has just tried to work things out w/ Mom for the past however many years. But I think this latest email has really opened his eyes to what she wants. She wants him out and is going to frame his efforts to stay actively involved as “not what the girls want” or “emotionally dangerous” or whatever. DH is pretty worried that taking this to the next level (ie court) would exponentially increase the chaos and vitriol the kids are exposed to with Mom. It’s already clear from mutual friends that Mom is verbally negative about DH a lot at home. On the one hand I see DH’s anguish. He really, really doesn’t want to be the one, in a sense, to turn on Mom’s faucet on them, if that makes sense. But on the other hand, it’s like… isn’t this going on already? The chaos and vitriol? Isn’t it already bad if this is what Mom is suggesting, if she’s already putting DH down in front of the kids, all that stuff? So how much worse would court make it? And is this a line in the sand?

OK, so, lots of maybe unanswerable questions. Let me see if I can sift through and get a few.

How would a court look at Mom’s proposed schedule?

Should DH make another attempt to be cooperative with her? If so, is it more to have a “paper trail” of trying again?

Tips on what to look for in a good family lawyer? 

How can we help the girls deal with the chaos and hate that might increase from Mom?

What other questions should DH & I be asking right now?

Thank you all so much.

[Turkish]

Mom also said that she’ll need 5 days a week to do the girls’ schooling, and that she wants the girls to just have fun with DH without the “stress” of him helping them with their HW. Plus more great things in the email.

Trojan horse alert! But it sounds like you already see though this. As for home schooling, I don't see how the kids spending even more time with a disordered parent will be healthy, as opposed to peers.

[david]

I see this as a boundary. Does ex have any experience with homeschooling. There is a lot involved. If she is as disordered as she sounds this will not work well for the kids.

At some point I found that the only way to deal with ex was to stand firm for what I thought best for our boys. Went to court a bunch of times. Had a co parent coordinator that didn't help. Had a co parent counselor that actually ended things after 5 or 6 meetings when he realized ex just wanted to fight and had no interest or ability to co parent. Tried mediation years ago and that was a waste of time.

Until I finally said no to her nonsense things did not improve.

[kells76]

Turkish, DH is considering saying something like "if you feel the need to homeschool 5 days a week, how about Tuesday through Saturday, then I could spend Mondays with them". I have a feeling that would be calling her bluff. But it also raises the question, related to David's point about just saying no -- should DH even make that offer? Or is this situation past the point of trying to compromise? Which is connected to another question -- will DH have to be strategic and look ahead to how a court/judge would view this? Would it be a bad move, despite the fact that we all know mom probably won't compromise, to just skip the "hey, let's find a solution" step and go right to the No Way part?

David, Mom has homeschooled the kids off and on. Both kids were in a classroom 3 days/wk last year and did great. Sd9 was in the same school the year before, but sd7 wasn't. Mom does not have an educational background (which is not an immediate deal breaker for homeschooling, IMHO, but her disorderedness sure is   )

I think underlying all this for me is a fear that while DH, our counselor, & a few friends see the disorderedness, what if a mediator doesn't? David, was that your experience with coordinators/mediators -- that Mom won them over & they didn't see the other side of her? I worry that if this escalates, we'll find ourselves being told by a professional that we should just try to work with her more, be more compromising, see her POV better, all that stuff. I'm afraid that her pattern of slowly eroding DH's time is so subtle that her words will win.

[Nope]

The court is more interested in the best interests of the kids over anyone's words. If she can't give the court hard reasons backed up by fact for why limiting their dad's time is in their best interests then the court will eventually catch on.

I think he should definitely start thinking of every single email as though it is something the court will view. And every attempt to work with the mom and compromise should be documented to show that she isn't looking for solutions and that is why court intervention is needed.

It's a tough road. But if she's really looking to slowly cut him out then that's the only way to stop her. When my DH took his uBPDex to court they had a GAL who wrote in her report that she had serious concerns that the ex had absolutely no regard for DH's right to be a part of the kids lives and just as little consideration for the kids need to have their father in their lives. The reality was clear as day. Particularly because she was trying to take away some of his limited summer parenting time with the excuse that the kids were maturing and would want to spend more time with their local friends than out of state with their dad.

