A bad turn, continued

[kells76]

Already posted a bit about last weekend on Legal; but the questions I have coming out of that situation are tending more toward the parenting side, so here they are.

Brief background: So SD9 gave DH her letter saying What kind of dad hires a lawyer against his own kids, nothing was stopping me from seeing you but maybe now I won't see you, etc. She didn't want to talk to him about it last weekend, and said she didn't feel good and wanted to go home. DH said he heard her and took her back to Moms. We were all at SD7's activity the next morning; SD9 still didn't want to spend the day with DH -- said that she wanted to help with an event at the place where she has an activity, and that the younger kids there "were depending on her to be there". First we'd heard of it. Anyway, DH didn't push the issue.

Feedback from you guys on Legal is that while it's understandable that DH did what he did, it's not a good idea. And this is where it gets sticky, because while essentially DH and I agree with that and each other, he thinks what he should do is keep letting it be up to SD9, because he told me that he told her he isn't going to force her to do anything in that regard. I think that was a bad move, but at the same time, I get where he's coming from.

Now I'm not looking for people to just say "Yeah, you're right, he's wrong", because that doesn't problem-solve anything. I think what would be helpful for us is getting some solid walk-throughs of and concrete suggestions for the scenarios we're afraid of -- like, DH goes to pick the kids up, and SD9 says in front of Mom that SD9 wants to stay home, and Mom says Well it's up to DH (one of those moves... .   )

DH’s biggest sticking point here is that he feels like, after 4 years of the kids getting the message that it’s up to them when they spend time with him, he can’t just be the only parent suddenly going 0-60 and saying, Well, now it isn’t up to you. I think he feels like that’d entrench especially SD9 in not wanting to spend time with him. I get that, I do, and I also think DH has a part in this, because it’s like, you can’t want to have even this minimum PP enforced but not do your part to abide by it! But I also get that it’s a double bind that Mom has set up.

I guess there are a few things going on here, and please, again, it’s not about who’s right, it’s really that both of us need a lot of help dealing with probable scenarios for pickup this weekend. I’ll try to post some specific scenarios and ask for your help in walkthroughs a bit later today.

[kells76]

Also, saw counselor the other day, and I'll write a bit about that on Legal soon. But parenting-wise, he is on board with the fact that it's time for DH to counter the misinformation instead of trying to keep the kids out of it by not saying anything.

[kells76]

Ok, so, briefly, here are some scenarios where we could use help talking through step/outcomes:

1. DH goes to pick up kids, just Mom answers the door and says Sorry, SD9 doesn't feel good and wants to stay here today.

2. DH goes to pick up kids, SD9 answers door (with Mom behind her) and says I don't feel good, I want to stay here.

I don't think DH has yet used the "Well, Mom & I agreed together that you'd spend time with me today" line. I worry that Mom is sophisticated enough that she wouldn't outright deny it, but would say something like "Yes, but (reason why today is different)".

I also worry that Mom will pull the "It's fine with me whatever you do, SD9, but it's up to your dad whether he wants you to go with him" move. Normally that's healthy but to pull that after years of the kids hearing it's their choice instantly makes DH the bad guy, even though the words Mom uses sound good.

Those are what I/we could use feedback on... .How/if to start enforcing that parents make those decisions, not kids, and -- for DH -- how to do it in a way that isn't a sudden shock to the kids, if possible.

[PinkieV]

I apologize, I don't know in your case, but does your DH have a custody order?  If so, he could let BM know in advance (through e-mail or text) that he's going to start following that to a T - he could say per his lawyer, per a counselor, whatever.  Then the next time he goes to pick up, he can say just that to her and your SD.  If BM counters with, "she doesn't want to go" he can reiterate that he's following the order.  If BM says "SD doesn't feel well" he can answer that he'll make sure to take extra good care of her, and he's following the order.  The trick is to make the order the "bad guy" instead of him, at least to SD.  Kids have a lot of people making rules for them - parents, teachers, coaches - so they can understand on that level.  He can shrug his shoulders and say "we have to follow what the court says, they made the rules".  Just my two cents! 

[david]

My ex did similar things in the beginning and I used what PinkieV said. I told them that the judge made a court order and that mom and I have to follow the order.

