How would my legal case look in Washington state?

[Aaron1979]

I have 2 people that would testify that my wife lied to them on important matters (One a pastor and one a psychologist).  I have a journal that documented that my wife threw things at me in front of the kids, Told my kids that Daddy didn't want them home, Told my son that Daddy doesn't want me anymore, blaming and tearing me down in front of the kids, crazy behavior in front of the kids.  Also my Son will copy Mommy and tell me what I did wrong (My wife tries to stop that).

Also 911 has calls from me because she said that she may not stay alive while I was at work and one when she tried to hyperventilate while I told her I was going to church with the kids.  I know it's hard to overcome the woman should get custody thing.  I'm wondering if I should report some of these past behaviors to the police and CPS?

 

[Deb]

Probably depends on what part of the state you are in. A big metro area could be good for you. My BIL won full custody of my niece, with my dBPD sister only getting 12 hours on Saturdays. We live near Seattle. Not in King County, but near enough that he had a great attorney (who no longer is in practice) from Seattle. My sister had lied to the GAL, been in the mental ward, tried to run over my BIL while kidnapping their child and much more. The GAL who was initially skeptical, came around full force and said my sister was dangerous to her child. The judge even saw through most of her lies and parental alienation tries. So, I guess it depends on where you are and if you have a good lawyer.

[Aaron1979]

I forgot to say that I'm the one who makes the money and has the medical insurance.  I have other coworkers that would testify that I'm an honest person.

[livednlearned]

Hi Aaron1979,

I'm so sorry you've had to go through this kind of abuse. I read in your other post that you're meeting with a lawyer on Tuesday. That's good, and it will help you put together a strategy and begin preparations. It's important to go into that consultation with a list of questions you need answered, and a list of behaviors and evidence that can help support your case.

You want to know if the lawyer understands high-conflict divorces, and has experience with BPD behaviors. In many family courts, the smoking gun is not necessarily the diagnosis, it's the pattern of behaviors that will help you get custody. I believe in Washington state, the default custody is 50/50. You'll be given the option to file for primary physical custody -- if you talk to a lawyer who tells you to not do this, chances are it's someone who does not have experience with BPD. Some lawyers counsel their clients based on what they are likely to get from a judge. Your circumstance is different. You have a goal (primary custody) and need the lawyer to help you develop a strategy to obtain that goal. Also, make sure you understand how your state treats physical custody, legal custody, and visitation. These tend to get carved up in different ways depending on the state. Some states grant joint legal custody, but then add a tie-breaker decision-making clause where one parent gets to be the decider. Some states also have primary parent for residential purposes which helps guarantee that the kids stay in your school district.

Third-party testimony about your wife lying is probably not what counts. What matters more is her pattern of behavior that impacts the kids. Family courts see high-conflict cases all the time with "he said, she said" and much of that will be dismissed. What you need is documented evidence that she is not stable. The hospitalization, the 911 calls, the psychologist who recommends the kids will be better off with you -- this is the stuff that really counts.

You may want a psychiatric evaluation -- sometimes, courts will order both parents to undergo this, altho in my case my ex's behavior was so extreme that they only asked him. Since your wife has a prior condition, it may be enough to file a motion seeking a psych eval. Sometimes psych evals go with custody evaluations. If that's the case, be sure to ask for a MMPI-2, which is considered an objective psych. Keep in mind, though, that she may not meet the criteria for a BPD diagnosis. And if she does, you will have to get a forensic psychologist to testify about the negative effects of BPD on the well-being and development of her minor children.

Another caution -- many lawyers will try to broker a temporary agreement. Be forewarned that these agreements tend to become permanent. Judges figure if you could live with it for a short time, you can live with it for the long term. And judges also like keeping things status quo because they believe it's best to not disrupt the kids' routine.

Last: ask your L about the safest way to serve your wife. My L put the responsibility on me -- she told me it was best for my case to stay in the home, and stay with S14. However, if it came down to safety, I was told to leave immediately and she would pick up the pieces. So, that means if you serve your wife and she goes ballistic, remove the kids from the home and stay in a hotel. Find out if you live in a one-party consent state. If so, that means you can record your wife without her permission. And make sure you have a device that is easy to start recording from your pocket or somewhere discreet. Make sure it's charged. Find out too if you live in a dual arrest state. If you do, that means the police by law must arrest both parties, regardless of who called. You'll need to know someone who can take care of the kids. You may also live in a state where, if you do call, and she is found to be the aggressor, you MUST prosecute. I believe WA is one of those states, so be prepared to follow through.