Kids need their healthy parent very badly in these situations. Simply getting a court order that dictates exactly what the parenting time parameters are will probably stop a lot of this. There would be lots of upheaval and bad feelings during the process. But as long as a new normal is in place that is basically accepted by both parties then that can be the end of it and life can go on.

[kells76]

So if DH decides to go that route, what's a good way to explain what's going on to the kids? Something like "I love you both very much and will always be part of your life. Mom and I have different ideas about how that looks. Usually we have been able to figure something out together, but this time we need more help, so we're having a professional help us decide on a good schedule. It's hard work, so you may hear people say angry, negative, or confusing things about me. You can always ask me what is true about me and I will tell you."

Something like that?

[david]

My experience is three custody evals, two parent coordinators, one co parent counselor, and numerous times in court in front of various judges.

In the beginning I didn't have a clear plan and I was learning the rules of the game. I also had a bad attorney that did not understand my ex and why and what I was trying to accomplish. Once I got past that (lots of money and time) I found that having a clear plan about what I thought6 is best and being able to defend it from all angles was the key for me. The first eval was a disaster for me and the boys. I really didn't know what to expect and the evaluator went along with everything ex said. I thought the evaluator would see right through ex since it seemed so obvious to me. The second one I stood firm on my beliefs and pretty much achieved what I was trying to achieve. The last one was court ordered and I had a good attorney. He gave a list of three evaluators that he said were good. Ex's atty agreed with one of them. Ex used the same tactics as before but this time I listened and wrote every lie down. When it was my turn to speak I explained all the "misperceptions" by ex and said it in a nice tone. I also pointed out the things I could prove and the things I had no proof on. I remained calm the entire time. Ex got more and more agitated and actually threatened the evaluator at our last meeting.

"Mom home schooled off and on". That is not consistent and I would focus on that. Also the fact that they did very well in school would be something I would keep bringing up in various ways. The social aspects of going to a school are beneficial in a multitude of ways. I have nothing against home schooling. I am a school teacher and would prefer our boys to be in a good school which they are. The resources in a good school system, I believe, far out weigh the advantages of home schooling. If our boys were to go to an inadequate school then I would opt for home schooling. That would be my main deciding point.

[david]

I also think my biggest stumbling block was trying to co parent with someone that is incapable of doing just that. I switched to parallel parenting. At first , it was difficult knowing when to communicate and when not to. Now I don't even think about it anymore. I do what I think is best.

The only time I communicate with ex is when someone is ill or pick up times. That is pretty much it. I view ex as a court ordered requirement. I dealt with several extinction bursts but eventually that subsided.

I was concerned for our boys about what she would do to them if she didn't have me to rage at or negatively engage with. My T pointed out that if I didn't change the dynamics it would stay the same. Ex still tries things but it is old news now and doesn't phase me. Her behaviors have also pushed our two boys further away from her ? She is very self defeating. I feel bad for some of the nonsense they have to deal with but the courts will not fix that and neither can I.

[kells76]

David, thanks for your continuing thoughts on the situation.

In your penultimate post, you mentioned that having a clear plan of what you wanted was more helpful than assuming professionals would see through your ex, among other things. Would you be willing to share some details? I.e., was this related to a schedule? Hours per week? Behaviors that should change or not happen? I guess what I'm asking is -- how specific did you get in your plan? Was it more like "I want the kids to spend x amount of time with me" or was it a whole detailed parenting time sched? Was your plan just for you, to keep you focused, or did you share it with others/evaluators/etc?

And then in terms of your ex's self-defeating behaviors -- this is something I have mixed feelings about. Part of me wants to hold on to the hope that she's just digging herself into a hole, that both kids will see it in time, and that I can rest assured that based on her pattern of behavior, she won't magically get just functional enough to keep them in the dark forever. Kind of like telling myself that hey, even if there's nothing I can do to make things better, I can rest assure the kids will see the truth in time.

But on the other hand, it's not a guarantee, and it seems like cutting Mom loose (in a way, if DH starts legal stuff) comes at a price. And I don't want to hold on to a false belief ("do nothing, give mom enough time, kids will come around" just to soothe myself.

