I'm wondering about relationships... friendships in particular.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

<My apologies this is so long and that I've been MIA.  I've had a lot on my mind both good and not so good.  Thanks for letting me share.>

I haven't been on the boards in a while, my apologies.  You have all been a huge source of support for me and I think sometimes I try to tell myself I don't need it.  We all lie to ourselves don't we.    silly me... .

Lately, I have been thinking a lot about relationships, friendships in particular.  I believe my best friend to have BPD.  I'm 100% sure and a therapist believes there is a good chance I am right.

My entire life I have had a really hard time connecting with people.  Generally, I am too much for most people... .I love too much, I go out of my way to help others, and I do kind things just because.  It may sound odd, but for some strange reason, that seems to freak people out.  The only way I can seem to have ongoing relationships is if I am some watered down version of myself who sees them only occasionally at pre-planned events where I only do what is expected and basically watch every word I say.  They never actually see or get to know me truly, even if they hear bits of my life story they don't ever get to know me.

Part of why I have been thinking about this lately is that I realized I am perpetuating this with my daughter's homeschool group.  Unfortunately, her schooling leaves us in a position where she doesn't have regular school friends so I have gone out of my way to make sure she has kids her age and on her peer level (which is generally above her age, as well as sometimes below).  The thing is this is truly for my daughter, I get almost nothing out of it. 

The group even has a mom's night out, which to most moms would sound like an awesome idea and so fun.  They wouldn't want to miss it.  For me, I go because we are part of the group for her to do field trips and activities with them, but she doesn't actually attend their classes (we can't afford more than one, and are thinking about signing her up for Spanish with them next year but all of them would bankrupt us as it's close to the cost of private school).  So if we do not attend as many functions as we can, whatever they are, moms night out included then we get left out.  Not on purpose, and not to be cruel but it's simply that if they don't see us they forget to include us.

So my dilemma is this... .here is a group I regularly see, surely I should be making friends right and left.  They are a super nice group of women, they all have children in similar education circumstances as my daughter so we have some of the same struggles, and they allow us to be a part of their group.  Here's the thing... .even after having been in the group since August, I do not feel like I have any FRIENDS, although I would call them "friends."

I know the distinction may seem confusing, but I have learned that to be truly happy in my life I need FRIENDS and not just "friends."  This is because "friends" are activity partners, sometimes we share advice and struggles (but nothing too deep), and they know my daughter's and husband's names.  Yet, FRIENDS are the people who hold you while you sob after something has gone terribly wrong, and the first people you want to call when something really good happens and you are bouncing off the wall.

At this moment in time, I don't have FRIENDS because BFF has gone off on her no-contact time without first letting me know as previously planned upon, which basically means she is just ignoring me.  She is my person, my one person... .  The one thing I have asked her to do is not to go no contact, or if she needs a break to tell me on the phone or in person so we can set an agreed upon time to reconnect that way we both know it's not forever.  She didn't do that... .

So the last few weeks I have been down, and up... .both times I would have loved to lean on my person and she's not there.  The thing is it sounds so simple to say, "Just get a new friend" or something similar, but FRIENDS seem to be nearly impossible for me to find.  It's like I am incapable of it... .It either happens or it doesn't and I cannot seem to figure out how to go about it on my own.  A huge part of this is that you could put me in a room with 100 people, for instance, the homeschool moms, and I'm lucky if I find 1 I connect with and there's 1 chance in a million they'll feel the same way.  I don't know why, and I kind of hate it, because it truly limits my friendships and happiness. 

What's the point of friends when you gain almost nothing from the time you spend together?  The advice and shared struggles I could have probably read on a blog and sometimes I'd rather be at home alone reading.  The outing, I could generally do without and all I can think is this dinner is going to cost a lot; money better spent elsewhere.  Only once have I truly enjoyed the experience and it's something I would go do again, but I take or leave them coming along for the ride.

The only answer I am left with is that it's for my daughter.  She gets the most out of it, getting to see kids regularly, attending events, and possibly in the future access to the language electives we cannot provide her otherwise.  Also, they just started their own farm complete with veggie/herb garden and animals.  (That perks me a up a bit... .I LOVE animals, , not so much gardening.)  The thing is the group also shares other things like religion, and bible study, and a somewhat conservative lifestyle.  The problem is look like I fit those things (which I hate saying as it's stereotyping), but I guess my appearance is deceiving because that's not who I am as a person.  So sometimes I wonder do they only accept and include me because I look like what they think I am, but if they look a little deeper and find out I'm not at all religious, I don't read the bible (have, just don't now), I don't attend church, and I am anything but conservative... .then do they just slowly stop including me and my daughter until we're on the outside looking in?

I think I sometimes hold out hope that I'll just stumble upon someone and they'll be perfect for me and we will skip off into the sunet holding hand and be FRIENDS forever, LOL... .  Honestly, this is what I thought with BFF.  Then a few months passed, things started to change, it was like she was a different person.  Cut to now almost 1.5 years since meeting and she's been out of my life on and off altogether for 6 months total.  Not exactly what I thought I was getting with a best friend.

I know some of you will ask then why do I put up with it?  Why do I even still call her my best friend and that's simple.  Because out of EVERYONE, she is... .the only other two people I would classify as such and the only others as close to me (if not closer) are my husband and daughter.  So they're there when things happen, and we share them, that's great... .but when I need a break and want to break outside of my family bubble, my world is very limited.  My fun time away from home is with BFF... .we have adventures, we have jokes, we enjoy one another's company.  That's great, except when it isn't like when she's not there... .

This week especially... .last week I was a bit down.  Then I had good news, I wanted to share, and I told myself "no point in calling her, she never answers... .not to mention she's supposed to call you back today, but she won't."  So I didn't and I happened to be emailing someone at the moment and I told her.  She gave me the pat on the back congrats that I was looking for, but it wasn't the same, because I wanted it from my BFF. 