There is no way to painlessly rip off the band-aid. However, you can (and should) have plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D and plan E. The key to getting custody is to be at least one very carefully planned step ahead.

You may need some encouragement, so here's mine: I am female, but my ex is an attorney, which created the same kind of legal abuse than many BPD mothers use in order to work the system. And I ended up with full physical custody, full legal custody, and after a period of years, was able to terminate visitation.

Have a very clear goal in your mind and learn how the system works so you can work things to your advantage. Your wife is predictable in herr unpredictable ways, and that is going to help you. Also, you're a dad who cares about your kids, and sad as it is, that is not exactly the story that gets told in many family courts. So you'll stand out.

Focus on what is best for the kids, and feel bad about your wife's condition, while also being certain that she is not well enough to meet the minimum criteria to be a functioning, safe, stable parent.

We have a lot of members here who have been through this, and are here for you. Ask lots of questions and take a big deep breath. There is nothing as priceless as peer support when you're going through something this hairy.

Also, read Splitting by Bill Eddy if you haven't already. And anything on our Lessons board that looks like it might help you. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239547.0



LnL

[Aaron1979]

Should I then notify the police and/or CPS that she threw things at me a few months ago and just 3 weeks ago told my son ":)addy's leaving me?"  In other words, should I notify them of the things that happened previously? 

[PinkieV]

Hi Aaron,

My DH ended up with full custody after starting with emergency custody when his BPDew went to jail for a year. I found this site in the middle of everything. The case was in Pierce County. Message me if you would like our lawyer's info. He started out a little slow, but I gave him a lot of input and strategy from the site and he did a great job.

[livednlearned]

I think if you call CPS on an old charge, it won't carry as much weight. Also, it could look to family court like you're trying to make a case. And abuse between adults is not necessarily something that CPS will act on. It's not good, but it may also not meet the threshold for what constitutes abuse toward a child in your state.

It's a good idea to check how CPS works where you live -- for example, in some states, it's perfectly ok for a parent to beat a child with a belt. And some states will handle it by doing an eval and then deciding that both parents need parenting classes. Also, with CPS, you don't know who is going to show up at your house. So you end up bringing in a third-party witness that writes a report that blows up in your face.

It sounds like a better strategy is a custody evaluation as part of the divorce process. This will involve a lengthy (and expensive) interview process where you can discuss your wife's behavior, both past and present. If you do your homework, and stay on top of how things work, you may be able to choose the CE. Or select 3 that are ethical and competent, and then allow your wife to choose from those three (to avoid bias).

Talk to a lawyer and ask these questions. From what you're describing, it doesn't sound like calling CPS is a safe bet. Better to go with a custody evaluator if you're trying to bring in a third-party professional. And if the abuse reaches a level that is actionable for CPS, then make sure you know how they deal with these kinds of incidents.

[ForeverDad]

My then-spouse started actively disparaging me to my son in the months before our separation and divorce.  For example, "Papi no te quiere pero yo te quiero!" = "Your daddy doesn't love you but I do!"  No officials cared.  She got temp custody and kept it for the entire divorce process.  CE noted she could not share 'her' child but I could.  I don't recall the report digging much into the disparaging.  When we had equal time in Shared Parenting she continued obstructing and disparaging.  When I got custody she continued disparaging.  Why do I use that word 'disparaging'?  Because that's the word the last order (granting me majority time during the school year) contained over and over nearly two years ago.  Yes, it took some 8 years for the court to highlight that her 'disparaging' still hadn't stopped.

Very often improvements in court orders are baby steps, courts are typically reluctant to make drastic changes.  Courts know there is likely to be conflict and heightened emotions during divorce but they also expect that reasonably normal parents will Let Go the animosity, if not during the divorce, then shortly thereafter.  I have concluded that's why they don't address all issues from the start.  They try to avoid parenting the parents.

[Aaron1979]

Well, I got my answer from the lawyer though this lawyer seemed more interested in helping my wife than me.  The lawyer didn't even ask if I wanted her to take the case or not!  If she's not interested in taking the case than I certainly am not going to ask her to do so.  The lawyer wasn't really interested in any questions I had .  She just went on and on about the legal process and how I'm in such a bad position for the courts to do anything even though she didn't ask me what I had.

Basically I was told that I need to go to a therapist (I stated that I already had one) and move closer to my family.  Then I need to force my wife to get a job.  I also am required to give my wife a car and a place to live no matter what (Immigration law states that I owe a certain amount but nothing I know says I have to do other things within family law).