I'll keep y'all posted on developments, as DH replied to Mom's email with the Sunday-Thursday suggestion and a No on 2 hours per week. Starting some boundaries... .

[ForeverDad]

I first wrote this several years ago, the year of my final decree, and then periodically as seemed appropriate.  Ponder this.

It is so hard to know what is the absolute without a single doubt "right" thing to do.  No one can ever be 100% sure that there isn't something else we could have done or said better.  That is why I often say here, do your reasonable best.  Later, perhaps even years from now, when your daughter asks, ":)addy, did you fight for me?" you can answer, "Yes, I sure did, very hard, I did my [reasonable] best."  She won't really expect Superman who leaps tall buildings in a single bound, she just wants her Dad to be there for her, doing what he can.  And you are.

Yes, and when dealing with BPD, sometimes it's a bit beyond reasonable best!

Can SO put himself into his future life 10 years from now when his daughters are grown and could very well ask that question?  How might he answer?  Then, what does he think he should do now to do his reasonable best and a bit more?  Trying to avoid conflict and triggering isn't really a good strategy long term, it's weak compared to the relentless obstruction and drip-drip (chinese torture) sabotage.

It sounds like he's hoping to reach an equitable deal and she's too entitled to really negotiate.  Over on the Family Law board I often comment that mediation and settlements rarely work early in the divorce process, the other is just too entitled and needs to feel painted into a corner before agreeing to something even halfway reasonable.  Their relationship has been over for many years but he never got her to the point where she felt she HAD to negotiate for reasonable terms.  Her perceptions are a big bubble of entitlement where she as Mother must be strong and he as Father must be weak.  Sadly, she doesn't perceive he has any authority as Father.  But the Real Authority is family court.  To get meaningful - and improved - resolution the only option left is court.  As I see it the recent years have been one step forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back, small improvements here and there but far less than he should have gotten by now.

And, taking the long view, I think the girls would look back years from now and agree they preferred the strong dad rather than the accommodating, always asking, dad.  Even if it meant some short term ramped up conflict.

Another edit... .mother stating that she would let him work toward a two overnights weekend is ridiculous.  Two and three overnights alternate weekends are the minimum standard nearly everywhere.  In my case my ex was trying to block my parenting by accusing me of the vilest, most perverted acts possible with a boy but CPS stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me and I immediately got 'standard' full alternate weekends, 3 consecutive overnights from Friday PM to Monday PM or school.  And 3 hours in between.  It took years but my parenting time never looked back, it always moved up from there.

[ForeverDad]

And I feel that he should never be favorable to home schooling.  While he can accept that it is (currently) her decision to make, he should not agree with it.  And when submitting papers to court and when in court he needs to express his deep reservations about the schooling change and the obvious connections to why mother did that.

His children are approaching ages where they really value time regularly socializing with their peers, an important facet of growing up.  Court may very well agree that mother is not looking out for the children's interests but father is.  Though mother has full custody now, he could seek to change it to joint and have Decision Making or Tie Breaker.  (That may require filing something like Change of Circumstances, for the court to agree there is a need to change some of the custody terms.)  Yes, he may not get it all from the first attempt, but even getting some of it is better than timidly asking for just a little and getting only crumbs.

His position will also be that she is not doing home schooling for the children but instead doing it to block him possibly having more contact with his children in an open school environment.  My custody evaluator wrote in his summary, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."  (The 'her' quotes were right there in the report's text!)  That meant a lot to the CE.

In general, courts would prefer having the parent who is more willing to share in charge.  On the flip side, mothers do seem to get default preference and she's been in charge for a while now, so they won't be inclined to make big changes without some real reasons.

[Nope]

So if DH decides to go that route, what's a good way to explain what's going on to the kids? Something like "I love you both very much and will always be part of your life. Mom and I have different ideas about how that looks. Usually we have been able to figure something out together, but this time we need more help, so we're having a professional help us decide on a good schedule. It's hard work, so you may hear people say angry, negative, or confusing things about me. You can always ask me what is true about me and I will tell you."

Something like that?

