How to address neglect?

[BonusMom]

I don't even know where to begin.  

My bf's uBPD/BiP/NPD ex is neglecting their daughters' basic needs. We have my bf's daughters (ages 5 and 7) 50% of the time. They often arrive not having been bathed since we last had them. It's so bad that the younger daughter's butt and genitals are very red and itchy. Last time, they hadn't been bathed in 4 1/2 days.   Sometimes, they are ravenous, not having eaten lunch, for example, when it's past lunchtime. A few nights ago, we happened to see the girls outside (the ex lives in our neighborhood). One was riding a scooter, the other riding a bike, and neither of them had on a helmet or shoes. The ex and her bf were down the street, sitting in their front yard, while the girls were at the end of the road like this. My bf and I were completely appalled and angry, of course.

The age-old question we often ask here is coming: what would you do? Other than bathe, feed and protect them well when they are in our care, of course. It seems like this should be addressed, and the ex is extremely volatile and seems to adore conflict. No telling what kind of frenzy this would send her into, as she can do no wrong, and everyone else is to blame always.

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi there.  I wish I really knew.  Your situation is very similar to mine.  In fact, at first I thought you were my wife posting!  My ex-wife also has a long history of neglect (except, of course, when she has to prove herself, such as when a court case is looming).  My children experience a lot of similar things.  What makes it worse is that my older child finally refused to go over to mom's.  This is good, in a way, because it allows this child to begin healing and to stay away from a toxic person and situation, but it is bad in that it leaves the youngest child with nobody looking out for her other than her neglectful mother who does whatever she can to cover up her neglect.  Everybody knows this about her, too, but many people are afraid of her.  They don't want the trouble.  And it is hard to prove a lot of it.

We have a court date coming up to answer for parenting time.  I have seriously thought many times about dropping the whole thing and keeping it 50/50.  Why?  Because in court she is going to lie, and she is going to come unglued when I even attempt to expose her in a courtroom setting.  I may "win" in the court-sense, but we may all "lose" (including and especially my youngest child) with the amount of drama and deceit and controlling behaviors.  I think there has been name-smearing, manipulation, lying, and volatility already?  It will get 100 times worse.  In some ways, it is better to just make sure my youngest has something at school to eat when her mom drives her to school late and doesn't feed her breakfast (which is almost every time when she is at her mom's).  In some ways, it is better to just coach her about what to do if she sees her mommy have too many bottles of alcohol and wants to get into the car.  In some ways, it is better to make sure she knows an emergency plan in case her mom's boyfriend starts being violent again.  In some says, it is better to just validate her feelings and tell her I'm sorry she is going through that, but that I love her and that soon she will be old enough to make the decision for herself.  But I know you already know the problem with this... .when we do nothing, it may cut down on the conflict but it puts the problem all on the head of our children.  Yes, there is less lying and manipulation and covering up (though there is still plenty), but ultimately for who?  For me.  For my marriage.  My kid still has to deal with her mom being her mom.  And that sucks.

Of course, even in a court situation it is not as clear-cut as we would like it.  Mediators and judges view this as a civil matter between two disagreeing parties.  They don't see things so much in terms of mental health, nor would they really grasp the reality of it.  This means, as you know, that they are susceptible to the BPD's charms and lies just like anybody.

I wish I had a clear-cut answer.  I know people in this group who have finally said, "enough is enough" and pursued custody or majority parenting time, and they've got it.  They then have to cut communication down to almost nothing.  But it doesn't keep their child away from their BPD ex.  That is nearly impossible.  Unless there is a pattern of them physically or sexually abusing them that can be proven, judges these days (at least around here) really look to make sure BOTH parents are still in the children's lives.  So, it becomes a matter of weighing things out.  Honestly, after going through this off and on for a couple years and working closely with my lawyer, things like not wearing a helmet and not being washed often raise some red flags, certainly, but if we tried to argue that our child is "endangered" because of it, we would probably be laughed at.  

In the end, it is about gathering what you can actually prove, keeping your head on straight so that they can't prove anything against you, and waiting for a time to act.  Usually, you have to be able to prove a significant enough change in circumstances, otherwise the judge would ask you why you didn't handle those matters before (or he/she would just assume that they were handled in the previous ruling or settlement).  In the meantime, love your kids, watch out for trying to pressure them to choose you over their other parent (let the negative outcomes of that fall on the head of the BPD ex, not you), coach them and listen to them, validate their feelings, tell them the truth without bad-mouthing, and just keep an eye on things.