This sounded fishy so I went to the courthouse the next day and got the Washington state dissolution packet and had the courthouse assist me in filling it out (I still need a bit more to finish).  By this time my wife found that money went to the courthouse and guessed what was happening.  She called me twice so I figured I should go home. 

I expected that when I got home that she would freak out on me but that wasn't the case. 

She asked me why I did that and I said because she was no longer going to counseling and other signs pointed to me not seeing any hope of getting better.  She pointed out that she hasn't freaked out in a few weeks (Doing things like running outside screaming) and that the medicine she was taking was helping her and was getting better (She had taken it 3 months previously. Sertraline is the name of the medicine).

I let her know there that she may have BPD and told her to research it (She didn't know about it before).  She checked it out and agreed that looks like her problem.   She found out that she needed to see a specialist and I called the therapist that she quit going to refer her to a specialist.  I'm not sure what to make of this.

Am I falling for another manipulation or is she really serious about getting better? 

 

[ForeverDad]

We generally advise people not to mention BPD to the likely sufferer, it can trigger huge denials and overreactions.  But she knows now, nothing to be done about it now and maybe it will be okay.  Just remember not to push too much on the label thing, family court often does not seek out a diagnosis if there isn't one already, they focus on the behaviors and patterns.

You saw only one lawyer and didn't seem too helpful.  (Or was she advising you of what you were up against?  And that you needed to prepare yourself to start divorce in a better position than you have now?)  Always get a few confidential consultations.  The key word is confidential.  (If the marriage is recovering and succeeding then sharing information is crucial.  However, once you seriously think the marriage is failing then you have a right to keep some sensitive things confidential.)  See what warnings, advice and strategies they have.  Surely you will find a lawyer more helpful.

As for her future behaviors, it is typical for there to be roller coaster swings of moods and actions.  Right now she is more agreeable.  What will you do if it doesn't last?  How many cycles of up and down, push then pull behaviors have you experienced?  Now that you and she have learned about BPD and other PDs, will that knowledge make a difference for the better?*  Should you give her one more chance?  How many more cycles will you stick around for?

* Don't think that her therapist was so clueless not to have recognized behaviors reminiscent of Personality Disorders.  Many haven't the experience to handle the acting-out PDs and those who do often won't tell the patient what they're working on because the label can trigger denial, rejection and overreactions.  (Also, in years past insurance wouldn't pay for BPD therapy.)

[Aaron1979]

If she attacks (emotional abuse or the like) me or the kids I have the papers ready and I will file letting a good lawyer pick up the pieces.  If she physically attack me drawing blood or physically attacks the kids I will call 911.

I will not allow her to continue harming me or the kids indefinitely.

I will get multiple lawyer consultations.  In the future I will only get free consultations from lawyers so that she cannot find them and nothing ever happens.

Unfortunately, I am not good at keeping things hidden.  I hate hiding things but I'll try.  I'm a very honest person. 

I don't know what to think really. She quit going to the therapist and I felt like I had to try something.  The lawyer painted a very bleak picture and I almost was able to tell her that it was over on my own and turn in the papers the next day.  However she ended up talking me out of it.  It was a very confusing time and I know I didn't think clearly.  I'm still somewhat confused. 

She's asking me if I'll throw her away if she stops going to the specialist again.  She's saying that she can't stay alive if I throw her away.  This behavior doesn't weaken me anymore like it once did and of course she's worried about me leaving now that she knows I went to a lawyer and courthouse. 

She said that she would sign the papers and go back to Japan but I don't know if that's true or not.


   

       

[GaGrl]

Do your children have passports? Are the passports from your country or Japan, or both?

If they do have passports, you need to get possession of them and secure them. Also birth certificates. You do not want your wife taking the children to Japan.

[livednlearned]

Do your children have passports? Are the passports from your country or Japan, or both?

If they do have passports, you need to get possession of them and secure them. Also birth certificates. You do not want your wife taking the children to Japan.

Really good point!

Japan is not part of the Hague treaty, which means if she took the kids there, you have no recourse through inter-country laws to have them returned. For example, a parent accused of abducting the kids to Canada will be apprehended by RCMP (Canadian police) and the courts will honor whatever custody agreement exists in the U.S., or have the kids sent back to the state where the parents resided to have custody determined there.

Japan did not have that agreement, unless things have changed recently.

[Aaron1979]

They do have passports and my wife is not in possession of them.  One kid has passports from USA and Japan.  The other one only has a USA passport. 

