Ideas on how to talk with manipulated kids

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So the counselor is finally going to have a session where I get to talk with the teens about what happened with CPS, their dad, etc.  :)H can't be in this session because of an annual work deadline, but it may be good for me to share my perspective before they talk with their dad.  Anyway, the counselor mentioned that the one of the boys was telling his BPD mom that I was acting cold with him (he isn't supposed to be talking with her about our house--this just shows the habit).  It is interesting because I do not consider myself cold to him, but more cordial and distant.  It is also interesting because it is truly as if he has no clue what his actions did to our family-like "why would sanemom be cold?"  Or maybe he kind of has a feeling but doesn't want to deal with it... .I hope it is the latter.

The counselor has not discussed the results of the CPS investigation with them yet so this will be when they hear.  First, I am thinking about apologizing for my part in this (telling them some info that probably made them feel more in the middle--considering DH's feelings before theirs, whatever else I may have said or done that may have scared them too much, etc.).  Then I though about asking them how we got from point A (understanding dad had a bad medical reaction, supporting dad, loving on dad, begging me to explain to their mom that their dad was not an addict) to point B (demanding that dad go into a 90 day rehab, refusing to talk with dad, turning their back on him when he could have used their support, etc.) in 24 hours.  Maybe asking how they knew what treatment their dad needed more than his own doctor (since they were so sure he needed rehab), etc.  

Then talk about what happened with CPS--how we were presumed guilty of drug use, domestic violence, etc.; how my youngest daughter was at risk of being placed into a foster home initially because CPS believed the stories they were being told (and how that crossed a big line for me); how suddenly when the drug tests came out negative and CPS got more information, CPS realized the info they had was not true and had to rule it out.  They still have no idea that the drug tests were negative--I may bring them to the appointment.

But here is the thing--will the boys absorb this?  I really think that BPD mom has them so convinced that they were victims in all of this that they may completely not get what I am saying.  I don't think they will be able to absorb all of what I am saying anyway, but I don't want them so defensive that they hear nothing.

Ideas?

[sanemom]

So the counselor is finally going to have a session where I get to talk with the teens about what happened with CPS, their dad, etc.  :)H can't be in this session because of an annual work deadline, but it may be good for me to share my perspective before they talk with their dad.  Anyway, the counselor mentioned that the one of the boys was telling his BPD mom that I was acting cold with him (he isn't supposed to be talking with her about our house--this just shows the habit).  It is interesting because I do not consider myself cold to him, but more cordial and distant.  It is also interesting because it is truly as if he has no clue what his actions did to our family-like "why would sanemom be cold?"  Or maybe he kind of has a feeling but doesn't want to deal with it... .I hope it is the latter.

The counselor has not discussed the results of the CPS investigation with them yet so this will be when they hear.  First, I am thinking about apologizing for my part in this (telling them some info that probably made them feel more in the middle--considering DH's feelings before theirs, whatever else I may have said or done that may have scared them too much, etc.).  Then I though about asking them how we got from point A (understanding dad had a bad medical reaction, supporting dad, loving on dad, begging me to explain to their mom that their dad was not an addict) to point B (demanding that dad go into a 90 day rehab, refusing to talk with dad, turning their back on him when he could have used their support, etc.) in 24 hours.  Maybe asking how they knew what treatment their dad needed more than his own doctor (since they were so sure he needed rehab), etc.  

Then talk about what happened with CPS--how we were presumed guilty of drug use, domestic violence, etc.; how my youngest daughter was at risk of being placed into a foster home initially because CPS believed the stories they were being told (and how that crossed a big line for me); how suddenly when the drug tests came out negative and CPS got more information, CPS realized the info they had was not true and had to rule it out.  They still have no idea that the drug tests were negative--I may bring them to the appointment.

But here is the thing--will the boys absorb this?  I really think that BPD mom has them so convinced that they were victims in all of this that they may completely not get what I am saying.  I don't think they will be able to absorb all of what I am saying anyway, but I don't want them so defensive that they hear nothing.

Ideas?

[Turkish]

Remind us again how old these boys are?

That it seemed like your daughter might be taken away is a huge deal. I'd be triggered, and very angry as well.

Are you up on your validation skills, and JADE (not to do so)? They may not understand your fear of having your daughter taken away.

Still, they need to hear the truth. It's too bad that their dad can't be there.

Do you trust the counselor? This might be a work in progress, not solving things in one session. I like to think, "less is more." Maybe take part of it that you can in a 50m session, and build on it later.

[enlighten me]

Hi Sane

Its only natural to withdraw from them to protect your family. You may not even realise you've done it.

I think the boys need to see how they where wrong with the accusations that dad was a drug addict. I also think they need to know the potential consequences of their actions.

I would apologise for withdrawing from them but explain that it was because you where scared due to the potential damage that could have been done. I would also say that I realised that they love their mum but they are old enough to make up their own mind on things and they should let the facts speak for themselves and not be influenced by others opinions. I would also say that its not fair on them to be stuck in the middle of their mum and dad and they should ask their mum not to involve them in whats going on between them just like dad doesn't.