Keep in mind that schools tend to notice things like this, as well.  And many school employees are "mandatory reporters" for DHS... .when they witness anything that appears to be abuse or neglect, they have to report it.  

As far as actually communicating with the ex about these things, good luck.  My ex either denies it, lies about it, minimizes it, blame-shifts ("oh, the kids complain about things like that from your house, too", or takes it out angrily on me or the kids.  One time I confronted my ex about the kids complaining how they were always hungry and there was nothing to eat over there.  So my ex later told me how she force-fed my youngest at dinner as she was crying, to make sure she couldn't complain about being hungry.  The kids learn to keep their mouth shut out of fear.  It is sad.  That's why we need to keep encouraging them to have their voice.

One thing you can do is let a professional get involved.  For example, take the kids to the doctors for their rashes.  The doctor will be able to tell it is from not washing.  You can explain the dilemma to the doctor.  He may report it -he may not.  But then you can write an email to the ex (I do not communicate with mine over phone or text anymore... .which was something I should have done ages ago) explaining what the doctor said.  Keep things non-confrontational... .the more they think you are being their friend, the better it is.  "Hey, so I know that the days get really busy and it's hard to keep track of this stuff, but can you just make sure they take baths?  The doctor wants to check on them again in a few weeks."  I absolutely hate doing this.  And by the way, unless his ex really hates you, it is probably better if you handle the communication (sadly).  My wife absolutely dreads it, but it really cuts down on drama.

I hope this helps.  I wish there was a simple, clear-cut answer.  The tendency to manage outcomes isn't great, but when it comes to the welfare of the kids it can be an important consideration.  Sometimes direct conflict is worse, but sometimes handling things head-on has to happen.  I know my ex is going to flip when some witnesses emerge, and it will make some things much worse.  But I hope I'm doing right by just trying to make it better for my daughter.

[BonusMom]

Thank you so much, OOE!

I've read a few of your posts and thought how similar your situation sounds, right down to how happy you are with your wife (YAY for a new, better life!). You sound so much like my bf that I've considered directing him to some of your posts since I know he could relate.

I'm sorry you and your kids are having to deal with similar neglect issues. It sounds like you've tried many approaches depending on the situations (which as we know, are ever-changing), and you're doing the best thing now by taking your ex to court. Are you seeking full custody?

Seeing the girls' neglect has me reconsidering sticking to the 50/50 plan, too. The neglect along with her covertly withdrawing them from school on one of our days and taking them out of state has removed any benefit of the doubt I gave her over the first 9 months of our relationship. Did I mention the countless other times she's violated the parenting agreement and that she threatened to move them out of the country earlier this year? Anyway, back to the neglect. I know the kids are happy and well-loved when with us, so I'm now thinking we should take them every chance we have -- all those "optional" weekends around holidays -- and perhaps every time she offers them to us. See, I was holding back on those times since 1) I figured sticking to the every-other-weekend routine would be easier on the girls and us, and hold her accountable for her 50% ,and 2) she is very manipulative in how she handles offering the girls to us on her time, yet begs and manipulates to take them on our time, sometimes for long periods (lengthy and hard to explain). Those times she takes them for long periods or on the spur-of-the-moment seem to be difficult on the girls, as that's when D5 tends to act out aggressively toward other kids in school. It's a complex situation.

My bf and I are trying to figure out what's best for the girls in every situation. Should we take them the 3 weekends in a row that are available to us via the parenting agreement in Nov. and Dec.? They will hardly see their mom (is that more good than bad?). Cons: It will piss her off. It will change the routine temporarily. Pros: They'll be well-loved with us. We (and the rest of our family) get quality time with them. Any feedback here would be appreciated.

Similar to your situation, D7 is expressing more and more how she wishes she could stay here everyday. It's hard seeing her sad when it's time to leave. I wouldn't be surprised if she eventually makes the same choice your older child made.

We're going to start keeping records of every neglect we encounter (along with all of the other records we keep of parenting agreement violations, stalking behavior, etc.). I'm thinking of how we can coach them about wearing shoes and helmets when we're not around. I know everything we say can make its way back to their mom, but some things have to be said.

I like your advice about taking them to the doctor. Sadly, the ex IS a doctor. Can you believe it?   Also, yes, I agree, email is the best mode of communication with her. Fortunately, she's been complying with that -- lately. Her bf, not so much. We're in the process of setting very clear boundaries with him. Unfortunately, he seems very similar to her with his persistence and manipulative, controlling, odd behavior.

