Amnesty gone wrong... a true example

[formflier]

There are a couple threads out there on forgiveness and one on the concept of amnesty (telling it all in a safe place).

The military usually has "amnesty boxes" close to the ship or the airplane going back home.  The thought is... .that it is your chance to put contraband in there... .and not be held accountable. 

I've seen it all in there... .heard of it all in there... .drugs... .explosives... .living creatures that died... .guns... .porn... .

I'm not aware of anyone ever getting in trouble with what was put in the box... .most of the times... .stuff is put in there anonymously.

The concept of offering a person amnesty if they fess up to you the stuff they have done... .skps the anonymity

Whatever they tell you... .you will know... .and they will know.

Will you be able to keep your word... that you won't hold it against them? 

What if they reveal something you feel morally required to do something about... .?  Do you go with your morals... .or do you support your promise to them that they have "amnesty"

The ultimate problem is that you are promising to forgive something you don't know if you can forgive

True story about amnesty.

Two friends of mine (fellow service members)... .I am closer to the guy... .but know them both well... .finally started dating and then got engaged. 

All the people that knew them were rooting for them... .  At this point in life they were both late 30s... .early 40s.  Both had many prior relationships... .and had lots of baggage. 

She started to get cold feet... .what it seems she was really nervous about was would he accept the "real" her... .if he "really" knew her.

The decided they would have amnesty (I'm 99% sure they called it that... ) and tell each other everything... .come clean.

He said it all... .she claimed she said it all... .and lots of big stuff come out.

Big stuff came out on both sides... .they seemed to draw closer.

A few weeks later... .she revealed more.  He was devastated because she "lied" to him about revealing "everything".


He really did trust her enough to reveal it all.  She didn't.

He posed the question... ."how do I know this is everything... .since I have been told this before... "

Well... .the relationship quickly failed.

They both went into the "amnesty" idea thinking it would be great... .both of them now think it was a horrible idea. 

There was not a counselor involved.

So... .big questions to ask.

Can you really deal with... .forgive... .ANYTHING... that your partner may tell you?

What happens if your partner claims to have told all... .and then in the future you find out this was not the case.

When Pandora's box is opened... .it doesn't get shut... .

Thoughts?

FF

[patientandclear]

FF: I can think of another way to do amnesty.  It involves NOT disclosing all, but, drawing a line between the past and the future, and saying "things happened before when we didn't fully understand each other or hadn't grown in the ways we have now.  We can't change the past.  We can, however, make and keep commitments going forward.  Let's reach agreement on what we need going forward, make commitments, and keep those."

As applied to the other amnesty thread on the board right now, this would mean not doing a deep probe into what happened and why, but rather, providing a chance for the relationship to get aligned NOW with the partner's expectations and needs, with a clear understanding that if it can't or doesn't, that will mean it's not going to work. Less focus on what occurred to date.  More focus on getting it lined up if possible now.

That IS at odds with the popular thought that the past is the best predictor of the future, etc., but sometimes with clear expectations and forgiveness, incentives can be powerful enough to change behavior.

[formflier]

That IS at odds with the popular thought that the past is the best predictor of the future, etc., but sometimes with clear expectations and forgiveness, incentives can be powerful enough to change behavior.

Correct... .but it can work.  And this example has a much higher chance of success... .IMO... .than wide open amnesty.

The key would be has there been a turning point for the person that is trying to change behavior.  Have they "seen the light".

Many times... .one party has a new understanding... .and pushes it on the other party. 

Most failures happen when the other party goes along with the "new vision"... .without understanding it... .and without having a turning point experience of their own.

It can be very frustrating to "be in a new place"... .and be waiting for your partner to "catch up".


Lots of grace... .understanding and forgiveness required to make that work... .on both sides.

FF

[Daniell85]

My boyfriend keeps wanting this amnesty: all he has done gets put into the past, he never hears about it again and let's move forward.

I am not in the same place. He did a lot of damaging things, I am not healed, and he has contempt towards me for it. Additionally, he is not in the head/emotional space to have had some epiphany. So any moving forward we have done, included the carrying forward of the same lying types of behaviors and a "catch me if you can!" mentality.

I am doubtful that will ever change.

[patientandclear]

FF and Daniell, I think those are really important observations about when drawing that line btwn past and future and giving a "clean slate" makes sense, and when it is just an invitation to further mistreatment. It helps me to understand why it has not felt right in my case to simply start again without a clear understanding by my BPD person of what wasn't working for me the first time through, and without a commitment from him that things will be different.