I wanted to tell her and have her share my joy and excitement, but she wasn't there.  I wrote an email to explain how I've been feeling lately, that she has basically taught me not to call her... .I told her I hope she doesn't ever teach her boyfriend now (the most amazingly sweet guy who luckily doesn't get easily offended or overthink things) because that would not bode well for their relationship.  I told her I was down and wanted to talk to her, and I needed a break and it's hard because while we had been getting our girls together once a week she had stopped making time for me for about a month now.  I know people get busy, but it doesn't feel good to not even be able to get your best FRIEND on the phone for 5 minutes a week.  No response... .a few days later I wrote a followup realizing I may not have stressed that I wanted to talk to her and now I had some good news and I wanted to share.  Please could she call me... .no response.  I texted asking about an unrelated answer, no response.  I called today as I call every week on this day to set up the girls get together.  No answer... .

My news, my big exciting I wish I could call a FRIEND on the phone and have them answer and jump for joy with me... .*fingers crossed" we're buying a house!  (It's our fourth, no big time first-time homebuyers pat on the back needed... .)  I just really wanted her to be there to share in my joy.  Part of my email said that she misses so much she doesn't realize it... .bad things, good things, sad things... .  I have been the first to tell people they are wrong about us that I will not leave, be done with her, and walk away.  The thing is I still believe the first one.  I will not leave, it is not who I am as a person, I will always be there for her; even if she is not my FRIEND anymore at any given time because I would do that for anyone even my enemy.  I know what it feels like to NEED someone and would not deny anyone that.

I get it now though... .  even though I don't think I'd ever walk away, after this week... .of having something I REALLY REALLY wanted to share and having her be nowhere to be found... .I get it.  There will come a time when she's missed too much.  Just because she needs time or goes silent (which I don't have a HUGE problem with only when she doesn't give me a heads up first), doesn't mean that life stops moving forward.  So in that time, she puts her focus elsewhere (now her boyfriend and work, and daughter I'd hope), those around her move forward and she misses out.  I know that lots of people would say that's their loss for missing out, and I thought that too, but I never realized it's also a HUGE loss for me because I don't have that person to call and that FRIEND to jump for joy with. 

The most frustrating thing is that I try... .sometimes I tell myself I'm not, but when I look at my life I get out there I talk I try to engage and build rapport and it never gets beyond "friends" or acquaintances.  I just can't find anyone who fits the bill, and now I end up terrified if someone even comes close there must be a reason.  It seems maybe I can only feel their love, and connect with them because they have traits of something out of the ordinary, something less than healthy that will rear it's ugly head and then I'll have another FRIEND.  Who may not be there... .is that worth it?

I get it now... .that one day all the times she hasn't been there may add up.  What if she decides to take a "break" the week my daughter graduates or falls in love, or gets dumped or wants to go prom dress shopping, or wedding dress shopping or the day my husband who is a police officer god forbid (no I am not religious but I still use the phrase) take a bullet.  I work so hard to keep up "friendships" so that I will have someone to call to watch my daughter, help us in a time of need, but they'll be like a ghost passing by not really seeing me and understanding all that I am.  FRIENDS do that for me, not "friends" and I worry that I will never truly have any.

<If you get to the end... .thanks for reading.>

[DearBFF]

<My apologies this is so long and that I've been MIA.  I've had a lot on my mind both good and not so good.  Thanks for letting me share.>

I haven't been on the boards in a while, my apologies.  You have all been a huge source of support for me and I think sometimes I try to tell myself I don't need it.  We all lie to ourselves don't we.    silly me... .

Lately, I have been thinking a lot about relationships, friendships in particular.  I believe my best friend to have BPD.  I'm 100% sure and a therapist believes there is a good chance I am right.

My entire life I have had a really hard time connecting with people.  Generally, I am too much for most people... .I love too much, I go out of my way to help others, and I do kind things just because.  It may sound odd, but for some strange reason, that seems to freak people out.  The only way I can seem to have ongoing relationships is if I am some watered down version of myself who sees them only occasionally at pre-planned events where I only do what is expected and basically watch every word I say.  They never actually see or get to know me truly, even if they hear bits of my life story they don't ever get to know me.

Part of why I have been thinking about this lately is that I realized I am perpetuating this with my daughter's homeschool group.  Unfortunately, her schooling leaves us in a position where she doesn't have regular school friends so I have gone out of my way to make sure she has kids her age and on her peer level (which is generally above her age, as well as sometimes below).  The thing is this is truly for my daughter, I get almost nothing out of it. 

The group even has a mom's night out, which to most moms would sound like an awesome idea and so fun.  They wouldn't want to miss it.  For me, I go because we are part of the group for her to do field trips and activities with them, but she doesn't actually attend their classes (we can't afford more than one, and are thinking about signing her up for Spanish with them next year but all of them would bankrupt us as it's close to the cost of private school).  So if we do not attend as many functions as we can, whatever they are, moms night out included then we get left out.  Not on purpose, and not to be cruel but it's simply that if they don't see us they forget to include us.

So my dilemma is this... .here is a group I regularly see, surely I should be making friends right and left.  They are a super nice group of women, they all have children in similar education circumstances as my daughter so we have some of the same struggles, and they allow us to be a part of their group.  Here's the thing... .even after having been in the group since August, I do not feel like I have any FRIENDS, although I would call them "friends."

I know the distinction may seem confusing, but I have learned that to be truly happy in my life I need FRIENDS and not just "friends."  This is because "friends" are activity partners, sometimes we share advice and struggles (but nothing too deep), and they know my daughter's and husband's names.  Yet, FRIENDS are the people who hold you while you sob after something has gone terribly wrong, and the first people you want to call when something really good happens and you are bouncing off the wall.

At this moment in time, I don't have FRIENDS because BFF has gone off on her no-contact time without first letting me know as previously planned upon, which basically means she is just ignoring me.  She is my person, my one person... .  The one thing I have asked her to do is not to go no contact, or if she needs a break to tell me on the phone or in person so we can set an agreed upon time to reconnect that way we both know it's not forever.  She didn't do that... .

So the last few weeks I have been down, and up... .both times I would have loved to lean on my person and she's not there.  The thing is it sounds so simple to say, "Just get a new friend" or something similar, but FRIENDS seem to be nearly impossible for me to find.  It's like I am incapable of it... .It either happens or it doesn't and I cannot seem to figure out how to go about it on my own.  A huge part of this is that you could put me in a room with 100 people, for instance, the homeschool moms, and I'm lucky if I find 1 I connect with and there's 1 chance in a million they'll feel the same way.  I don't know why, and I kind of hate it, because it truly limits my friendships and happiness. 