Another thought, if you go to court, no matter who initiates it, and there is a pattern that SD9 gets to make the calls and always chooses to go to her moms than the judge will probably follow what DH has already been agreeing to. DH, by his actions, has indicated that SD9 with her mom is fine and the time spent with him is not as important. That is looking at it from the judges perspective.

Parents can change their minds when they realize they need to change something. None of us are perfect and situations do warrant reexamining things from time to time.

The more time you have with SD9 gives you more time to counter the alienating effects from mom.

It took me several years to neutralize the alienation effects from my ex. 

[kells76]

Hi PinkieV, thanks for responding;

Nutshell version: DH & uBPDmom divorced for >4 years, no detailed PP, just a couple lines basically saying DH will have access to kids when he's not at work, then I think something about "both parties will discuss this". Mom interprets this very differently now, as you can imagine.

The closest thing I could think of is DH saying "Mom and I have agreed on this schedule, so that's what we're going to do". Which opens the door then for Mom to pull a "Yes, but (today is different)" move, or, putting it on DH, saying "Whatever you want to do is fine with me, stay or go, but it's up to your dad". It's tricky trying to think of how to make the order the bad guy here, when Mom both interprets it VERY differently and is convinced she HAS followed it to a T.

David, yeah, I worry about the message that gets communicated when DH leaves it up to SD9. Again, I get why he's doing it, but I disagree.

So what about this as a possibility: DH goes to pick up kids, SD9 says she doesn't want to go for whatever reason, DH says "I'm so sorry you feel that way, how about mom and I find another time this weekend for you and I to spend time together". Maybe that could be a way for DH to both "listen" to SD9 (yeah, I know, really Mom's opinion) but also to make clear that there will need to be makeup time? Would a judge view that similarly?

[david]

I forget which board it is but one of the boards has posts from adults that had a BPD parent and what they wanted/needed from the non. It might be a good idea to look at those to get a feel for what SD9 might be going through.

[PinkieV]

What if your DH emailed BM with the schedule he would like, and requested he hear from her by a certain date or he'd assume that's okay? Then when she pulls something at the door he can refer to the new "agreement".

I also think he needs to stop deferring to SD9. It's not her choice. Your DH can validate her feelings, but the rules say she visits her dad.

[Panda39]

What if your DH emailed BM with the schedule he would like, and requested he hear from her by a certain date or he'd assume that's okay? Then when she pulls something at the door he can refer to the new "agreement".

I also think he needs to stop deferring to SD9. It's not her choice. Your DH can validate her feelings, but the rules say she visits her dad.

Just wanted to pop in and say I agree.  Who's the adult here? Your husband is giving SD9 a lot of power which by extension gives the ex control.  If SD9 lived with you all the time would your husband accept this kind of behavior from her? No she's the kid... .he's the adult.  :)ad needs to take control of his parenting so that the issues are between him and mom.  Right now SD9 is being forced into the middle or being used as the third party in triangulation.

So on the one hand when dealing with mom your husband has to be firm about his rights to see his daughter and he needs to tell her and SD9 that SD9 is a child and it isn't her decision that it is the court's decision that he has access to her.  (IMO if that access is denied he needs to document it and continue to show up everytime he is scheduled for time and continue to do so until he attains visitation or you guys head back to court.)

On the other hand when alone with his daughter he needs to validate her feelings and continue to reinforce that he wants to spend time with her and he understands that she wants to spend time with mom too.  In addition to reminding her that he and mom are the adults and they will make the decisions about his visitation based on what the judge said.

I'm sorry but I can't remember are you guys going back to court for a custody modification? It might be something to consider it sounds like the PP needs to be further clarified/detailed.

There you have my 2 cents  

Take Care,

Panda39

[kells76]

This is helpful feedback, and food for thought. Thanks so far to everyone who's written.

Panda39, to answer your last question, DH is going back for the first time to get a detailed, not basic, PP. Current one says he will have access to kids when he's not at work, and that's literally all -- says nothing about vacation etc, so he hasnt had more than 3 days in a row with kids since... .ever. So step 1 is "mediate" with Mom, step 2 (when mediation fails) is file detailed equitable PP, step 3 is Mom objects to it, step 4 is if she has a L by then, L's talk (I think).