Yup. That's great. That lets the kids know what's coming. The big mistake I feel we made was not talking to the kids AT ALL about what was happening before the poop hit the fan. Then we were on the offense in terms of court because we were the ones filing, but on the defense with the kids because they were subjected to more of their mom's poison all of the sudden and had no idea what really changed.

As for how the parenting plan, my suggestion is to make it as specific as humanly possible. Think in terms of excruciating details. With exactly what days and and times and what the exact expectations are for what will be done and provided by each party. You need to look at every sentence and say to yourself, "If she wanted to intentionally misinterpret this in a way that will cause more drama, aggravation, and obstruction, could she do so?"

Here is an example: In my case the court ordered the BPDm to pay 15% of the children's medical care costs. The order said that DH had to provide her with a copy of the bill and a copy of the signed receipt in order to prove what the paid amount was. The order said that we needed to get her copies of the receipts "immediately" once we had them signed so that we couldn't do that jerky thing of waiting until everything piles up to send her a big bill. As she lives three states away we started sending her scanned copies in PDF format attached to emails. We did this because it was an unreimbursable and time consuming burden to have to mail the receipts out to her as they came in. In the email we asked her how she intended to pay. She wrote back saying she would "be happy to pay" but that the order said she was to receive paper copies of both the bills and receipts. We re-read the order and it said nothing about paper copies. We responded to her telling her this and asking again how she intended to pay. She just simply didn't respond back. So at least if we decide to take her to court for the reimbursements we can honestly say we've done everything we were supposed to do. But the key there was wording. One simple word, "copies" instead of, "paper copies".

[ForeverDad]

I may have written in bold tones but it's influenced greatly by my past parenting issues and the need to set boundaries before nearly everything else.  Before we separated I lived the life of squeaky "Mr Bill! Mr Bill!" (Gumby knockoff in Saturday Night Live) as I got squeezed through the elevator doors and everything else the claymation figure suffered.  Over the years I been working on holding to good boundaries.  In the post excerpted below I addressed some boundaries that should help, though of course there would be some short term pain.

H has been more or less sidelined and will continue to be sidelined unless he sets a few boundaries, that is, makes his stand on the issues he's concerned about.

(#1) I think it was said he's not getting as much time with the children as the order states.

(#2) When he communicates with her, he shouldn't say homeschooling is a good idea.  What he can say is it's her decision in the current order.

(#3) H ought to ponder if now might be the first time he has sufficient basis to return to court seeking (1) better clarity in the order and (2) changing her full custody to joint custody and him having some level of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.

He can't do everything at once but he can ponder the various issues, determine which ones are the highest priorities, what the lawyers view as doable and what would benefit the children the most.

I think I wrote this before, but the longer the kids are in home schooling, the harder it will be for a court to have them return to school.  Courts don't like to change what seems to be working, or at least not imploding.  On the other hand, if she really messes up home schooling, a long shot, it may give ammunition for the court motions.

[david]

My ex ran away in 2007. I was given EOW, a Monday dinner until 8pm, and two weeks in the summer. I went to court with the argument that I was a school teacher ans should have more time during the school year. The judge made the summer 50/50 and kept the school year the same ? That was from the second eval which said it was a good idea to give more time to father. I then copied every home work from our youngest (2nd grade). I don't remember the exact number but he was doing over 90% of his homework when with me. Over half of what he did at his mom's was incomplete and/or incorrect. I had copies of those too. I had him do corrections with me, signed and dated, and copied. Mom signed and dated everyone she he did at her place since I was doing that at my place so there was no denying. I tried through email to "negotiate" / "co parent" with her about it. That was a waste of time except I now had proof that she was not co parenting. I then filed for more time during the school year and a solid reason.

Ex dragged things out for over two years with her atty. Finally she agreed to 50/50 throughout the year.

