Choosing not to engage on an issue

[formflier]

Things have been going very well lately.

My sleep numbers are up and I have a new program on my machine which gives me more pressure (more on that some other time).

I'm also being deliberate about trying to slow down responses and try to evaluate if an answer is going to be helpful or provocative before it leaves my lips.

So, I was responsible for taking food to a mens bible study/prayer group this morning.  So, I borrowed a neat fruit organizer tray that my wife has and filled it with raspberries, strawberries, blueberries, blackberries and mango slices.  In the middle of the organizer tray was a place for dip.  I chose a chocolate dip and put it in there.

Also took a box of fresh muffins from the store.  An assortment of chocolate, blueberry and some sort of banana nut thing.

This was my first time bringing food, I'm a bit on the "foodie" side of things so I wanted to do it up.  We normally don't have an assortment, someone brings one thing. 

Anyway, all the guys loved it.  We stood around talking for 30 minutes or so picking out fruit and dipping. 

Well, I thanked my wife for use of the tray and said it was a hit.  Not really sure what response I was really looking for, perhaps "good, I'm glad it went well"

What I got was "Just so you know, you took the wrong dip.  Women like chocolate, guys don't."  Honestly she didn't say it mean.  I think she was honestly try to "teach" me something.

I didn't react.  I considering trying to explain my point of view, or that guys like chocolate, or,   Then I ended my internal dialogue by determining to stay positive.  Something along the lines of "Ohhh, I'll try to remember that for next time, thanks."  Came out and I tried to move on to something else.

She seemed fine with dropping her "point".

So, I'm open for thoughts.  My first reaction is that I did pretty good by not explaining or in any way challenging her "point". 

I must admit that I was a bit surprised by the internal "discussion" I had and hope to get to the point where I'm a bit more automatic in deciding to not be bothered by things.

Thoughts?

FF

Note:  I'm very glad to be posting these type of questions/issues, rather than discussing her waking me up at 1am!   

[Notwendy]

It is good that you didn't pick this up as it likely would have gotten the ball rolling down the road of dog food and Bible verses.

The comment got to you though, otherwise, you would have just laughed it off- yeah I'm a chocolate guy or something, it didn't just roll off your back. It really was just an innate comment, but it pushed a button.

My mother does this- gets in these little digs somewhere. When it happens, I think "well this annoys me" but I don't react. I don't know if it is bait into drama, or just that she seems to take a negative spin on things. Like raining on your parade. You were happy, but hey she has to just get a little dig in there to alter that just a little.

Or someone digs as a way to engage you in drama because of the reinforcement of getting your attention. She may have felt you were focusing on your guy buddies and not her.

I think the key is, if your buttons are pushed, to say "well there's one of my buttons" they are yours after all. She can't push buttons if you don't have them. Then say, well I don't have to react to this, and just go on your way. It takes two to have drama - if you don't react, no drama.

[flourdust]

First of all, you did well.    Also, the fruit tray sounds delicious. Even though, as a guy, I'm not supposed to like chocolate dip. 

Your anecdote so neatly captures part of the stress of life with BPD -- the need to constantly, constantly be self-editing and on your guard. You have to subordinate yourself to someone who should be your partner and equal.

Consider the same conversation with someone else. Specifically, a very senior person. You're ex-military, as I recall, so imagine you're chatting about this fruit tray with a general, and the general makes the same comment about dip. You'd probably react the same way as you did to your wife. It may not be fair, but that's the power differential, and that's how it tends to play out.

These things bug us in our relationships with our partners, because we aren't supposed to have that power differential with them ... .and it isn't fair that we do.

[byfaith]

What I got was "Just so you know... .you took the wrong dip.  Women like chocolate... .guys don't."  Honestly she didn't say it mean.  I think she was honestly try to "teach" me something.

My wife is usually telling me what I am "doing wrong" and most of the time it is not in a "mean way". Did you learn anything grasshopper?

I didn't react.  I considering trying to explain my point of view... .or that guys like chocolate... .or... .  Then I ended my internal dialogue by determining to stay positive.  Something along the lines of "Ohhh... .I'll try to remember that for next time... .thanks."  Came out and I tried to move on to something else.

It seems like I live my whole life with this type of internal dialogue. I try to remain positive.

A few days ago my wife let me know she was displeased with the way I loaded the dishwasher. All the while she was AIS (ass in seat). She made it sound like it was no big deal but she was saying it front of my step son, making jokes about it etc. Well I decided to joke back so I took my left hand and turned it like a crank operating my right hand which was balled up in a fist and as the crank turned my middle finger began to come up slowly, then I cranked it back down. It brought some laughs.

I had to lighten the feeling I was feeling because I have heard her go on about how others load the dishwasher so badly, all the while she will let dishes pile in the sink.

But I give her credit, later in the evening she asked me if I thought she was mad over the dishwasher remarks I said 50/50. I told her I knew how mad she got at others for doing it "wrong" so she may have been really pissed at me. She kind of apologized without saying I'm sorry. 

[Notwendy]

I'd have considered saying " if you don't like the way I load the dishwasher then do it yourself" and walking out. Maybe this isn't the best advice, but that's humiliating, and in front of the stepson. It's a bit more than a snarky comment about chocolate.

My mother tends to do this. I recall her laughing at how I raked the leaves once, going on and on about it while she just stood there. Yet I know that woman has not picked up a rake ever. Or she'd send us to the store to get something and then go on about how we got the wrong brand, wrong kind of noodles in the soup, or whatever.