What's the point of friends when you gain almost nothing from the time you spend together?  The advice and shared struggles I could have probably read on a blog and sometimes I'd rather be at home alone reading.  The outing, I could generally do without and all I can think is this dinner is going to cost a lot; money better spent elsewhere.  Only once have I truly enjoyed the experience and it's something I would go do again, but I take or leave them coming along for the ride.

The only answer I am left with is that it's for my daughter.  She gets the most out of it, getting to see kids regularly, attending events, and possibly in the future access to the language electives we cannot provide her otherwise.  Also, they just started their own farm complete with veggie/herb garden and animals.  (That perks me a up a bit... .I LOVE animals, , not so much gardening.)  The thing is the group also shares other things like religion, and bible study, and a somewhat conservative lifestyle.  The problem is look like I fit those things (which I hate saying as it's stereotyping), but I guess my appearance is deceiving because that's not who I am as a person.  So sometimes I wonder do they only accept and include me because I look like what they think I am, but if they look a little deeper and find out I'm not at all religious, I don't read the bible (have, just don't now), I don't attend church, and I am anything but conservative... .then do they just slowly stop including me and my daughter until we're on the outside looking in?

I think I sometimes hold out hope that I'll just stumble upon someone and they'll be perfect for me and we will skip off into the sunet holding hand and be FRIENDS forever, LOL... .  Honestly, this is what I thought with BFF.  Then a few months passed, things started to change, it was like she was a different person.  Cut to now almost 1.5 years since meeting and she's been out of my life on and off altogether for 6 months total.  Not exactly what I thought I was getting with a best friend.

I know some of you will ask then why do I put up with it?  Why do I even still call her my best friend and that's simple.  Because out of EVERYONE, she is... .the only other two people I would classify as such and the only others as close to me (if not closer) are my husband and daughter.  So they're there when things happen, and we share them, that's great... .but when I need a break and want to break outside of my family bubble, my world is very limited.  My fun time away from home is with BFF... .we have adventures, we have jokes, we enjoy one another's company.  That's great, except when it isn't like when she's not there... .

This week especially... .last week I was a bit down.  Then I had good news, I wanted to share, and I told myself "no point in calling her, she never answers... .not to mention she's supposed to call you back today, but she won't."  So I didn't and I happened to be emailing someone at the moment and I told her.  She gave me the pat on the back congrats that I was looking for, but it wasn't the same, because I wanted it from my BFF. 

I wanted to tell her and have her share my joy and excitement, but she wasn't there.  I wrote an email to explain how I've been feeling lately, that she has basically taught me not to call her... .I told her I hope she doesn't ever teach her boyfriend now (the most amazingly sweet guy who luckily doesn't get easily offended or overthink things) because that would not bode well for their relationship.  I told her I was down and wanted to talk to her, and I needed a break and it's hard because while we had been getting our girls together once a week she had stopped making time for me for about a month now.  I know people get busy, but it doesn't feel good to not even be able to get your best FRIEND on the phone for 5 minutes a week.  No response... .a few days later I wrote a followup realizing I may not have stressed that I wanted to talk to her and now I had some good news and I wanted to share.  Please could she call me... .no response.  I texted asking about an unrelated answer, no response.  I called today as I call every week on this day to set up the girls get together.  No answer... .

My news, my big exciting I wish I could call a FRIEND on the phone and have them answer and jump for joy with me... .*fingers crossed" we're buying a house!  (It's our fourth, no big time first-time homebuyers pat on the back needed... .)  I just really wanted her to be there to share in my joy.  Part of my email said that she misses so much she doesn't realize it... .bad things, good things, sad things... .  I have been the first to tell people they are wrong about us that I will not leave, be done with her, and walk away.  The thing is I still believe the first one.  I will not leave, it is not who I am as a person, I will always be there for her; even if she is not my FRIEND anymore at any given time because I would do that for anyone even my enemy.  I know what it feels like to NEED someone and would not deny anyone that.

I get it now though... .  even though I don't think I'd ever walk away, after this week... .of having something I REALLY REALLY wanted to share and having her be nowhere to be found... .I get it.  There will come a time when she's missed too much.  Just because she needs time or goes silent (which I don't have a HUGE problem with only when she doesn't give me a heads up first), doesn't mean that life stops moving forward.  So in that time, she puts her focus elsewhere (now her boyfriend and work, and daughter I'd hope), those around her move forward and she misses out.  I know that lots of people would say that's their loss for missing out, and I thought that too, but I never realized it's also a HUGE loss for me because I don't have that person to call and that FRIEND to jump for joy with. 

The most frustrating thing is that I try... .sometimes I tell myself I'm not, but when I look at my life I get out there I talk I try to engage and build rapport and it never gets beyond "friends" or acquaintances.  I just can't find anyone who fits the bill, and now I end up terrified if someone even comes close there must be a reason.  It seems maybe I can only feel their love, and connect with them because they have traits of something out of the ordinary, something less than healthy that will rear it's ugly head and then I'll have another FRIEND.  Who may not be there... .is that worth it?

I get it now... .that one day all the times she hasn't been there may add up.  What if she decides to take a "break" the week my daughter graduates or falls in love, or gets dumped or wants to go prom dress shopping, or wedding dress shopping or the day my husband who is a police officer god forbid (no I am not religious but I still use the phrase) take a bullet.  I work so hard to keep up "friendships" so that I will have someone to call to watch my daughter, help us in a time of need, but they'll be like a ghost passing by not really seeing me and understanding all that I am.  FRIENDS do that for me, not "friends" and I worry that I will never truly have any.

<If you get to the end... .thanks for reading.>

[Notwendy]

I think this is something that would be good to explore with a T. I know that my FOO issues have made it hard to connect with people. I don't have a lot of very close friends. I do think that to have one close friend who is your main person is probably asking too much of a friend. I also think it is good to consider boundaries. If we have too poor boundaries and we seek enmeshment with a friend, this could be a turn off for people who are emotionally healthy. You are correct that if we seek out enmeshment, we could attract disordered people. Relationships do not have to be romantic to be disordered.