Thanks again for your advice and insight. It really helps! Good luck with your case. Your kids are lucky to have you and your wife.

[sweetheart]

Hello BonusMum,

I usually post in Staying, but read here for help with parenting as my h has BPD.

I used to work in a community addiction clinic many years ago as a nurse therapist. A lot of our work was working jointly and liaising with Child Services. This is what I took away from that time more than anything else; that if children are subjected to emotional abuse and physical neglect on a consistent basis especially when they are young then everything that can be done should be done to either lessen the impact of this with a view to getting them away from that situation altogether if the issues continue.

I was a practitioner who thought that children should always stay with their parents, that support, education and time was all that was needed to turn things around. I was a naive fool, Children should not be where abuse is present. Never at any cost.

So if you can have them three w/e's in a row and this will alleviate some of their suffering then do it. Have them as much as you possibly can because that is what they need to help boost their emotional resilience.  Take them whenever you can in a way that makes it seem like you are doing the mum a favour.

Doing what OOE suggests and starting to document and report everything, anything at all, sounds like a great plan.

Can you get some legal advice on how to proceed?

[OutOfEgypt]

I agree.  I would take any optional time you can get with them.  And I would coach them any way I can.  It may get back to mom, it may not.  Either way, I agree that you have to do what you can do to be good parents to the kids.

She's a doctor?  You're kidding.  She must be high-functioning BPD?  Or a narcissist perhaps?  That stinks.

Neglect can be hard to prove, from what I gather.  So much is hearsay.  We can document everything, but if it is primarily what our kids tell us, it is unusable in court because it is hearsay.  We need to document things we witness.  For example, you can use, "The kids came home wearing the same clothes they wore last week, and the clothes are dirty, and the kids smell.  They have rashes in their private areas and it appears that they aren't clean down there."   But you can't use, "the kids told me they didn't take a bath all week."

The hearsay thing may sound frustrating at first, but it is actually a good safeguard.  I don't know about you, but if we could testify about things our children said, my ex-wife would make up all kinds of things the kids allegedly "told her", things that would miraculously undermine all of my evidence.  So, it is frustrating but it is also good.

A good case will be based on good witnesses and hard proof.  Take pictures of their rashes if you need to.  Keep it all.  Make a folder, and put it all in there.  Print out emails if they seem incriminating at all.  Have mutual friends on Facebook?  If she writes anything incriminating on FB, get screenshots.  Is she ever in trouble with the law?  She's a doctor by day, but is she a party animal by night or anything like that?  You could go to the police station and ask for an activity report at her address.  It would tell you if the police ever respond to anything at her residence.  :)oes she go out partying and leave them at home on her time with them?  Posts and pictures on Facebook would indicate that.  So would witnesses who saw her out.

Her bf sounds like a piece of work.  What's his story?  Does he have a record?  These are things you can probably investigate on your own.  If he has any history of violence or criminal activity, that is a big red flag for judges.

It's sad, but if you know she's bad for the kids, you gotta do your homework and be vigilant, until the time when you have enough to make a move (usually there has to be a change of circumstance that you need to be able to prove warrants a change in custody/parenting time).

I'm not going after "custody," technically, since we don't disagree on matters relating to school or faith(would be hard to prove that there is a reason to without any actual dispute about any of those matters).  But I am seeking to change it so that this is their primary residence and they live with me most of the time.

[Turkish]

I'd be leery of taking pictures of children's private areas due to child porn laws. After D3's molestation drama earlier this year, I told the cops, CPS, and a PA (who did the examination two days later) that I wanted to take pics the night D3 told me (and her genital area was red and swollen), but i was afraid that I would get in trouble. They just kind of looked and me and I didn't get a straight answer if it would have been ok or not.

To be safe, take the kids to a doctor to document it, but of course write down your observations.

[OutOfEgypt]

Woops.  Yeah, good point, Turkish 

[BonusMom]

Thanks for your insight and advice, sweetheart. I believe you are exactly right. Your insight resonated so strongly with me that I've reconstructed my boundaries around "helping" her out and taking the girls whenever possible. My bf agrees, and we're making moves toward doing that.

Also, we're documenting everything, and my bf is hoping to get some time with his attorney this week to see how we should proceed. We live in a state where it is very tough to get custody unless there is some kind of indisputable, blatant abuse. When they were divorcing, his attorney advised it wasn't worth the fight then. My bf will update him, and we'll see what we can do.