Our third eval started with individual meetings. I stayed focused on school and the boys. We then had a joint meeting. Ex stared with all kinds of allegations and the evaluator let her go just like the other times. This time I wrote down the lies she was saying. When it was my turn to reply I simply pointed out each untruth and whether I had evidence to prove it or not. If I had evidence I said what it was and offered to bring it to the next meeting. That was the entire third meeting. A few days later the evaluator called to reschedule the next joint meeting and he asked me what I thought. I told him that I was tired of all the false allegations and have been dealing with this for several years now. I told him I only communicate through email and have hundreds of examples of ex making no attempt at working together for the sake of the kids. I pointed out several things ex said at the meeting and said this is what has been going on since she left. I didn't ubderstand how this was helping either boy.

The next two meetings went pretty much the same: ex make some wild allegation and me denying it or pointing out the absurdity.

I was seeking every Monday and Thursday during the school year and EOW. I was fine with the week on/week off during the summer. Normally the courts would prefer 2/2 5/5 split but that wasn't what I thought would be best. I wanted Monday because that was the start of the school week and I could set the tone every start. Ex also worked Monday and that would help her. Thursday was the day for me to help the boys for whatever tests they had on Friday which was a normal testing day. I also could go over whatever needed to be looked at from Tuesday and Wednesday. I stuck to that as my plan.

The evaluator said how about me having Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday and mom having every weekend. I thought that was a good idea except for the fact that I think down time (weekend time) should be accounted for too. He argued with me a little about that and I stood firm. I honestly think he was testing me to see how I would handle myself and whether I really was committed to what I thought best.

[david]

Our original court order (2007) was written by the judge. It was vague and pretty much the standard order in that county.

The next time we were in court the judge gave use two weeks to hand in a proposal and he would make a decision based on the two proposals. I wrote the entire thing myself. I spent two weeks doing it. Researched things, talked to people in a grass roots organization in the area, read many things on this site. I knew what wasn't working in the original order and spelled things out very specifically to minimize/eliminate any conflict. Ex wrote a two page paper saying I was abusive and that things should stay the same. The judge copied my proposal exactly with the exception of additional time.

I spelled out holidays, pick up times, method of communication (email), ROFR, how changes could be made to the order (basically either parent could email the other with a change and the change could not occur until both parties said yes in an email. Once that happened the agreement could not be changed in any way unless another agreement was reached through email in a similar fashion. Ex liked to change her mind a lot back then and this nailed it down)

That order is the majority of our current order. The only thing in our order that was not written by me was 50/50 during the school year and that was written by my atty. He gave it to me to read for a few days and to get back to him if I could think of anything that needed to be addressed. I thought it was fine and that is what he gave the judge.

[kells76]

ForeverDad, hi again, and thank you so much for your input. You've written so much that it'll take me a bit of time to reread & process but I just wanted to let you know I appreciate it.

Same to you David! I'm reading some of your posts from the legal board also (and yours ForeverDad) and those are helpful too.

All that reading has brought another question to mind for me:

-kids' mom said DH had "abusive behaviors" in front of mediator and she generally hints in emails about how DH is emotionally negative for the girls in various ways. My take is somewhat different  that while DH and I certainly have failed in parenting, that's different than Mom "picking the scab" on the kids about how bad DH is. Counseling seems like not a bad idea for the kids in this situation and if they need a place to complain about us too that is fine. Mom, though, believes herself sufficient to counsel and emotionally support the kids, and has turned down our offer to pay for counseling for the kids (verbally a few years back). Now that things are heating up, would it be worth it for DH to offer to cover counseling for the kids again, in email this time? It seems like a win win: if she agrees, then at least the kids are getting an advocate/third party. If she disagrees, that can't reflect well on her, right? I mean, there she is talking about how traumatizing DH is to the kids, and how she wants them to "thrive". But if she says all that but says no, the kids don't need counseling... .See what I'm thinking?

Hope that makes sense. Thanks for bearing with my glut of questions. I know this is DHs battle in a way, but it helps me to learn as much as I can along the way. I'll probably have more questions once I reread David's & FD's posts (and you too Nope).

[david]

My ex wanted the boys in counseling. I agreed. I discovered over the first few years after she ran away that she had been going to a counselor herself when we were together. She never told me about it at all. We went to a counseling session together (kids, her, and me) and that was the same old bs that went on anywhere we were together. It was always my fault in some way. I didn't see anything positive and stopped going together. We went through several counselors that ex picked. Ex always took the lead and set it all up. I sensed that the counselors were fed info from ex that was not true. The last counselor caught on to ex and that ended ex's desire for counseling.

