Conversation with my dad yesterday

[daughterandmom]

Hi all  

I have always wondered whether my dad was just plain oblivious to my mother's neglect of us as children, or afraid of her, or of changing the dynamic- I don't know what. I have always given him a pass, I suppose because he is easy going, passive and seems somewhat bewildered by "women things" and normal social behavior, although he gets along well with people. He's an engineer, and it seems like most people have this attitude with him, poor guy has this difficult wife, and he's a little odd, but basically a great guy.

Lately though I have had a harder time understanding how he could have let things be the way they were.

A little backstory- I was born 9 months after they married, my sibling two years later. When I was very young he was an engineer during the day and would come home for dinner and then go back to work on starting his own company until midnight. I clearly remember this period of time because the best part of the day was the hour or so he was home, but I wasn't really sure how old I was because I remember being very competent and having a lot of stress and responsibilities. So I asked him yesterday about how it was starting his own business. The conversation went like this:

So dad, what years was it that you worked at night getting your business off the ground. He tells me a span of three years that I would have been ages 4-7. I ask, Were you ever worried about mom's ability to care for us alone all that time? He say's no, not really. I gently say well, you do realize that there were long periods of time when she didn't get out of bed at all and needed us to care for her, right? And all the emotional meltdowns. And he says yeah, well she was always like that. So I say well, you know she didn't get up and make us dinner, or clean or do laundry or anything right?

He says what are you complaining about? You always had a roof over your head. You weren't going to starve and you were perfectly capable of going out in the kitchen and making dinner yourself.

I was four.

Nothing else to say.

[Kwamina]

He says what are you complaining about? You always had a roof over your head. You weren't going to starve and you were perfectly capable of going out in the kitchen and making dinner yourself.

I was four.

Nothing else to say.

Those are very difficult words to hear from your own father. It could be that he is in denial, possibly unable or unwilling to face the reality of the past and the role he played in it. Acknowledging the abuse and the fact that he didn't intervene would require him to change the way he views himself. Perhaps his thinking is that as long as he doesn't acknowledge the reality of the past, it didn't really happen. Unfortunately it did happen however and you were hurt as a result.

His response to you was very invalidating of your experience. You are starting to look at your father differently and realizing that his passivity actually in a way made him an active participant in the abuse that was taking place. I can imagine that this latest conversation with him only makes you reevaluate the role he played even more.

You were just a kid, only 4 years old. Your parents were the adults and the ones that needed to take responsibility. Whether they were unable or unwilling, they placed a huge burden on you.

You say you have always given your dad a pass, how would you describe your relationship with him? How do you see your relationship with your dad moving forward now that you are starting to look at him differently?

[Daisy23]

You are brave! I don't have the courage to speak to my Dad even though my therapist suggested I do. He's not that aware of feelings - he's a retired mechanic, very left brain. I wonder if your Dad doesn't have the emotional skill to see the situation through your eyes and also perhaps something inside of him needs to keep up denial - at least for now. It hurts, I know, because he is protecting himself when he should have been protecting you as a child.

I wonder, when you chose to bring it up with him, did you believe he had the emotional capacity to validate your experiences? I'm wondering, since you know him, whether his response surprises you or whether it kind of fits who you know him to be?

Last summer my Dad and I were just talking - he seemed to want to open up. He told me about times when my BPD mother would not respond to him - that he didn't know if she was blanking out and not hearing him or if she was doing it on purpose. She used to ignore me for hours when I was a child - if I displeased her (never knew how or why). I felt better knowing that he too had dealt with her behaviors, that it was't just me. I think now I could introduce a little of what she did to me but I still know that I kept my needs and feelings to myself all my childhood so I have essentially trained my Dad to be in the dark where I'm concerned.

Hope this helps.  

[daughterandmom]

Hi Kwamina- Thank you for your reply 

His response to you was very invalidating of your experience. You are starting to look at your father differently and realizing that his passivity actually in a way made him an active participant in the abuse that was taking place. I can imagine that this latest conversation with him only makes you reevaluate the role he played even more.

You know- I have only just started to understand what invalidating means. I have heard the term, but didn't really understand. Now I see it. Worse, I really feel it.

You say you have always given your dad a pass, how would you describe your relationship with him? How do you see your relationship with your dad moving forward now that you are starting to look at him differently?