When deciding whether to respond or not, I think we need to have firm boundaries and decide is this something to ignore or is my boundary being violated? I would ignore a snarky dig, but not the dishwasher scene- but that is just me.  For instance, if you don't like how I load the dishwasher, then do it yourself, or speak to me in private. I don't think one needs to tolerate being criticized and humiliated while you are doing the job. Yet you also don't have to speak. I would consider walking out of the room when being spoken to like that. It may cause all H*ll to break loose at first, but it would set a boundary.

[byfaith]

My mother tends to do this. I recall her laughing at how I raked the leaves once, going on and on about it while she just stood there. Yet I know that woman has not picked up a rake ever. Or she'd send us to the store to get something and then go on about how we got the wrong brand, wrong kind of noodles in the soup, or whatever.

dishwasher isn't the only thing... .I was painting the storage building last week and I was told that I paint to slow or I hold the brush wrong etc. She hasn't touched a brush in over 4 years. It even goes down to if she is making something on the stove that she has a lid on and the lid has built up condensation and someone (myself) takes the lid off not according to spec she proceeds to let me know how I don't know how to remove a lid from a pot or a pan without dripping condensate over the top of the stove.

I will say she does compliment me on certain things. I built a raised garden bed last week and she told me how nice it was and that she appreciated it.

[formflier]

 

I had the same reaction as Notwendy.  

Perhaps right now I would hold off on dishwasher comment and try to address it in counseling.  But I would definitely have a much harder time letting it roll off my back than the chocolate thing.

Now, if she was slaving away at the sink while I was doing dishwasher I would be much more receptive to an idea or "criticism"

Step back and think big picture.  

Leadership and relationship principles are very similar.  

Praise in public and reprimand in private is a common leadership principle and also a good principle for marriage.  Whoever does the work of creating a meal gets talked about positively in my household by me.  Sometimes its the kids.  It gets worked into other life lessons.  S15 worked really hard to put together this meal for us.  You (usually D5) need to honor that work by trying the food and thanking him for it.  Usually followed by a comment about D5 making good choices to honor the  cook.

Full disclosure:  This is usually followed by D5 opening her mouth, pointing to an open, empty mouth and saying, "Look in here Daddy, there are no choices in my mouth, "  She is a stubborn one.

FF

[formflier]

I will say she does compliment me on certain things. I built a raised garden bed last week and she told me how nice it was and that she appreciated it.

My wife has these tendencies.

If you remember from her homework this week.  She is supposed to "quiet" her "judgmental and demanding" (or something like that, soul.

I would figure out a way to say something to her in a positive manner about this.

Also, when she approaches you and asks if you are bothered.  I would be more open and honest about your feelings. 

Likely you need to get rid of joking in your marriage, for now.

Naval Avaitors are a sarcastic, thick skinned, coarse, group of guys.  I used to bring that home.  Sarcasm doesn't work well, IMO, with women.  Add in BPDish stuff, not a good idea.

FF

[flourdust]

Agreed on the sarcasm. This is something I've learned to tone down quite a bit, because I'm naturally pretty sarcastic.

I can understand notwendy's visceral reaction to the criticism about the dishwasher. I've found myself becoming more prickly about criticism from my wife. I think it's because of the imbalance in the relationship. If we were both pulling our weight in the relationship, and criticism was infrequent, then I would take it seriously. That's what I've done in the past.

But if you're in a household where she doesn't contribute and is constantly critical, you reach a point where you just. don't. want. to. hear. it.

My wife was "jokingly" complaining that I left empty sweetener packets on the counter near the coffee machine, rather than taking them over to the trash. She wasn't wrong -- I do that occasionally. But her complaint annoyed me, because I'm the one who cleans the entire kitchen, all the time, as well as the rest of the house. She's the one who has left trash and food wrappers piled up in the bedroom for months, who leaves her semi-empty drink glasses all over the house, who ... .well, I could go on.

I think you have to earn the right to give criticism. Enough imbalance in a relationship, and that right is lost. And thus the resentment builds.

[formflier]

I think you have to earn the right to give criticism.

The best leaders were good followers.

The best "criticisers" (perhaps coaches is a better word) are those that have done it many times over and are intimately familiar with the task.  There is usually a spirit of helping here. 

We see these things missing from our pwBPD and react accordingly.

FF

[Notwendy]

I sometimes wonder if the criticism is sort of a projection of their own fears and insecurities. Like if they criticize us, we may not see the parts of them they are ashamed of.

I use my mother as an example because she is severe and really a classic example of BPD. She has a friend with similar issues as her and she will say things like " Friend is such a mess, how does her H put up with it" leaving me and sibs just speechless as how to respond. My mother was always a slim beauty but like many women in her age range has put on a few pounds. I think she looks good for her age, just like a grandma not a slim 20 year old. Yet she will get all over one of my sibling's cases for putting on a few pounds. She has not held a job since the one she had right after college before she married my father, yet she will be critical of one of us if we are not working in a position she thinks is good enough.

It almost feels like- seeing us doing something- either good- like raking leaves, or not so good- changing jobs, is somehow about her. Recall poor boundaries here. Me raking leaves may be interpreted as a criticism of her ( see you are not doing this) or something else may be triggering to her.

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, with my ex it was as if I was not allowed to have a positive emotional experience that did not depend on him in some way.

He always found a negative thing to insert on such occasions, or would somehow take credit and make it about him.

I was not allowed to be a separate individual is all it amounted to.  So any expression of success without him leaded to him raining on my parade.  He simply felt left out.