The school the boys go to had an after school program (I forget the name) that was for separated or divorced families. That helped our oldest son a lot. Our youngest bottled everything up and eventually opened up to me. He doesn't trust counseling and just says what he thinks the counselor wants to hear.

Ex is till seeing a T. She indicated it in emails. I assume she is telling the truth but I don't think it is helping. Her emails are much nicer than back in 2007. Back then they all had digs/attacks/ accusations/etc. I used to get about 30 to 40 emails a month. That went down a year or two ago to about 4 or 5 a month. The last two months she has ramped up again to about 10 to 15. Several of these have vague allegations or insinuations. I have not replied to any email like that even if there is something about the boys. There has been nothing that absolutely needed a reply so I let it go. Her emails have now morphed into letting me in on personal info about her that I simply don't need to know or care to know. It might be an attempt at charming. That hasn't happened before but her emails seem to be looking for a rescuer or a sympathetic ear. I don't have a good reason to believe anything she says so I don't think it makes sense to reply.

Several weeks ago she indicated that she was having surgery. I later found out that did not happen. She tried to convince the kids too and they figured out that she was lying. She even had a walker at her place and used it for a day. If I replied to these emails I would feel like I have to point out the lies and that would lead to a vicious email sent back to me.

If DH and you think counseling would be good for the kids then I would find someone you think is right and start. Let ex know once things are set in motion. My ex would not object unless I tried to make her take them too since I would then be trying to "control" her although I would offer for her to be included.

My ex tried to get the boys in counseling and exclude me completely. At the time we had a parent coordinator. I objected because I was not allowed to participate at all and I heard bad things about the place she wanted to take them. The pc gave me 48 hours to contact the place and get back to her. I sent an email to the director and they refused to get back to me. My suspicion was that ex found an ally and wanted to try to alienate the kids from me. I made two more attempts at contacting them and gave all the info to the pc. The pc ruled that if I was excluded ex could not use their services. Nothing more came of that.

[ForeverDad]

The evaluator said how about me having Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday and mom having every weekend. I thought that was a good idea except for the fact that I think down time (weekend time) should be accounted for too. He argued with me a little about that and I stood firm. I honestly think he was testing me to see how I would handle myself and whether I really was committed to what I thought best.

Just a note about the "every weekend" concept.  Parents can always use a weekend 'off' and they also need weekends with the kids so they can do various activities, visit relatives, parks and assorted weekend events.  So I'd be very wary of losing all weekends (when most other people including kids are free for recreational activities) unless it really is for the best.

Courts have consistently defaulted to alternate weekends (or two weekends every month) under normal circumstances.  It generally is best not to mess with that basic feature unless there is a real advantage.  For example, that might be a consideration done for police, firefighters, etc who have non-standard schedules.

[livednlearned]

kells,

Sorry -- I'm about to head out so didn't read through all the responses. You have a lot of good advice and others have probably said this.

I was just thinking about what a judge might think. Based on the little I know of your situation, a judge might think: here's a controlling mom with a passive dad. Seems to be working ok for the kids.

That is not going to change unless your H shows that he has values (meaningful time with the girls) and boundaries (making sure ex does not call the shots about when he can see them).

No one wants to go to court. No one wants to fight. No one wants to make it worse. We all want enforceable boundaries, and pwBPD are steamrollers when it comes to our boundaries. We go to court to get help with this.

So a long term plan might be: 50/50 time with the kids. No more mom calling the shots. You have to prepare for the parental alienation to get worse when you set a boundary, so get counselors involved if you can. It sounds like PA is already happening now, and it will continue to happen. It's a radical acceptance type of moment when you realize that horse has already left the barn.

Your H tried to walk on eggshells with her, and by doing so he is losing precious time with the girls, that they need -- girls need their dads.

If you are at all contemplating legal action, consider having a lawyer review any emails you send until you have a strategy in place. It takes a while, but eventually things start falling into place and it actually reduces stress knowing that you have goals and values guiding you. The storm will rage around you, but H will have a compass bearing, plus you, to help him stay the course.