I think that when we have poor boundaries, we can, in a way repel people. This doesn't just mean weak ones. Sometimes people can have both weak boundaries and be very defensive. If our boundaries repel people with healthy boundaries then the people we are likely to pair up with would have unhealthy ones.

[Grey Kitty]

It is very long... .and I like to summarize things.

1. You want to share stuff with a friend, and your uBPD BFF has you shut out right now, so you can't.

 That sucks. It really does. You know that is how she is, and I think you've been here long enough to know what you can do about it... .or can start another topic.

2. You don't have other friends that you are that close to.

First off, a pwBPD does yank you in deeper into intimacy and friendship/relationship far faster than a healthy person does. It takes a very special and intense shared experience, or a lot of time and energy to build a deep friendship with somebody who has healthier boundaries.

This week especially... .last week I was a bit down.  Then I had good news, I wanted to share, and I told myself "no point in calling her, she never answers... .not to mention she's supposed to call you back today, but she won't."  So I didn't and I happened to be emailing someone at the moment and I told her.  She gave me the pat on the back congrats that I was looking for, but it wasn't the same, because I wanted it from my BFF. 

This sounds like one brick you applied toward building a better friendship with this person. It will take more to get there.

You can do things to build intimacy and friendship with the people you like best, even if they aren't all that close. Even if you aren't going to do all the work, you can do the vulnerable part and invite friends (or potential friends) to do things with you.

3. You say you can't find and make friends. Either you are looking in the wrong place (possible!) or you are doing something that pushes people away, and you can change it. I'd second Notwendy's suggestion of individual T.

4. I've got a favorite essay on friends and friendships. Perhaps you will find something in it that helps you.

www.waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/10-types-odd-friendships-youre-probably-part.html

[DearBFF]

 , Notwendy! Thank you for the response

I think this is something that would be good to explore with a T.

I have often wondered if this would be helpful... .I just feel like I'm not like everyone else like I am weird.  Either people think I'm great and only know me casually, I try to get to know them better and they run for the hills, and then there is BFF... .she gets to know me, thinks I'm great and I am the only person who can deal with is the short answer.  I went to a T to discuss BFF and it was quite helpful, but I don't know if going regularly would help.  I just feel like I would get a lot of make more friends and meet people advice.  The thing is I have people, I just have such a hard time feeling connected.

I know that my FOO issues have made it hard to connect with people.

Am I correct in "FOO issues" meaning Family of Origin?  If yes... .I was adopted as a baby, yet I never developed that attachment with my adoptive parents.  My father was verbally and emotionally abusive so that basically shot any relationship with him, and my mother didn't do the best job of protecting me (to be fair she grew up in a similar household so it was what she was used to).  This has been an ongoing problem for me as I never feel that connection... .I've felt close to people, like one old friend I got in touch with tonight who lives out of state and thank goodness for her I thought my head was supposed to explode.  She thought I wanted too much at the time and cut off communication, but I reached out after finding her on facebook and she has since apologized saying she missed our friendship.  I think it happens this way a lot that a potential friend isn't in the right place to accept someone who isn't detached I guess I would call it.  Even my hubby I know he loves me but I have almost never FELT it.  With BFF I don't know if it's because her emotions are off the charts but it is literally the first time EVER I felt love/connection.  It sucks!  The one person I finally get to experience that with ends up probably being BPD and I cannot have a "normal" relationship with her.  It is frustrating... .

I do think that to have one close friend who is your main person is probably asking too much of a friend.

I completely agree... .I have no luck finding/making/keeping friends.  My daughter's homeschool group moms... .I try, I talk, I try to share (what I can), and I just still feel on the outside.  I don't know how to become part of a group partially because I don't really like groups.  If it's a group I can actually be myself in front of great, but I have none.  I would love to have a very small group of close friends, just having her, BFF the one friend, is so not what I want it's just where I find myself.  I haven't had a group of friends I felt I fit with since college 2002... .I got a boyfriend and the short version is that they ditched me.  Boyfriend is now hubby and is basically a loner who spends most of his downtime on his computer.  We've lived here 2 years and he made one friend he's hung out with 2 times (his one friend got a girlfriend and is now always busy).  I make "friends" for munchkin so she has kiddos and adults other than us to socialize with, and it's great.  I just don't feel at home there.  The thing is she is just like me.  She even made a comment I swear I made to my adoptive mom (not knowing I was adopted at the time)... ."Why did I come out alone?  I was not in there alone, there were two of me.  Why am I alone?"  Yep... .I sobbed after she said that to me as I've felt alone my whole life and I do not want that for my kid.

I also think it is good to consider boundaries. If we have too poor boundaries and we seek enmeshment with a friend, this could be a turn off for people who are emotionally healthy. You are correct that if we seek out enmeshment, we could attract disordered people. Relationships do not have to be romantic to be disordered.

The think I have fine boundaries with "friends" because I feel no attachment/connection/etc.  I know the lines get blurred when I feel a connection and honestly, sometimes it's fine when they blur and I enjoy a quick connection on a deeper level with a stranger sometimes.  For instance, a woman saw me reading a book (it was on BPD/DBT) and asked me about it.  We had a lovely talk for about 20 minutes and I felt hugely connected to her, but her kids pulled her away and that was that.  The thing is I seem to require that deeper connection more often than not, and deeper conversation.  Sitting around with women groaning about kids/husbands just bores me.  I think gosh I could be at home reading a book/etc.


If I may ask... .Did you discuss connection with a T?  

How did it go and what did they recommend for you to do about it?

Where have you met your close friends, and how?

Thank you so much Notwendy!

[DearBFF]

 , thanks so much Grey Kitty!  I too love summarizing, I am just not very good at it!  (plus I type 100wpm and forget people don't necessarily read as fast or want to read as much)

First off, a pwBPD does yank you in deeper into intimacy and friendship/relationship far faster than a healthy person does. It takes a very special and intense shared experience, or a lot of time and energy to build a deep friendship with somebody who has healthier boundaries.