[ForeverDad]

Last I heard, Japan always favors and sides with the native parent.  You would do well to be alert if you suspect she may take the kids to Japan.  While you may not have a way to stop her from getting replacement passports for Japanese 'lost' passports, you can list your children with the US State Department's notification list in case they receive an application.

travel.state.gov/content/childabduction/en/preventing/passport-issuance-alert-program.html

[sanemom]

Good call, Forever Dad!  I had no idea you could do that with the state department!

Those international abductions end up being horrible cases, and it takes years to find them.  I have heard of so many lately that they are found as adults and hate the other parent.

[livednlearned]

You can alert the state department -- from what I remember, though, a case is not considered an abduction unless there is a contested custody file. I never found out how they determine whether a case is open or not, if it's a technical thing.

Also, in my state, if either parent does an amber alert, things go straight to the county prosecutor's office where they look up the file to see where things stand. I think you might find a tangle of bureaucracy when you try to alert the authorities of a possible abduction, so it's best to research this as best you can and never stop asking questions, even if it seems like someone knows what they're talking about. I found that three people would give three different answers.

Aaaaaand... .Not to be too cynical, but I haven't found the local county courts to be fantastic at keeping on top of records. I had a gatekeeping order to prevent my ex from filing frivolous orders (gatekeeping order is something only the judge can ask for) and it didn't work for beans. So even with these so-called safeguards in place, be aware that the system only seems to care as much as you do about the well-being of your kids. I figured the harder I worked, the better the outcome, and didn't stop learning until things were swinging my way.

[suffering_parent]

I think this advice is spot on.   You have to prevent her from taking the kids out of the county.   I have been there it is a real mess.   The best support I found was from

www.missingkids.com/home

They assigned a lawyer to my case who provided details on the type of personalities that commit international kidnappings.   He also provided invaluable information on how often it happens to your specific country and how difficult it will be to get your kids back.   I used all this in court to help gain custody and protect them from being taken in the future.   It should be no surprise that BPD like traits are an almost exact fit to the type of people who commit these crimes.   I would do everything possible to prevent it now.

[Aaron1979]

Thank you everyone for all your great advice.  My plan now is to set up appointments with other lawyers.  I will get my wife to a psychiatrist who could potentially prescribe the best medicine and potentially diagnose her with whatever she has (she has agreed to this).  If I can get a diagnosis that should strengthen my position.  While this is going on, I will watch my wife's behavior carefully.  If she acts out then I have the divorce papers still secured along with the passports.

I found out yesterday that the therapist that she was going to has failed to get my wife to talk.  When my wife found out that I went to the courthouse, she said that she stopped going to the therapist because the therapist was sleepy and cut a session short.  I talked to the therapist and she said that my wife was not talking to her.

My wife also lied to me about a friend telling her that he doesn't want me talking to him about our marriage situation.  I checked that story out with the friend and he assured me it was not the case and my wife was trying to manipulate me into not talking with him about it.

I'll look into what the US government can do.  What I was told is that because my kids were born in America that she cannot take them out without my permission. 

         

[GaGrl]

That is not the case... .if there is a Japanese passport, she can take them out of the country wit h out your permission.

There are some interesting cultural issues at play here... Values are quite different between Eastern and Western societies. Your wife may not be willing to give up the economic advantages she has gained with a Western marriage.

This was very much what my DH experienced with his Ex -she wanted to stay in the U.S. but she was not committed to a Western values-based marriage. I asked at one point how much of their marital problem was cultural and how much was h e r psychological/emotional issues, and he quickly said 50/50.

[ForeverDad]

Don't share this with your spouse, there are some things to keep confidential, but in general we have come to the understanding that meds help to moderate poor behaviors and perceptions but they do not replace therapy.  It is therapy that makes the real difference.  So understand that meds alone are not a solution for BPD, they help but they're not the complete solution.

[livednlearned]

I'll look into what the US government can do.  What I was told is that because my kids were born in America that she cannot take them out without my permission. 

Good idea to double check. I had to have a notarized letter of permission to take my son to Canada, even when I was married. But child abduction to Canada is also a problem because of proximity to the US, so the systems are fairly rigorous.

I'm guessing it would not be hard for your wife to forge a notarized letter if she was really motivated. If she is very disordered, she would not likely think that far ahead -- my ex, even though he was an attorney and highly accomplished, because very impulsive and did not think things through very carefully. I think the stress of divorce and real abandonment dysregulates them further.

Still, I felt much better knowing exactly what might happen, mainly as a way to manage my own stress.

[Aaron1979]

Don't share this with your spouse, there are some things to keep confidential, but in general we have come to the understanding that meds help to moderate poor behaviors and perceptions but they do not replace therapy.  It is therapy that makes the real difference.  So understand that meds alone are not a solution for BPD, they help but they're not the complete solution.