You might also want to set up a date night and sit down to talk about how this might strain your marriage, and make a pact about how you're going to handle the conflict, how he is going to handle it. These court actions can summon a tempest and you want a plan for how you're not going to let it divide or split you -- I swear drama triangles are contagious.

And of course, you have us   We're here for you too.

[Panda39]

Hi Kells,

When mom home schooled in the past how did the kids do? Did they do their schoolwork?  Were they able to keep up with their peers in the classroom? What is her training as a teacher?

My SO's uBPDxw early in their separation when she had majority custody, took their oldest daughter out of her first year of High School against the advice of the school counselor, school principal, and my SO.  The ex was going to home school her on an "on-line" School.

First they "didn't receive the laptop from the school" (my SO offered his), then the laptop didn't work (my SO offered to get it fixed), then they got the laptop but "the cord to the laptop didn't work" (my SO offered to replace it), then the internet at uBPDmom's house didn't work (my SO offered to have daughter come to his house)... .this stuff went on and on... .daughter doing nothing to the point where uBPDmom's sister invited daughter to her house to do her school work. The "on-line" school would not help, D15 wasn't working, and BPDmom didn't care.  It got to the point where my SO hoped his daughter would be found truant just to force her into school. My SO's daughter did nothing at all and received a 0.0 grade point average that set her way back by the time she graduated.

When the divorce hearing finally came around all of this was presented in court and my SO was given education decision making.  He and his ex were unable to co-parent and use a parallel parenting style like david mentioned.

It's very unfortunate that my SO's daughter lost her first year of high school but it did give my SO a boatload of evidence to present at the divorce hearing.  That ultimately got her back on the right track.

Always keep the "best interest of the kids" in mind.  Is her home schooling the kids in their best interest?  Why or why not?

Panda39

[david]

When you make a boundary you should expect an extinction burst. I view them as temper tantrums since my ex is not getting what she wants. She will lash out in ways that don't make sense.

Ex used to use the kids to try to get to me. I realized that and stopped reacting when she did these kinds of things. She escalated a bit and when she saw no reaction she stopped. She wanted the reaction. The kids, to her, were a means to an end.

Navigating through her storms with steady as she goes worked the best. I figured out what was important to me for our kids and followed that course of action.

I still get some outbursts from her but nowhere near the amount or intensity like before. That took several years.

[Panda39]

When you make a boundary you should expect an extinction burst. I view them as temper tantrums since my ex is not getting what she wants. She will lash out in ways that don't make sense.

Ex used to use the kids to try to get to me. I realized that and stopped reacting when she did these kinds of things. She escalated a bit and when she saw no reaction she stopped. She wanted the reaction. The kids, to her, were a means to an end.

Navigating through her storms with steady as she goes worked the best. I figured out what was important to me for our kids and followed that course of action.

I still get some outbursts from her but nowhere near the amount or intensity like before. That took several years.

Yep, I'd describe my SO's entire separation (2 years) like a fireworks finale one extinction burst on top of the last simply because of the nature of going through a divorce. One issue after another, one conflict after another... .one extinction burst after another.  Any conflict or any boundary would set her off.  Once the divorce was final this died down for us as well.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

This is why you need a overall strategy (more secure parenting overall) and probably lesser strategies for the details of school, parenting schedule, holidays, vacations, etc.

For example, mother probably claims kids didn't want to see dad or whatever, she will think that's a good strategy for her.  (Let her say it... .)  Courts like counseling so ask for that, so a counselor can find out why and help the children with both parents.  That way you use her obstructive claim, what she thinks is a sure fire way to keep you sidelined, to your advantage.  That's what strategy is like.

Early in my case my ex's lawyer was trying to paint a picture of me as big bad dad.  Fortunately I responded well and he dropped his line of attack.

Also, let me relate something that happened with me so you won't be caught off guard by trick questions and tripped up by your normal feelings which can easily be used against you.  When my then-separated spouse and I were in court with allegations against each other, her lawyer asked me, ":)o you want her back?"  I was aware that he had just asked me my weight compared to hers, alluding that a weight difference ought to make her fearful of me, I knew he was angling to paint me as a controller who wanted his target back under his control.  So I answered, "Not the way she is."