I seem to know immediately if there is a chance of connecting with someone, I have no idea why, but it's almost instant.  There is something about them I like, they respond to me in a way no one has, they show interest, they care about what I have to say, and respect it even if I disagree.  I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but I am having very much trouble finding that.  It seems so simple... .  I can hang out with those healthier people, but I get nothing out of it and end up feeling like it's just another thing to schedule that takes up time during which I could be doing something by myself and having way more fun (and feeling more fulfilled and recharged).

You can do things to build intimacy and friendship with the people you like best, even if they aren't all that close. Even if you aren't going to do all the work, you can do the vulnerable part and invite friends (or potential friends) to do things with you.

The idea of this terrifies me!  I mean it, like 100% petrified.  I am pretty sure I have social anxiety, but I just ignore it.  When I have to go to an event where I don't know people I literally do not want to go, I'm never like oh this sounds fun.  If I know one person I'm usually ok, if I know a few I'm completely fine.  When I know no one though I just feel icky inside.  The odd thing is that when it's a complete stranger (usually one is better than a few as they talk together and then I have to butt in), I feel much better than going to a group function.  I can strike up a conversation with a complete stranger and get enjoyment/fulfillment out of it much better than a regular acquaintance.  I have no idea why that is, it's frustrating... .

I'd second Notwendy's suggestion of individual T.

I'm going to my primary tomorrow... .I think I may have to ask her about it.  I don't know if it will help but I don't like feeling down and stressed out and friendless.  It's no fun at all.


Thank you so very much, Grey Kitty!  I really appreciate it.  I was just telling hubby... .see the people on the message boards I like them.  I wish I just knew them in real life because we'd probably get along fine.  But alas no... .:-(

I will check out your article and thanks again!

[DearBFF]

UPDATE: (short and sweet Grey Kitty    )

So this happened... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=291306.0;topicseen


I wanted to mention also someone once told me that I experience love differently than most people.  She is a very intuitive woman and I never even mentioned my issues to her at all.  Unfortunately, she said that the closest thing I will ever find to the love I give in this life would be animals.  Oddly enough when she said it I completely agreed... .I LOVE animals, always have and other than BFF it's the only other time I feel LOVED.  I should add to that list my munchkin as she showers me with love as well.  I feel that hubby loves me but I almost never FEEL it.  It's as if that part of me is broken, like listening to the radio but the ear facing it is deaf so I have to turn it to 11 to hear.  That's what it feels like to me.  Regular people love, normal love, it's not loud enough for me.

Not sure if that makes sense, but it's the best way I can describe it.

[Notwendy]

The connection with someone with BPD can feel strong because of the odd boundaries and how they idealize and become intimate ( and in the case of your friend, I don't mean sexual) by sharing their deep feelings and mirroring ours. I think those of us with FOO ( family of origin) issues do feel a draw to this kind of connection. But as we work on our co-dependency issues, this type of thing can start to feel icky.

As to having friends, it is an interesting question because I have had friends at some times in my life and others, feel I had few friends and was seeking them. Yet, I think in a way, this seeking was a result of being co-dependent and having poor boundaries. Having done much work on that, it seems I seek this less and feel more content to spend time alone. However, I like to have meaningful- to me- activities in my life and enjoy the company of others at work, kids school functions- I guess a way of saying this is that I enjoy working, or an activity -such as an outing with the kids, in the company of others.

I have experienced losing friendships and it is hard, but I also realize that friends can move on. One close friend got engrossed in her career and no longer had time for me. I recognized that people change. I also lost some friends due to their forming a tight clique with someone who I think had BPD ( others did too) and they excluded their other friends. I can identify with your feelings of not being attached to your parents. I am not attached to my mother, and this can leave us vulnerable to attachment to others. But this kind of attachment to a friend with BPD may not be an emotionally healthy one. Friendships are not a substitute for maternal attachment. I think this is something we need to work out in T,

Just like we choose our romantic partners, we choose friends who match us emotionally in some way. If we grow and change emotionally, the relationships may not match. Since friendships are less tightly bonded than marriages, friendships can drift apart, but instead of seeing this as a bad thing, I now see it as a natural result of personal growth.

Yes, I have discussed the difficulty in attachment with my T, but as part of my FOO issues as a whole. I think that- working on FOO issues - has been helpful to me in relating to everyone.

I think it is a blessing if people can have lifelong friends, but I also feel OK with the friends I have as well as the understanding that sometimes people change and move on.

[Grey Kitty]

I seem to know immediately if there is a chance of connecting with someone, I have no idea why, but it's almost instant.  There is something about them I like, they respond to me in a way no one has, they show interest, they care about what I have to say, and respect it even if I disagree.  I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but I am having very much trouble finding that.

I meet new people, and with some of them I find a spark of interest or personal chemistry [different from romantic/sexual chemistry] that isn't easy to describe. Sometimes I'm able to get to know them and become friends. That you don't find this most of the time isn't a big surprise. Nobody finds it with everybody!

What you describe is setting a fairly low standard--somebody who shows you interest and respect. Your description of your FOO does make it clear that being treated that way by people close to you is better than much of what your life has looked like. So this may take some getting used to.

You can do things to build intimacy and friendship with the people you like best, even if they aren't all that close. Even if you aren't going to do all the work, you can do the vulnerable part and invite friends (or potential friends) to do things with you.

The idea of this terrifies me!  I mean it, like 100% petrified.  I am pretty sure I have social anxiety, but I just ignore it.  When I have to go to an event where I don't know people I literally do not want to go, I'm never like oh this sounds fun.  If I know one person I'm usually ok, if I know a few I'm completely fine.  When I know no one though I just feel icky inside.  The odd thing is that when it's a complete stranger (usually one is better than a few as they talk together and then I have to butt in), I feel much better than going to a group function.  I can strike up a conversation with a complete stranger and get enjoyment/fulfillment out of it much better than a regular acquaintance.  I have no idea why that is, it's frustrating... .