Side note, given how Mom has behaved with letting kids know adult legal info, wouldn't be surprised if DH had to go for custody mod down the road.

Ok, so, overall the feedback is pretty much that DH has to start enforcing his own PT. This is where we need some detailed help with how that would look. Mom is subtle enough that she has never actually uttered the words "I am not letting you see the kids". It's always "They don't feel like it today". So here is where detailed info would be appreciated -- talk me through how DH goes about getting his time with the kids without his fear of destroying their trust.

Likely Mom would do something like say "I have no problem with the kids staying here or going with you, so it's up to you if you want to take the kids". Effectively not supporting their time with him. Once the PP is signed/filed then I agree with PinkieV and others that referencing it is a really good tactic so Mom can't make DH the bad guy. But what to do until then? Is there any middle way where DH can avoid Mom making him the bad guy when she passively says "Oh, it's all fine with me, it's up to your dad if he wants to take you"?

Do you get what DH feels stuck about? He's kind of in a corner, having told SD9 he wouldn't force her to spend time with him. Can he at all honor that and enforce his time? Am I making sense? Does he just have to suck it up until it's court ordered?

I'm rememberin something that I think both David & LnL mentioned about DH changing his mind. Something about DH talking to the kids and saying Well, at first I said X, but I've been thinking about it, and I realized that actually Y is better (or something). How could that look? Can he keep their trust when making such a huge change in how he operates? Or is it going to shake them a lot? (Lots of fears going on here... .)

[david]

"I've been thinking about it and I really like seeing you and miss you. I value the time we have together." Something like that might be good.

I have a court ordered custody plan. Last winter I got a call from S17's school. The nurse told me he was vomiting and she had called his mom several times with no answer. I picked him up shortly after that. We were nearly home when ex called. I only communicate through email so I sent an email when we got home. I told her all S17 symptoms, that he went to bed immediately, etc. She insisted I bring him to her place since it was her custodial time. I repeated everything I said before. Hours later I received a call from the police. I explained the situation and he understood. He asked me to contact ex so I sent another email.

Days later I was to pick our S12 up at her residence for my custodial time. Ex sent an email saying he felt sick and she didn't think it was a good idea for me to pick him up. I called to talk to him but her phone went to voicemail immediately. My suspicion was she was lying so I went to pick him up like my email said I would. I said nothing of what I thought. Our order is very specific about pick up times. I am to call her phone and hang up when her voicemail kicks in. The boys are to come out or contact me in some fashion within 5 minutes. I called and hung up like our order says. No response. I tried two more times. That took around 15 minutes total. I then called the police and explained the situation. They sent an officer out. He said there was nothing he could do since this was a civil matter and I would have to call my atty. I expressed concern for everyone's well being and asked for a well being check. He didn't like that but I forced his hand. He started to walk to her door and miraculously S12 came bouncing out of the front door. He got in the car and asked what was going on. I explained that I arrived about 45 minutes ago and I called the police because I thought something might have happened. He said mom was acting weird and disconnected the house phone. I simply said I was glad everyone was okay and changed the subject.

I am very used to this kind of stuff so it doesn't get to me. I find a solution and go with it. I am not dealing with a reasonable/normal/whatever you want to call it situation and have to find ways around the obstacles.

I am much better at it than in the beginning. It takes practice and patience. The "good" thing is my ex hasn't changed her behavior much. It varies but she has a few methods to her behaviors. Once I realized that it became easier to adapt and accomplish what I think best for our boys. In the beginning she was confounding for me but over time, several years, I began to see consistent patterns in her.

If mom says "they don't feel like it today" and the kids are not present then simply say you are picking them up anyway. Yes, she will relay that to the kids. A simple "I missed you guys or I really wanted to see you." is a sufficient answer at their ages. Okay, you are the bad guy. A few times of this and "they don't feel like it today" may disappear and a new excuse will present itself. Be prepared to answer by picking the kids up. The longer you establish that pattern the easier court will be. Also by enforcing the boundary it may be easier at "mediation". It is a hassle to establish boundaries with BPD but it is necessary in order to achieve anything positive.