That's a good point about hearsay, OOE, and yes, the ex is high-functioning and has very strong NPD traits. I hadn't considered looking into her bf's history or calling the police station about activity at her address. I don't believe my bf and her have any mutual FB friends, but I'll find out. Those are great suggestions. Thank you once again.

Turkish, I'm so sorry you and D3 went through that. How very awful.  I agree that taking pics of those areas could go very wrong. We'll stick to documenting our observations, and I've suggested to my bf we take the girls to the doctor next time they arrive in that condition. Her bf left the country yesterday, so it will be interesting if there are any changes.

[sweetheart]

Sounds just great BonusMum   

Let us know how you get on. 

[ambivalentmom]

The doctor and/or CPS can take pictures if you can coordinate a time close to a time when they are coming back.  You can even call as a "concerned neighbor" about them not being well-supervised, then when CPS calls you, you can express a concern about the rashes.  If you can, have CPS/Doctor send pictures directly to L.

I hope some of this helps, that's a horrible place to be in.

[BonusMom]

To update, my bf spoke to his attorney yesterday. He'd like full custody, but that's very difficult to achieve in this state in the absence of blatant abuse. His attorney advised focusing on the "big" stuff, like anything pointing toward abuse, and suggested taking the girls to the doctor next time they arrive with irritation around their privates areas and documenting everything. He seemed most struck by the ex's response to a concern my bf voiced to her last time they met in person. He told her sometimes D5 was pointing to his penis and saying, ":)addy, your penis!" or, ":)addy, can I touch your penis?" (Yes, we've asked her if anyone has allowed her to touch his penis, and she said, "No." The ex replied, "What, are you suggesting that my bf is molesting her? I would never let that happen!" No, that wasn't his suggestion. WTH. Defensive, much? I'd think a healthy mom would express concern, not defensiveness.   She went on to say that yes, D5 points at her private areas when she gets out of the shower sometimes, but that was it. Lately, D5 is constantly grabbing herself between her legs, and I've seen her do some things to her sister that could be construed as sexual. I know kids learn these things from other people. So, yes, the potential for sexual abuse is real, and our eyes are wide open. They WILL be examined by a doctor next time they arrive with genital irritation, or at their next yearly physical, whichever comes first.

[livednlearned]

Just wanted to ditto the advice about taking the girls whenever it's possible -- even a few hours can help kids deal with what can sometimes be intense stress. Also, if you happen to end up back in court, the status quo of how much time they spend with you can go a long way. Document every minute they spend with you.

The boundary part can still apply. For example, if the ex thinks she can get you or BF to drop everything, it helps to think about ways to respond so that you aren't constantly on your back heels. In general, people with BPD aren't good at problem solving, so I found I still had to develop those communication skills to make sure my ex took part in problem solving.

I'm wondering if the school is aware of the neglect and hygiene issues? My son's school actually came to me about something similar. S14 has remarkably strong body odor, and that kid can not miss even one day of bathing or else hoowhee. Sometimes you have to enlist the teacher's to help in ways that completely circumvent the BPD parent. In elementary school, if S14's body odor was noticeable, his teacher took him to see the nurse so he could put on some unscented deodorant. The nurse even recommended a super strength deodorant and antispirant that goes on at night, and that's become his routine. He was too young back then to remember all the time, and N/BPDx was not on the ball when it came to any of the details.

Having someone with BPD in your life can really force you to get creative  

EDITED TO ADD: my lawyer told me I had a close to zero chance of getting full custody in the absence of abuse too. And then I ended up with full custody.

Lawyers tell us what is normal to expect because they don't want to lose. They try to manage our expectations. Fine, I get it. But with BPD parents, sometimes you have to over reach for what you want, knowing you might not get it, and still go for it anyway. I actually think that asking for full custody consistently over my 4 years of custody drama (my ex was an attorney, so we tilted toward constant litigation) actually sent a strong message to the courts and factored into the final ruling.

[Turkish]

I've been thinking about this all day,  based upon my experiences. I assume that D5 is saying this with her dad fully clothed? I didn't worry about modesty so much when the kids were 4 and 2, but I've put down boundaries, especially since D3 is so clingy to me. Shower to bathroom, ten feet, but I'll shut the door when D3 tries to barge in. Except in a flash (and as I said, not now), she's not seen me naked. We stopped the co-baths about siix months ago... D3 was pulling on her brother's penis 

Teaching the kds about body parts is good. But I have a boy and a girl. It's concerning that D5 would be asking about daddy's penis unless she's seen it. Maybe nothing untoward is going in at the other house, but maybe the bf is walkng around naked? What does D7 say?