I have a bit of social anxiety/awkwardness myself. It was really bad when I was a kid/teen, and I started doing better in college, and over the following decades, I've continued to improve--both in terms of managing those feelings and having them become less of an issue. I don't know if it will help you, but here's a bit about how I 'tick' some coping/management ideas I'd try.

I'm incredibly comfortable forming relationships/friendships online. I started doing this as a socially awkward teen nerd, in the days before the internet. I've always been comfortable that way. Perhaps 50% of my close relationships today are people I met online. If I don't at least end up talking on the phone, it usually stays at or just past the acquaintance level. People I talk to can become deeper relationships, and I do meet some face to face.

In person, I do far better with one other person, or perhaps 2-3 people, than I do in larger groups. Especially groups of people I don't know. That is a place where my shyness/awkwardness shows up the most still.

One tip somebody gave me for those group situations is to look for the other person who seems quiet/shy/outside, and talk to them instead of trying to worm your way in with the person at the center. Often the other shy person will be incredibly grateful and relieved to have somebody to talk to one-on-one instead of being on the outside looking in. I've done it both accidentally and intentionally, and with great results!

Back to what you said about being terrified about inviting somebody to do something with you... .here's something I would suggest for you. Think about this group of homeschool moms. Pick one of them, one who seems interesting or fun, or just seems to be living her life in a way that you respect and admire.

Then since you don't do well in group situations, invite her to coffee or lunch sometime, just the two of you, or more likely, just the two of you and your respective kids, but in a way that the two of you can have a bit of adult conversation and get to know her better.

Would doing it that way sound terrifying?

Or on the other hand, is there not a one of these moms with whom you feel enough of a spark to be interested in this? That is possible too.

[DearBFF]

The connection with someone with BPD can feel strong because of the odd boundaries and how they idealize and become intimate ( and in the case of your friend, I don't mean sexual) by sharing their deep feelings and mirroring ours. I think those of us with FOO ( family of origin) issues do feel a draw to this kind of connection. But as we work on our co-dependency issues, this type of thing can start to feel icky.

I know most people would say I a bit too much and probably have weaker boundaries than most with close friends, but that's just it with close friends.  In the homeschool mom group for instance, I have totally ok boundaries, and even the ones I have had with close friends are simple things like we talk about EVERYTHING and are uninhibited around one another, and we are super affectionate (which is simply a HUGE part of my personality).  Generally, if someone wants to have the superficial conversation, I am generally just bored.  I want to hear about their life, their hopes, and their dreams.  Not necessarily up front, but just in general.  I know how it's not how most people get to know each other, but it works for me as it's the only way I walk away from a conversation feeling fulfilled instead of feeling like it is a chore.

I read a codependency book, actually, a few and it didn't sound like me at all at this point in time.  I would say the last time it did was at the beginning of my friendship with BFF.  Before that I am unsure maybe growing up I guess with friends in school?  Even when I saw the therapist she mentioned this, but then as I spoke about conversations I had with BFF I'd explain this felt bad so in the future I did this instead, her comments were, "That's great!  It sounds like you learned a lot about what you want and need and are making great progress so that you can have the relationship be as much on your terms as possible."  Also, one main issue for me was that because I have so few friends it upset me when BFF would be possessive over me or people she introduced me to.  If I meet someone and we have great conversation I want to get to know them more, and they would even sometimes tell me to keep in touch.  So I would add them on facebook for instance and next thing I know BFF would explode over it!  I was even invited to a birthday party before BFF ditched me for 3 months and she was furious when she heard I decided to go.  The thing is my invitation wasn't about her, it was about my desire to have a friendship with the mom who invited me.  This sounds exactly like the exlusion you were mentioning about your friends that became strongly attached to a person you believe BPD.

There have also been friends that BFF falls out with or just simply stops keeping up with and at first, I would feel I needed to avoid them to please her or not upset her.  Then I went no, wait a minute, that's not my job or responsibility.  If I like them, and they ask me to hang out next time I am going.  I explained to the therapist I told BFF, "Look my relationships with people are separate than yours.  I don't have to stop being friends with someone because you do, or not talk to someone because you don't want me to.  I enjoy their company and conversation and they seem to enjoy mine, it has nothing to do with you."  The therapist said, "Wow, that is completely not codependent!  Good job!"  So while I get how this is an issue for those of us with complicated and less than ideal FOO, I seem to be in a pretty good place with it in general.

As for my boundaries I like them kind of mucky... .I don't seem to get anything out of vanilla conversation and no intimacy.  Intimate friendship is the only thing that feeds my soul, allows me to relax, and just be myself.  Without the intimacy most people would probably call icky, it just feels like another thing on my todo list which I just find draining.  Could I have more "friends" if I liked vanilla conversation and no intimacy?  SURE!  Would I be happy, nope... .  I like feeling like they are family, so they know the depths of your soul and all of your faults yet they choose to love you anyway.

Having done much work on that, it seems I seek this less and feel more content to spend time alone.]

Part of my problem is that when I interact with the vanilla people (no offense to people who like vanilla, ), but say the baseline emotional people who are all about pleasantries and discussing the weather all I want to do is be at home by myself (or with hubby and munchkin) doing something I enjoy.  Reading a book, watching a show or youtube video that leaves me in stitches... .etc.  However, at this point in my life and my daughter's I do this for her, a bit for me too as I love having access to the farm, learning about gardening and seeing her happy with friends.  So I see myself doing this more for my daughter.

My problem truly comes in when I am stressed out... .then I need a break and my go to fun things just don't do it for me.  I literally need a time out and a few hours or sleepover with a close/intimate friend is one of the only things that helps me stamp this out.  Sure it will pass on its own in time, but if I need a quick charge battery refill I know a hangout night with BFF (a good night, without a huge BPD flair up as I can handle the little ones) fixes me right up and I need to do less work to feel better.  Otherwise, I can do something that is a normal pick me up... .  Yesterday, for instance, I drove down to deliver flowers to BFF so I got a good hour and a half in the car by myself (a rarity) listening to my favorite music.  I was not stressed for the first time in weeks, unfortunately, that kind of pick me up is short lived. 