You will find many nuggets of wisdom here.  Sadly, sometimes we didn't think of them until afterward when our golden opportunity was past.  Here is one possible response to be prepared to use in case your spouse ever alleges she's fearful of you because you're much larger than she is... . 

... .  in court during mutual protection cases, when I testified about her actions and her threats, her attorney asked me if I weighed more than her (of course) wanted to divorce (of course not) then he said I must want to control her.  Huh?  How could he ever say that of me?  I just said no.  I should have replied (remember this, guys, in your own testimonies and cross-examinations) our child is smaller than both of us, should our child fear us because we're bigger?  Anyway, he then asked if I wanted her back home that night, I guess still pursuing that 'controlling husband' strategy.  Fortunately, I said, No, not the way she is.

If she is unwilling to seek counseling or therapy then you have to make your decisions based on that refusal... . 

Understand that few if any of the professionals will try to get her to change.  Most deal with people as they are.  So you have to do likewise.  Don't expect her to improve, deal with what IS.  If she is not seen as abusive - and few are since most of their poor adult behaviors are either directed at the spouse and mostly ignored or the poor parenting behaviors are not seen as rising to the level of being 'actionable' - then you need to strategize well to get and keep every advantage in parenting that you can.

Do try to choose an experienced lawyer, not just one who works well filing forms - most can do that - but especially one who can handle court and get results.  Problem solving.  Proactive.  Resourceful.  Able to go out and reach for more than the typical court outcomes.

[david]

I have found that using ex's complaints/objections/ etc in court to your advantage works the best. Years ago I had to pick our boys up at her place during the school year. Problem was that she refused to let me see their school work/school bags/ anything to do with school.

Ex filed her second protection order against me. I had my atty write a modification to our existing order that I pick the boys up at school instead of her place. The judge liked that idea since it would remove me from ex's proximity. Solved her petition of me abusing her since I wouldn't be anywhere near her. I looked at ex when my atty brought it up and she did not look happy about it. However, since the judge thought it was a great idea she agreed. I made sure it was signed in court that day by both parents and the judge.

The first time I went to pick the boys up at school I found out that ex already had called the school and told them I was not permitted to pick the boys up without her permission. I knew this bothered ex and I had a copy of the order with me to give to the school.

During equitable distribution ex claimed I had stolen everything from our house and had a valuation of 1.2 million dollars. That figure was completely ridiculous.

I agreed with her evaluation since I had numerous photos from the internet of the same objects she claimed I stole in her apartment. I countered saying she could keep all the things and just give me my half in cash. We settled quickly after her atty was given some of the evidence.

[scraps66]

I would have held out for the $600k in cash!

[ForeverDad]

During equitable distribution ex claimed I had stolen everything from our house and had a valuation of 1.2 million dollars. That figure was completely ridiculous.

I agreed with her evaluation since I had numerous photos from the internet of the same objects she claimed I stole in her apartment. I countered saying she could keep all the things and just give me my half in cash. We settled quickly after her atty was given some of the evidence.

I would have held out for the $600k in cash!

Ah, if only we could.  Courts could care less whether someone is lying.  It's up to the other party to contest it and then in most cases it's just set aside and we have to move on.  Not fair but the reality.  However, when we get a gift horse we don't let it get away.  When my ex in testimony said she wanted son during my declared mid-winter vacation so she could observe Kwanzaa even though she wasn't of Jewish descent, my lawyer jumped on it and repeatedly asked her to describe Jewish Kwanzaa.  Clearly she didn't anything about it, she mentioned candles which the real Jewish holiday and Kwanzaa both use.  The magistrate's decision stated her testimony was "not credible" then, subdued courtspeak for "Liar!"  That was the first time noted by the court and it was after some 4 years in and out of court with all sorts of allegations from her.  They totally ignored her repeated but unsubstantiated child abuse allegations against me, not one word of admonition or consequence.  (Legally they didn't want to discourage her from making future allegations which, for all they knew, might finally be true.)  So sad, they picked out the gnat of little consequence and swallowed the camel.