I would finish by saying that if they are willing to then you would like to draw a line under this and go back to having a normal relationship with them so that they can be happy and relaxed when staying with you.

[sanemom]

The boys are 15 and 17, and I was very well aware that I was withdrawing.  I have had a very hard time pretending nothing happened.  I am hurt by their sudden change and how they just had no problem throwing their dad under the bus although I am pretty sure that BPD mom had them convinced somehow that she was right and what they knew to be true was wrong.

I will brush up on the JADE for sure--that is a good idea.  I wanted to spend more time asking than telling because I thought that may naturally get me out of the JADE mode.

I remember a time when they were a bit younger (I think one was 12), and they went to an amusement park with BPD mom and the then-12 year old got stung by a bee.  BPD mom texted DH asking if he were allergic to bees... .no... .but she still had the boy convinced he was allergic somehow and got him to the point of hyperventilating so a medic at the park drove them in a golf cart to the park clinic.

I think that is what happened here in a way.  She gets so emotional about the situation that the kids jump right on the crazy golf cart with her, and they start believing her.

[sanemom]

The talk went well.  I pretty much did what I outlined in the first post--it was clear that the boys had no idea what CPS put us through.  I apologized for not being calmer in the storm, talked about how emotions are contagious and how their emotional state even had me going higher, and I should have been better about calming myself--this gave the counselor a jumping board to talk about how she thinks that their mom's emotions are contagious and gets them riled up.  At first they were saying they didn't tell CPS things, but the counselor called them on it.

When I brought up how we had the boys on camera going through our room, DSS15 said, "Awkward".  I let that sit and then they started talking about how they really thought he may be using the pain pills because of other people who they knew who had been using them.  I showed them the drug test results and said, "You know what they say about assumptions?" and they laughed.  I pointed out that it was like they were all in their emotional brain and had no rational thought.

They DID bring up alienated DSD and said what happened with her was "stupid" and it wasn't going to happen with them, and I said, "But that first week you were with your mom and ignoring your dad, your dad and I said, 'Here we go again'". 

One good theme that came up was that I told them that a lot of times we don't tell them things because we don't want them in the middle, but when we don't tell them things they think we are hiding things from them or lying.  I told them I am not sure what the answer was, how we should deal with it, and I gave them an example from years ago.

What I am worried about is that the counselor suggested they try to explain some of it to BPD mom, and I think that just gets them back into the drama.  And I also think that when BPD mom realizes that they are figuring things out, she will go even crazier.

The other thing that was interesting is that the counselor called DSS15 on what he said before I came in; basically talked about how he was saying he doesn't like me, my personality, etc., but when she observed how he cut up with me and joked with me in the room, she said, "That is really confusing to me how you can say you don't like her but that is clearly not the case."  And he said, "I confuse myself."  Poor kid--BM is the one who confuses him.

[truthbeknown]

Sanemom,

i struggle with the manipulations too! and like you said, there is always the risk of our honesty being used against us- ie they are so emeshed with BPD parent that they tell them everything.

sometimes I hedge my risks to find out how my kids feel first.  For example,  I am currently living out of state and i asked them how they would feel if they could come and stay with me for the summers since during the school year that is impossible.  My 14yo said he would not like that because he has no friends out where i am and then my younger child sort of went with what he was saying (because it made sense).  I did this because i wanted to get their view and basically see if it was something worth fighting for.  If they don't want to come and stay with me then why even turn it into a battle?

They may tell her (most likely) that i asked about this but it doesn't matter because now i know they don't want to do it anyway.  I could be wrong but I don't know what else do so i relate to the being worried about telling them things.

However, with that said, i have shifted to using metaphors from movies to help paint a picture about the message I am trying to get across.

For example, with the new Star Wars movie - I used the following example (please stop reading if you haven't seen the movie yet

When Ren was talking to the "supreme leader" (BPD parent in my view) about Hans Solo, the Supreme leader was using subconscious challenges to motivate Ren to kill Hans Solo- things like, "this will be your biggest test of your powers".    Ren says, "don't worry Supreme leader I will not fail you!" and the Supreme leader says, "we'll see".  

So i was just talking about how what the Supreme leader was doing was like Peer Pressure and how people can be manipulated by someone offering them a subconscious challenge like "we'll see or yeah right!".   Ren had a fear of being weak or weaker then Darth Vader and the supreme leader used the subconscious challenge to motivate him to get over this fear.  

So I basically just pointed this behavior out to my 14yo and asked him if he noticed that?  He said that he hadn't thought about that but next time he watches the movie he'll check it out.  I basically tried to tie it Peer Pressure and did not say anything about his mom.   I have used other examples in movies to help draw metaphors because my studies into the subconscious mind have shown me that metaphors are powerful examples without really having to describe something literally.   I obviously can't tell him that his BPD Mother is the Supreme Leader but unfortunately her behavior with the children is very much like that!  

hope this helps others.  It's still an experiment in progress but at least it's something