ForeverDad, that is a big help.  I was wondering if a combination of consequences and medication may help her.  The therapist I talked to thinks she doesn't have BPD because she believes that my wife responds to consequences where a BPD wouldn't.  I don't know though.  It seemed like that when I enforced that consequences that my wife only tried different tactics to get what she wanted.

Even now she is willing to manipulate, lie, and control to get what she wants.  I know some of that is from her culture.  However the suicidal behavior definitely isn't. 

The hard thing is that I know that the best thing possible is for the kids to have a healthy natural mother.  If it isn't possible than I should leave.  If it is than I should stay. 

She's stopped her crazy behavior now.  I'm not sure if it's because I let her have what she wants regarding the discontinuing the therapist and church, if she knows I will leave, or if she's really changed her thinking like she's indicated to me.  She says her behavior is her fault and that before she was angry all the time but she says she's happy now and has been that way for the last month. 

Her core hasn't changed as far as I know.  She didn't talk to the therapist but maybe some of what the therapist said got through because my wife believes that she should stay on her medicine forever.

 

 

[Aaron1979]

I just got told by a second lawyer that my case is very weak legally.  My wife would get my kids if it came to court. 

He said that we could do an agreement on custody or she could default (which rarely happens). 

[livednlearned]

Document everything.

Assume that the lawyer you talk to believe that you're guilty.

Build a case for yourself, in case you need it later one, to show that she's the one who has serious issues.

Keep a journal. Read Splitting.

She is going to do something like this again.

[Aaron1979]

Posted by: livednlearned 


Document everything.

Assume that the lawyer you talk to believe that you're guilty.

Build a case for yourself, in case you need it later one, to show that she's the one who has serious issues.

Keep a journal. Read Splitting.

She is going to do something like this again. 

Thank you.  She's agreed to go to a therapist again because she found out I went to a lawyer and to the courthouse.  She didn't agree because she wanted to help herself.  That much is clear from my conversations with her. 

It's interesting that I still seeing little signs.  Last night, she cooked dinner and I took something off her plate at her request.  30 seconds later her chopsticks fell off and she then proceeded to blame me.  I asked her if she saw me knock the chopsticks off and she responded that I was the last one to touch her plate. 

I'm really sorry that this is still going on and I'm still posting about this.  I know there is danger to the kids because of what she may/will do, but I'm frozen.  The only thing I could do is to tell her to go back to her own country and maybe she would as she has indicated previously.  However if she doesn't and tries to fight in court I will lose.   

[ForeverDad]

Frankly, you need to decide what you need to do and what strategies will help you to secure your position as father.

(1) That includes proactively protecting yourself from the worst impacts of false or trumped up allegations.  Too many member arrive here totally unprepared to protect themselves from allegations.  Yes, they're typically total lies or at least vast exaggerations but courts generally will only go so far as to passively call them 'unsubstantiated'.  Until the next allegations.  And usually there are more.

(2) Also, you need to be and stay an involved father.  Too often the courts are more than willing to relegate fathers to alternate weekend fathers and open their wallets.

As for her returning to her country, that is her choice, you won't stop her (you don't want to appear a controller).  However, the children stay here.

[Aaron1979]

Posted by: ForeverDad 


Frankly, you need to decide what you need to do and what strategies will help you to secure your position as father.

(1) That includes proactively protecting yourself from the worst impacts of false or trumped up allegations.  Too many member arrive here totally unprepared to protect themselves from allegations.  Yes, they're typically total lies or at least vast exaggerations but courts generally will only go so far as to passively call them 'unsubstantiated'.  Until the next allegations.  And usually there are more.

My state is one of those states that require that I declare she is being tape recorded before I can admit recordings to the court.  I'm journaling what's been going on for the last few months.  I know that it's not enough though.  I am sure that my wife would not act out if she knew she was being tape recorded.  Are there other ways to protect myself?               

(2) Also, you need to be and stay an involved father.  Too often the courts are more than willing to relegate fathers to alternate weekend fathers and open their wallets.

I have to work 5 days a week.  She refuses to work and I can't force her do that.  When I'm at home for my two days off I'm always with the kids and when my wife goes shopping and wants to take the kids, I go with them.  I play with my kids and don't ignore them purposefully.  Is there anything else I can do? 

As for her returning to her country, that is her choice, you won't stop her (you don't want to appear a controller).  However, the children stay here.

Agreed.

I have no problem calling the police or CPS if she does anything harmful now.  Before I didn't have the strength to do that.