Changing your mind when you find a new or better way is a normal human thing to do. Changing it erratically and haphazardly is not. That can be part of a conversation with DH and the kids about the change. Having examples that are age appropriate can help a lot.

[Panda39]

If mom says "they don't feel like it today" and the kids are not present then simply say you are picking them up anyway. Yes, she will relay that to the kids. A simple "I missed you guys or I really wanted to see you." is a sufficient answer at their ages. Okay, you are the bad guy. A few times of this and "they don't feel like it today" may disappear and a new excuse will present itself. Be prepared to answer by picking the kids up. The longer you establish that pattern the easier court will be. Also by enforcing the boundary it may be easier at "mediation". It is a hassle to establish boundaries with BPD but it is necessary in order to achieve anything positive.

David is articulating better what I was trying to get at when I said... .

... .(IMO if that access is denied he needs to document it and continue to show up everytime he is scheduled for time and continue to do so until he attains visitation or you guys head back to court.)... .

Even if access is refused it is my feeling that your husband needs to continue to show up to demonstrate to his D9 his desire to see her, so she knows dad loves her even though she in the FOG and behaving this way because of her mom.  It shows her that he is consistent.  He also needs to keep it up so that he can document his repeated attempts to see his daughter and that mom is not facilitating that.  Is there any phone contact between them? That might be another way to keep a connection going with D9.

I wish I had the perfect response to counter every move the ex is making but unfortunately I don't.  I like david's suggestion and I know you will hear from others with good ideas in terms of what to say.  My SO did the heavy lifting when it came to his daughters and dealing with their mother all I can say is that he took every opportunity he had to spend time with them or talk to them even if that meant driving them to the dentist or to get school supplies.  (Usually if it meant he spent money on the kids and she didn't have to their mom was okay with dad taking the kids somewhere  )

Panda39

[Turkish]

If it shakes them (SD9), it will. Things are going to change. Your SD is going to rebel, most likely. Validation goes a long way, but being firm and consistent will help in the long run. That is to say, not backining away from the order to rescue either BPD mom's or SD9's feelings, which are the same at this point due to enmeshment. Firm, unyielding, and SD9 needs to see that it's coming from her dad, not you so much. Kids need that authority, consistently. He's the parent, her father. She'll definitely test boundaries, but you are the adults.

[livednlearned]

Hi kells76,

It sounds like there are two basic strategies.

One is about positioning DH so that he is successful in court. That means he needs to put together (and document) decisions that tell court (in no uncertain terms) that he wants more time with his kids, and that biomom is blocking that. If DH says, "The girls get to decide" and then shows up in court with a history of saying that, and makes the argument that the girls get to decide, even though he wants the judge to decide, then he's going to confuse a lot of people and probably not get the outcome he wants. And even if he does get the outcome he wants, he has to enforce it. Not let the girls be the deciders.

To be clear in court, DH's L may need to say, "Biomom and DH signed a parenting agreement that was signed in good faith, in the hopes that both parties could work together. That isn't working. Biomom is blocking access. Here's the evidence. My client wants at least equal time. Yes, under this prior agreement, my client has allowed the girls to decide, and he recognizes, after consulting with child psychologists, that the kids have been put in an impossible position to choose between parents. My client is also concerned that the kids are being enlisted and exposed to conversations about legal talk. For example, this letter written by SD9. My client proposes that the girls work with Ts to understand why mom and dad will be making decisions going forward."

The other strategy is about what to do when a BPD parent blocks access. If the message is that SD9 gets to decide, and she is successfully alienated, and DH believes she should decide, then... .I'm not sure how he can enforce the pick-up, since he is complicit in letting SD9 decide.  

It's really important that DH digs into this and figures out what's going on with him. You can present all the strategies in the world, but if DH believes SD9 gets to decide, then that's not much different than saying biomom gets to decide, at least in terms of creating more consistent access, because SD9 appears to be more enmeshed with mom.

I can tell you as a grown adult that saying no to someone with BPD is a terrifying experience. With kids, it is ten times more difficult. Their very survival feels dependent on pleasing the BPD parent.