[BonusMom]

Thanks, Turkish, for sharing your experience. Yes, shower to bathroom only here, too, and D5 was saying that when he was fully clothed, pointing to his private areas. She has walked in and tried to watch him shower, and he told her to stop, she asked why, and he said he doesn't like to be stared at while he's showering. She hasn't been doing these things lately, though it's still concerning combined with everything else.

When asked, D5 says no, no one has ever touched her private areas, nor has she touched anyone else's. D7 was silent the other night when asked if anyone has touched her, and she changed the subject. When redirected to the question, she said no, she hasn't been touched there by anyone. We do keep communication open and tell them to let us know if anyone ever tries touching them. I know how kids can be silent, though.

[Turkish]

Hard to say what's going on with D7. I might lay off asking them for a while... .but be vigilant. I tried to ask and be as positive and calm as possible so the kids didn't pick up on anything like anxiety. S5 later changed his story (which my T said was typical... .I still feel like someone on the other side may have said things to him like ":)3 is lying, your uncle never did that!". However, D3 told me again just the other night when I was wiping her down (she peed her pants when she fell asleep in the car seat), "I'm going to wipe you off now, even down here [I pointed], but I'm not going to touch you on the inside, just wipe your outside. And no one except me, Mommy or the doctor is supposed to touch you down there," and she responded, "And Uncle [name]!"   She didn't say it like she was traumatized, but matter-of-factually, a memory. I told her mom and we agreed to stop telling her who is supposed to and not supposed to touch her. It's hard with little kids to get straight answers. Asking too much may result in them shutting down. I wish I had a definitive answer here. My T said that a lot of the curiosity is natural, so there's that, too.

[livednlearned]

My son's elementary school had sex ed classes once a year. The school social worker said one of the objectives of those classes with little kids was to pay attention to kids who responded in atypical ways.

Would be useful to talk to the school social worker or counselor (or both, some schools also have "family specialists" and ask them about the classes, what is taught in them, what kind of behaviors alert them to potential problems. I sat in on the class, just to get a sense of what the kids learn.

You wouldn't necessarily have to alert the social worker that you have concerns. Or, ask the question as "I know a child who... ." in case you're worried about pushing things farther than you want.

[Ulysses]

When asked, D5 says no, no one has ever touched her private areas, nor has she touched anyone else's. D7 was silent the other night when asked if anyone has touched her, and she changed the subject. When redirected to the question, she said no, she hasn't been touched there by anyone. We do keep communicatio open and tell them to let us know if anyone ever tries touching them. I know how kids can be silent, though.

Sometimes drawing with children can help them get their emotions, ideas, etc., out.  When they're as young as 3 or 5 you might be able to ask them to draw how they feel "when... ."  7 might be too old, I don't know.  Getting them in the habit of drawing their feelings, in general, can help them and you.  It helped me with both of my children, and helped my D T and school counselor see what she was feeling (assuming her pictures accurately reflected her emotions).

Get outside people involved if you can.  Nurses, doctors, counselors.  When my D was 5 and 6 she was neglected and was in my opinion put in danger a few times (e.g. using a treadmill in a mansion in a room by herself; fell and got all scraped up, had long hair, thank God she wasn't killed).  2 nurses saw the scrapes on her legs, asked her what happened, and proceeded to talk to her about safety, don't use exercise equipment, etc.  Her school counselor told me to talk with her, have ongoing conversations, about why do we have rules (to keep us safe), use an example of, as an adult I might not want to follow a rule (e.g.speed limit) but I know it's to keep me safe, you safe, other people safe, so I always follow it.  Hopefully they will internalize that and apply it to their own lives.

If one poster suggested you contact you bf's ex, I can't agree with that in general.  I don't know your specific story, so please disregard my comment if I'm missing something.  In my opinion, in general, communication about children is best handeled between the two biological parents.  In my personal situation, exNPD/BPDh is quite good at manipulating others to do his work for him, and be outraged on his behalf, and proclaim his outstanding ethics, morality, and victimhood.  He's a "respected" professional and tries really hard to present one version of himself to the public.  Privately he's a sadist who punches holes in the wall, lies, gaslights, etc.  I also don't want to be involved in his triangulations.

It's so hard to see young children neglected.  I also went through that, and cried tears of sadness for my kids, and tears of frustration.  I hope you're able to make their situation a little better with the care you can offer them in the short term, and in the long term with the support and love you give them.