My relationship with him has been good, partially because I have never held anything about my upbringing against him. I considered him an unwitting victim of the circumstances as much as myself. Weirdly, I suppose I felt like we were both children. I am starting to look at him differently, after gentle prodding from this board and my therapist reminding me that he was an adult and I was not, even though I always felt like one.

He's always been there for me in day to day ways as an adult- I was never able to drive, he's always been happy to take me to appointments, pick up stuff for me, do stuff with my kids. My parents live 4 miles down the road from me, and as my kids were growing up and even now we always include my dad on our vacations, he went with us when we went out to dinner, movies, amusement parks etc. I always felt like I needed to take care of him and make sure he was happy, and I also appreciated his help.

Moving forward- I don't know. I have been able to rationalize all these years that he is just oblivious and had no idea what was going on. That he was old school and left the child rearing to my mom.

It hurts much more to find out he was aware, but thought it was okay.

[daughterandmom]

Hi Daisy 

Thank you for taking the time to read and reply.

I am not so brave. I just asked him about it, I didn't confront anything. I didn't tell him it wasn't okay, I have never said that I suffered in any way. I just wanted to know if he was really aware, or in denial. He was aware, but has no realization that there was anything wrong with it. When I found that out there didn't seem to be a point in saying anything else.

I wonder, when you chose to bring it up with him, did you believe he had the emotional capacity to validate your experiences? I'm wondering, since you know him, whether his response surprises you or whether it kind of fits who you know him to be?

No, I don't suppose I thought he would validate my experiences. But I guess I wanted confirmation that he was truly oblivious. This I could forgive, because it fits who I think he is. Finding out that he has never second guessed how I grew up, and probably wouldn't change a thing hurt.

Funny thing is this conversation took place on the way home from my therapist. He takes me every week and has lunch while I am in there. He's never asked why I am going or why I have problems that require professional help.

Last summer my Dad and I were just talking - he seemed to want to open up. He told me about times when my BPD mother would not respond to him - that he didn't know if she was blanking out and not hearing him or if she was doing it on purpose. She used to ignore me for hours when I was a child - if I displeased her (never knew how or why). I felt better knowing that he too had dealt with her behaviors, that it was't just me. I think now I could introduce a little of what she did to me but I still know that I kept my needs and feelings to myself all my childhood so I have essentially trained my Dad to be in the dark where I'm concerned.

This sounds like you feel a bit protective and compassionate towards your dad too 

My dad would never talk about my mom that way- I don't think he feels like regular people would. Whenever I ask how's mom? he will say cranky like usual. Or I don't know I am just trying to stay out of her way. Or bad today- she was screaming about something or other when I left. But he always says these things with a chuckle.

[Daisy23]

I'm glad you posted this topic.I do feel protective and compassionate towards my Dad too. You're right. I'm realizing I have felt that way since I was a child and I know now that was me being like the parent back then.

it's hard for me to realize that it's the past and I can never get back the protection and compassion I wanted back then. I still look for it now - in the present - and I don't get much. I tell myself it is probably because I never asked for it - ever. But I need to let it go.

[Daisy23]

I just want to add that I think you were brave because I fear that my father wouldn't think anything was wrong with it either - and that's why I don't try to talk with him as much as I want to. You were willing to hear his answer. I'm not ready. But you've made me think. Thank you.

(I feel like everything you said about your relationship is like mine w/ my Dad.)

[Notwendy]

I wanted my father to validate me, but he too would not acknowledge my mothers condition and how she treated me. I too saw him as her victim. However learning about co-dependency helped me understand the bond between them, and this bond was stronger than his bond with me.

Ironically - him not wanting to deal with this with you could be his only way of protecting his relationship with you. You are just beginning to understand these dynamics. I was naive and jumped right into the drama triangle.

If and when- inevitably my mother caught wind that I said anything critical of her, I became the persecutor, she the victim, dad the rescuer. Although I wanted my father to validate me, to do that would be to invalidate her.

I think our dads love us but to align with us threatens the dynamics with our moms. You don't have to lie or pretend things are not as they are. That would be dishonest. But to push the issue with dad may cause more harm to your relationship with him. He probably knows that too . My dad would get angry if I brought this up and I backed off. If your dad does not talk about it- he has his reasons.