The best I can describe it is that when I walk in the door at home and one thing goes wrong it's like I reset to before I left and it's like that bliss in the car with my music never happened.  After a close friend hangout, I come home like a new person!  Cheery and relaxed, my stress melted away, and I am ready to tackle the next challenge head on.  It is frustrating, but it's that so stressed out I cannot do one more thing, and need a break point, that is when I want someone to lean on... .hubby is great, but I need someone outside the house and that way if I need to vent about him I can, .  Plus, he LOVES getting back a brand new wife and mom who isn't on her last nerve.  ... .

I have noticed recently the more I talk to him that BFF's boyfriend is a great example of this kind of person.  We do not discuss BFF unless she asks us to... .she had trouble talking to him a few weeks back and asked me to help her.  He called me and we talked for almost an hour so that he would know how best to get her talking and keep her talking, so that they could work through what they needed.  She was too terrified to do it herself, she needed a push and I told him how he can give it to her so she will open up more.  So he's a no BS kind of guy, which I LOVE.  He's honest and very laid back, so he doesn't get easily offended.  I called him last week to tell him a few things and he thanked me for the conversation and even asked how my week was going.  I tripped over my tongue realizing I couldn't remember the last time someone asked me that, and not just that he waited to hear my answer.  Then responded with excitement and my good news and regret that I had been down earlier in the week.  Honestly, I need to figure out what is wrong with him, LOL.  For instance though I could go out and have lunch/dinner with someone like him and probably come back feeling completely refreshed.  You would think open, honest, laid back, caring people would be the majority but I can't seem to find them!

BFF has told me that she knows this is the guy for her because she hasn't pushed me away from "them" and we are still "us" whether he is there or not.  We had a hangout night all 3 of us and it was fun.  She cooked the two of us dinner while he and I shared some chit chat on the couch.  Then we all ate and watched a movie together.  By the end of the night BFF was passed out asleep with her head on his lap, as he and I expected, and I was right next to them as she had draped her legs over me before falling asleep.  We had a bit more chit chat before waking her up and never was there weirdness or vanilla conversation.  That's part of how I know he's a great guy for her as this has never happened before, that she includes me in the relationship and we can all be friends.  As for talking to him by the way, she has said she thinks it's great!  Again that baffles me, but that's wonderful!

Before the warnings come rolling in I can see how some would say this could go badly, so do I, but I keep any discussion with him totally about me or just offer him advice about the kiddos for instance or girls/women in general.  So other than the one conversation she asked us to have about her, we're friends outside of her/them.  He even used that word and called me his friend, and I was touched.  I can't wait until we can all go out with both girls and my hubby (he had a schedule where he worked late so he couldn't join us most of the time).

Friendships are not a substitute for maternal attachment. I think this is something we need to work out in T,

I have never heard this before... .I did not attach to either adoptive mom or dad, but somehow deep down I always felt there was someone out there.  When I found my birthmom we completely clicked.  Since day one she has always been accepting of all of me, pre-empts motherly advice with "I have to say this because I am your mom, but you are more than welcome to totally ignore it because that's your choice" and I just connect with her so very well.  It's like the mother I never had was there all along I just never knew where she was.  My adoptive mother really did try, I feel for her, but I have realized I feel more pity and sorrow for her life than a true attachment.  She has cancer now and I hate that for her.  Since my heart is so huge and my empathy so through the roof I find myself sobbing about it sometimes, not because I feel attached but because I feel bad that she hasn't been able to have a better life where she could have had more.  Unfortunately, we will never reach true mother-daughter bonding because of how judgemental she can be and how she dismisses who I am as a person.  I could never feel attached to someone like that, even though I can feel for them as a person.


Thanks a bunch for the info and advice!  I really apprecaite it, Notwendy! 

[DearBFF]

I meet new people, and with some of them I find a spark of interest or personal chemistry [different from romantic/sexual chemistry] that isn't easy to describe.

That is EXACTLY it and you described it perfectly!  It's as if I see something and think to myself, "You are interesting."  It's funny to me that when I find someone I think is completely cool and feel this feeling (only happens once in a blue moon), usually when the person comes up in conversation with vanilla people (again apologies if you like vanilla, , not sure how else to say it) they describe this person I would call cool/neat/fun as "weird."  I've started to learn the second I hear someone say "he/she is so weird!"  I MUST find out who this person is because chances are I will really, really like them!

Your description of your FOO does make it clear that being treated that way by people close to you is better than much of what your life has looked like. So this may take some getting used to.

I think you are quite right!  I enjoy someone when they take an interest in me, but I also feel extremely uncomfortable by it sometimes.  The reasons being that history tends to go from interest in me to either disinterest or disgust, when it turns out they are too busy for more than vanilla conversation or they are judgemental and cannot abide who I am as a person.  So just average nice people, it's a rarity for me.  Not sure if look in the wrong places or what, but they appear to be like unicorns to me for as few as I have met.

You can do things to build intimacy and friendship with the people you like best, even if they aren't all that close.

After sharing went so badly I think I may not be very good at that part, but I did read that chance meetings help.  I saw one of the homeschool moms at the grocery twice now, but didn't say hi the first time.  Ok, I didn't just not say hi I literally ducked and ran the other way.  I don't know why that kind of thing makes me nervous.  It's like I wasn't expecting to see them then I do, and it makes my world all askew, LOL.  When I saw her the second time (yesterday) I had just seen her that morning so I felt more comfortable approaching to say hi.  She was there with her two daughters and son.  Her son was the one who had played with my daughter earlier in the day and she commented, "Look it's your friend!" pointing him in the direction of my daughter.  Apparently, after we left he was bummed out he had no one to play with and my daughter said the same thing all the way home! It was a good interaction even though I felt a bit awkward doing it.

Also, this mom is going through a rough divorce and I hate seeing people in pain.  I bought her a great card and journal to brighten her day and she gave me a hug.  I just love helping people and seeing her smile knowing she has been so down lately made me so happy.  It's odd that I don't feel any strong connection, but I feel glad to be able to help in some way.  Also, I am thankful to her that she has this farm I am allowed to visit and animals my child can play with, plus a son around her age so my daughter has another friend she can see regularly besides BFF's daughter.