[formflier]

 and without a commitment from him that things will be different.

And if there is "denial" that the past needs to be changed... .or didn't work for one party... .tough stuff. Somehow there needs to be a balance between an in depth probe into the past and a white wash of the past. That is where I think a trained counselor who is looking out for the good of the r/s has a chance. No guarantee.

[unicorn2014]

FF: I can think of another way to do amnesty.  It involves NOT disclosing all, but, drawing a line between the past and the future, and saying "things happened before when we didn't fully understand each other or hadn't grown in the ways we have now.  We can't change the past.  We can, however, make and keep commitments going forward.  Let's reach agreement on what we need going forward, make commitments, and keep those."

As applied to the other amnesty thread on the board right now, this would mean not doing a deep probe into what happened and why, but rather, providing a chance for the relationship to get aligned NOW with the partner's expectations and needs, with a clear understanding that if it can't or doesn't, that will mean it's not going to work. Less focus on what occurred to date.  More focus on getting it lined up if possible now.

That IS at odds with the popular thought that the past is the best predictor of the future, etc., but sometimes with clear expectations and forgiveness, incentives can be powerful enough to change behavior.

Since that the other thread is mine, that's not what was proposed, and the amnesty idea is off the table anyways.

[unicorn2014]

My boyfriend keeps wanting this amnesty: all he has done gets put into the past, he never hears about it again and let's move forward.

I am not in the same place. He did a lot of damaging things, I am not healed, and he has contempt towards me for it. Additionally, he is not in the head/emotional space to have had some epiphany. So any moving forward we have done, included the carrying forward of the same lying types of behaviors and a "catch me if you can!" mentality.

I am doubtful that will ever change.

I think if a wBPD proposed an amnesty its an automatic no. That's the something else entirely. That's them getting to do whatever they want and get away with it. That's them punishing you for having feelings about what they did to you.

[Daniell85]

I can't make him stop. All I feel is that I can't be there with him since he does this stuff. Feel pretty sad

[Notwendy]

I think this is a great thread. One difference between the amnesty- put your contraband in the box, come clean with your taxes, is that there isn't an emotional relationship to repair. The act of amnesty is the repair- the army wants the contraband gone, the IRS wants the money. Love, trust, human forgiveness, is not in the picture in these situations and that is more complicated.

Just confessing to another person doesn't clear the feelings. This doesn't mean forgiveness is impossible, but it may take some work- counseling and time.

I agree that amnesty would be troublesome in a relationship with someone with BPD. I think apologies - true ones- are very difficult for people with BPD because they require introspection and vulnerability. Also, the tendency to project and re-write history, to me would lead to a "hit and run" sort of amnesty- "OK I did this, now we can pretend it didn't happen"- and the person feeling relieved while their SO is thinking   yikes.

The other concern is the tendency to feel as if things are even if the other person confesses- so the confession isn't coming from a sense of wanting to repent but an "hey we are even!" you did something bad too, so I'm not so bad" interaction.

A true apology can lead to emotional healing, but not this.

[waverider]

Amnesty box is impersonal and victimless.

Promising to tell all is exposing feelings to risk. No one can completely control their feelings, despite best intentions. It is a test and it may fail, but not taking the test may mean delatying the failure to a later date when there more at stake.

I dont think anyone should be held accountable to expose "everything" about themselves, especially in one hit. It should be limited to what they are prepared to share "at that time' with the promise of being received with an open mind.

There are no free passes in life. Unfortunately I think many pwBPD will see it as such an opportunity. Just like hitting the restart button and wiping the past clean rather than building on it.

[formflier]

  Just like hitting the restart button and wiping the past clean rather than building on it.

Building on the past is the key.

The people in my story were not "confessing" things to each other that they had done "to" each other.  It was personal stuff that they had been involved in, things that they weren't proud of, things that were in their past that was affecting the present.

I used to go a bit overboard want to "understand" the past in order to avoid making the same mistake in the future.  "Learn from your mistakes".  My wife (and many pwBPD) "hear" blame when talking about the past, when no blame is present.

Tough to work around.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Daniell, I'll see if I can start another thread to address your boyfriend's behavior. All I can say is you're not committed to him, that is, he hasn't asked you to marry him. If he's not in treatment, its not going to get better. .

[Notwendy]

How far should one go about discussing the past before we met people?

I don't think we have to discuss everything. Some things are personal- involving another person. Some relationships were long ago, and over a long time ago.