[david]

I think lnl makes a good point about "putting the kids in an impossible situation to choose between parents."

I understand that you want kids to learn to make decisions and have choices. With two normal parents that is the best course of action. However, with two normal parents you would not be having the troubles you are having. I learned that my ex's motivations have nothing to do with what is best for our boys and more about "control" or maybe "winning". That is her being in control over me or her beating me and therefore winning. It has nothing to do with the kids.

I stopped trying to reason with my ex because that always led to a back and forth email exchange that became an exercise in futility and frustration. I've shown the emails exchanges to several friends, the T I was seeing years back, and our co parent counselor, and they all pretty much said the same things. I doubted myself a lot back then and needed others to see what I thought I was seeing.

Back in 2008 or 2009 (it was years back) ex would send an email saying that she had some kind of plans with the boys and wanted some extra time. I agreed for the sake of the kids figuring she was going to do something with them like she said. I found out later that she did nothing with them at all. This happened enough times for me to realize I needed to stop agreeing so I stopped. She got angry in an email and that was about it. It took me a bunch of replies of "no" before she began to stop trying so much. I changed my behavior and she had to learn how to adapt. The strength I had was a court order that gave me that time.

I usually go with what I think is best for our boys (A). I then think about how I present it to ex figuring that a judge will be reading the email at some point in the future (B). I always follow the A to B pattern. IF A trumps the court order then I follow A. I have only done that in a few circumstances like the one I described in the earlier post. I figure if ex did take me to court I was comfortable enough in my decision that I believed a judge would agree with my decision.

Using the earlier example, say ex took me to court because I picked up S17 at school even though it was ex's custodial time. I could show that ex was called several times by the school and they didn't get through. They called me and I picked S17 up. I drove him home and he went to bed. He had chills, was nauseous, etc. Ex sent an email demanding me to drive him to her place and I simply replied with S17 symptoms and said I would not be taking him out of bed to drive him anywhere but the doctor. It is all in emails to ex. What judge is going to find me in contempt of court ? Remember, family court is supposed to make decisions based on what is in the child's best interest. Child's best interest trumps the court order in this situation. When I picked S12 up a few days later I sent an email to ex when I got home letting ex know that his temp was normal (I gave the exact number) and that he said he felt fine. I also said if anything changed from that I would contact her immediately. 

Perhaps in your situation you can pick up SD9 and find out why she doesn't feel good. Check her temp. Go through the motions with her and send an email to mom letting her know SD9 has no symptoms. Simply state facts and make no conclusions. Doing this several times shows a consistent pattern and may indicate to the courts, therapists, etc. that mom is doing something that is not in the child's best interest. This may stop mom from doing what she is doing and it also protects you in court. It's simply going from A to B.

[kells76]

This is more really, really helpful feedback -- thank you all.

Before responding more, I wanted to say that LnL, I think you pinpointed the conflict for me -- that there are now 2 concerns (what to do legally) instead of just 1 (what to do for parenting). I think that's part of why DH & I suddenly seemed on different pages -- I was way, way more in "what's good legally" mode, and he is much better at staying in "how to parent in this situation" mode. I think we will definitely find common ground but this switch to now having to really consider the legal aspect of things is no small change.

There is so much good stuff in all your responses; thanks a ton for being there for us.

[livednlearned]

It is probably very hard for you, too, because you see a loving dad who is being thoughtful with his girls -- letting them have a say in what they want. And he is a thoughtful, loving dad. He's all of those things.

He is also learning to assert himself with biomom, and meanwhile, he's total jello with his girls. Even though the girls are not their mom, they are going to be very influenced by her, thanks to BPD.

So ultimately the boundaries for mom have to be extended to boundaries for the girls. That's hard to do.    Your H is going to have to disappoint his girls to assert his boundaries, and that can be really, really hard. It made me feel sick to my stomach to assert boundaries with my son  :'(  and I felt dread just thinking about having to tell him no about xyz.

I don't think you can easily separate out the "what's good for parenting" from the legal approach. And if it's too hard to do that, then it's worth having a serious discussion about the emotional and psychological costs of going to court when the strategy is only on paper.

Because the important thing to remember is that the court's ruling is only effective if H is willing to enforce it.