I do think that events that impact us or our partners in a major way should be discussed such as marriages, children, criminal history, some medical issues, debt. Maybe not on the first date, but I think it would be deceptive to hide another family, or a jail term. I also think how the person handled the circumstances, how they grew and evolved is a consideration. Someone who did a petty crime as a teen may become a responsible adult. A serial criminal- not likely. Divorced once, or 8 times... .

[unicorn2014]

Notwendy, you bring up an interesting point. My fiancé disclosed too much in the beginning and perhaps I did too. He told me about he was sexually abused a child before we even met in person. That still bothers me to this day. He also told me about the way he mistreated others when he was a teenager before we met in person. He told me about he mistreated his wife the first time he married her.  He told me a lot before we met in person that I feel was inappropriate. He feels he needed to have told me that stuff so I could get to know him. I think he totally violated my boundaries by revealing all that information upfront. To be fair to him I probably didn't have good boundaries either when I first met him so we made a mess of our relationship early on.

[Notwendy]

I think it is a touchy situation as to how much to disclose and when. I have read that disclosing too much is a sign of poor boundaries, but withholding is also dishonest.

I think something like childhood sexual abuse is a topic that can impact relationships, but when to disclose it would not be easy to decide. It's a lot of sensitive information.

From what I have read about this, I think the general consensus is not to reveal everything on the first date ( as one doesn't really know where the relationship is going) but if the relationship is progressing to disclose important information before the relationship gets very emotionally involved.

Many of us have poor boundaries, which makes it harder to notice or respond to "red flags" early on in relationships.

[waverider]

Notwendy, you bring up an interesting point. My fiancé disclosed too much in the beginning and perhaps I did too. He told me about he was sexually abused a child before we even met in person. That still bothers me to this day. He also told me about the way he mistreated others when he was a teenager before we met in person. He told me about he mistreated his wife the first time he married her.  He told me a lot before we met in person that I feel was inappropriate. He feels he needed to have told me that stuff so I could get to know him. I think he totally violated my boundaries by revealing all that information upfront. To be fair to him I probably didn't have good boundaries either when I first met him so we made a mess of our relationship early on.

I think a lot of it is selling the victim excuse to appeal to the rescuer in you, and also selling how much he is a changed man, so will feel like you are the lucky one. Thrown in with a little testing your boundaries,or lack of, to see how 'empathetic" you can be.

Its a subconcious sales pitch. hearing about the history of bullying and how much better (born again) they are now is often on the table pretty quick

[unicorn2014]

Notwendy, in my situation there was no first date, we got to know each other online first, and this is where he disclosed it. Now I find it ironic that my fiancé felt it appropriate to disclose his sexual abuse to me but not his marital status. The more learn about my r/s, the angrier I get. I know for a fact neither one of us had good boundaries when we met. We were two sick people or else the r/s would've never happened in the first place. I believe that a healthy person would not get in a r/s with a BPD or npd. I learned that from the stop care taking the borderline book. I was definitely a care taker when I met my fiancé and I am definitely not one now. Feel free to split off this post or tell me to start another subject as I know I've gone off topic now.

[unicorn2014]

Yes wave rider I agree and the ironic thing is my fiancé kept telling me he wasn't going to rescue me when he met me, he kept putting himself in a superior position to me. This topic is making me mad. Like I said to not Wendy feel free to split it off as I know I've gone off topic now. I just hope I can cool down before morning because I'm suppose to talk to my fiancé about his lack of divorce filing and I'm really pissed off now. I went to bed numb and woke up in the middle of the night feeling angry as heck. I'm going to the doctor to talk about sleep medication today for my PTSD so I am practicing good self care. I know that is off topic too. I got PTSD from my first marriage and it seems my r/s with my fiancé (and my father) is triggering it. I need to start posting on the coping board too. This whole situation is stirring up a lot of family dynamics. I know this subject was a spin off from my amnesty thread and I'm not sure what direction I'm taking it in, but it feels off topic to me. 

[Cole]

With their inability to let go of past hurts, I think amnesty with a pwBPD is a really bad idea. They have enough difficulty letting go of what they already know. 

My wife still gets mad at me to this day because I did not ask her out in high school. Rather illogical, as we lived in separate states and did not meet until 13 years after we graduated. Giving a pwBPD more things over which to irrationally obsess seems like a bad idea to me.

[unicorn2014]

Cole, if I understand correctly, I think we were talking about giving the person wBPD amnesty. Form flier, please correct me if I'm wrong. Just for the record, I tried giving my pwBPD amnesty but he said he had nothing to disclose. So there's not really much I can do with that. I don't believe him, but that's another story.