[ForeverDad]

If BM counters with, "she doesn't want to go" he can reiterate that he's following the order.  If BM says "SD doesn't feel well" he can answer that he'll make sure to take extra good care of her, and he's following the order.  The trick is to make the order the "bad guy" instead of him, at least to SD.  Kids have a lot of people making rules for them - parents, teachers, coaches - so they can understand on that level.  He can shrug his shoulders and say "we have to follow what the court says, they made the rules".

Just my two cents! 

This is excellent strategy.  Let the order or the judge or the lawyers be the "bad guys", actually that's part of their jobs.  And it helps us when we can divert attention, criticism and pleading from us to elsewhere.  The court is The Authority, greater than the parents and certainly greater than the children.

I recall the time I got a magistrate to glare daggers at me.  I happened to mention that son didn't always want to go to school every day.  She caustically remarked, "Well, the child doesn't get to choose!"

So ultimately the boundaries for mom have to be extended to boundaries for the girls.

Because the important thing to remember is that the court's ruling is only effective if H is willing to enforce it.

Yes, boundaries are good but initially hard to do.

That said, it may be very hard for DH to be fully convinced of the time-tested logic, boundaries, approaches and strategies offered here in peer support.  Would he feel better to explain the problem to the counselor, list the range of suggestions and strategies he's heard and ask the counselor for input?  The counselor may be more of an authority figure to him than we are here.

Eventually he may come to realize that the differences between what we suggest and what the counselors suggest are (1) local specific aspects and (2) the cost.

[david]

I think many of us on this site have a personality that BPD's see and use to their advantage. That isn't worded all that well but it makes the point. I used to be afraid of repercussions/anger/retaliation from ex against me or our boys when I did something that would upset ex. It was, in many ways, the way I behaved during our marriage when ex would get angry and I would try to calm things done or get out of her way.

I realized, with the help of a therapist, that things would never change until I changed. I felt uneasy in the beginning. Gradually the extinction bursts from ex and all the other nonsense subsided. I stuck to my boundaries and things got better.

Ex still gets angry and still accuses me of nonsense. The difference is I no longer react and instead do what I think is best for our boys and not what will upset ex or not. To a large extent this strategy has worked extremely well. I still have times I wish things would get better between ex and I as far as raising the boys but I have come to accept the fact that it probably will always be this way.

I always blamed the judge and the court order in the beginning. The boys were 10 and 5 back then. Over time, ex's alienation tactics stopped being effective and started to backfire on her. They are now 17 and 12 and things are much better.

[Panda39]

I think many of us on this site have a personality that BPD's see and use to their advantage. That isn't worded all that well but it makes the point. I used to be afraid of repercussions/anger/retaliation from ex against me or our boys when I did something that would upset ex. It was, in many ways, the way I behaved during our marriage when ex would get angry and I would try to calm things done or get out of her way.

I realized, with the help of a therapist, that things would never change until I changed. I felt uneasy in the beginning. Gradually the extinction bursts from ex and all the other nonsense subsided. I stuck to my boundaries and things got better.

Ex still gets angry and still accuses me of nonsense. The difference is I no longer react and instead do what I think is best for our boys and not what will upset ex or not. To a large extent this strategy has worked extremely well. I still have times I wish things would get better between ex and I as far as raising the boys but I have come to accept the fact that it probably will always be this way.

I always blamed the judge and the court order in the beginning. The boys were 10 and 5 back then. Over time, ex's alienation tactics stopped being effective and started to backfire on her. They are now 17 and 12 and things are much better.

I saw the same thing with my SO and his daughters.   

When we initially started dating my outrage helped my SO sometimes understand what things were out of whack.  He had gradually come to accept some bad behavior as "normal" during the 20 years of his marriage.  I was a sort of BS gage for him.  He (and this site later) had to help me reign in my outrage 

I'm okay now... .really I am 

[GaGrl]

We had exactly he same experience... .DH had such a warped view of what constituted acceptable behavior that our first year was really spent reshaping his reality! This site helped me with my outrage and anger, helped me get to a balanced place. I had to radically accept the Ex and what comes with her... .including her legacy.