I have a bit of social anxiety/awkwardness myself. It was really bad when I was a kid/teen, and I started doing better in college, and over the following decades, I've continued to improve--both in terms of managing those feelings and having them become less of an issue. I don't know if it will help you, but here's a bit about how I 'tick' some coping/management ideas I'd try.

It's so good to know I am not alone.  The odd part with mine is that it developed over time instead of got better.  I think it was partly triggered when I became pregnant (although I know there was a hint of it before that).  This is because I had tokophobia fear of pregnancy so I didn't even want to be around anyone.  I spent almost my entire pregnancy shut up in my house.  I had no close friends anywhere nearby at the time and I was miserable.  I got so used to spending time alone reading, watching tv and movies I love, or playing on my computer that I sometimes felt lonely like I wanted a good conversation (which you can't really do by yourself), but it's like I forgot how to be with a group of people.  Then slowly after that I noticed I will always avoid the group of people. 

When we moved here it's why I forced myself to volunteer at a barn.  I could be near horses which I LOVE, plus I could get to know people with no pressure, since we would concentrate on our volunteer duties instead of making friends.  It would have worked wonderfully except the woman in charge was not very nice, and was super controlling.  Unfortunately, my desire to help by offering to photograph the horses and share the photographs resulted in her getting their lawyer to remove me as a volunteer.  Mind you I did nothing wrong, my volunteer contract said I should have received warning, plus the entire rest of the board had no idea it happened, but since then I have been even more wary of groups and organizations.  Then I ended up following BFF from barn to barn until she ditched me for 3 months after her previous barn job imploded and I was unfortunately in the aftermath.  I took a step away just before it went south as hubby warned me to be nowhere near her when it happened.  Unfortunately, the group I was closest to there kind of rearranged itself and I am still kind of branded BFF's friend and her name is not really spoken there.  So the few times I went since I notice whispers that stop as I round a corner.  Everyone is super nice, I just feel awkward and not really welcome.

I just recently AGAIN made myself join another animal rescue for dogs and cats this time (as I get horse time at the barn whenever I want), but unfortunately my crazy too full plate has left me little time to go there.  With juggling munchkin's school and homeschool group as well as 4H, trying to get my own projects done, and now looking for a house (not to mention BFF's ups and downs) I don't have the time to be there and commit as I had planned.  Luckily though it's still there and whenever I get everything else settled (probably summer) I will be back in full force!    Not sure I will make friends, but the only other pick me up that has true staying power for me is playing with an adorable puppy!   

I'm incredibly comfortable forming relationships/friendships online.

Me too!  I have reached out to someone I saw post on FB about BPD, then before I know it she invited me to a mental health facebook group!  It's happened more than once that I make a comment when I see a video/comment/post about BPD and then the person thanks me or I offer them the list of resources I have accumulated, and they are thankful and we may email some or facebook chat.  It's so nice!  It's like there is already a close/intimacy level because we get something about one another no one else does, whether they are the one with BPD or they love someone with BPD.  It's comforting to be able to talk about it and not explain what it is.

I have been wanting to get back into Second Life as I LOVE playing games and trivia on there is super fun.  It's like I get to enjoy a night out without leaving my house and play a game.  If I am stuck at home with munchkin I can play while she sleeps, or if hubby needs some "me" time on his computer then I can log in and hang out virtually instead.  It's been so long I need to get back into it.  Once things lighten up,  ... .

My own issue with online people is when I need that outside the house hangout, they usually live states away not 20 minutes.  While the conversation online and phone is nice, sometimes I need a face to face.

I have been thinking about becoming a youtuber, but I just don't think I could keep up with it.  Since talking really fills me up I've been considering posting vlogs and just responding to topics on hitrecord.org so that others can use my videos.  This way I get the deep conversation I want, even if it's only one-sided, plus it allows others to comment and react by remixing into a larger piece.  Again, once I have less on my plate.   

Think about this group of homeschool moms. Pick one of them

I think I'm working up to this... .Yay!  <see above grocery store mom>

Oddly enough this week I was supposed to have a playdate, well not me my daughter with a mom from the group.  I sat next to her and another mom at the last moms' night out and we had good chit chat, a bit deeper than vanilla.  She has a daughter who is adopted, so I think that was part of her initial invite.  The thing is she cancelled the day before.  She said she had a sinus infection, I'm sure she does, but I can't help but wonder if she just got to know me through my facebook and decided the playdate was not a good idea.  She did say we would reschedule, but then responded that she was taking the downtime to get better and catch up on bible study.  I am so not religious which is part of the issue I have with the homeschool group.  They are not a religious group, but they do mostly believe in God are Christian and attend bible study.  Nothing wrong with that, just so not my crowd... .unfortunately, the other groups in my area are 100% Christian and bible loving so I wouldn't get through the door as I would probably burst into flames. 

... .who seems interesting or fun, or just seems to be living her life in a way that you respect and admire.

Actually I had chit chat with two moms at dinner one being the playdate mom above, the other being who I would call the cool mom.  Her hair has colors in it, she has a tough girl attitude as she used to be in the military and she's an artist.  She seemed interesting at the last mom's night out so I made a point to sit closer this time to see what she was all about.  While she's a totally nice woman and I'm sure she'd be great friends for someone every time she started a story about someone she'd say, "She's a Christian" or "He's a Christian."  I just kept sitting there nodding with her story thinking "Why does it matter that they are a Christian?  I am so confused... ."  At fist I literally thought it pertained to her story, but then I realized it didn't she just felt the need to point it out.  I did kind of enjoy her company, but found that one constant comment extremely annoying by the end of the night.  I will not sit so close to her next time. 

Where are all my weirdos?   

Thanks a bunch Grey Kitty!  Awesome advice!  I'll work on it!

[Grey Kitty]

As for my boundaries I like them kind of mucky... .I don't seem to get anything out of vanilla conversation and no intimacy.  Intimate friendship is the only thing that feeds my soul, allows me to relax, and just be myself.  Without the intimacy most people would probably call icky, it just feels like another thing on my todo list which I just find draining.  Could I have more "friends" if I liked vanilla conversation and no intimacy?  SURE!  Would I be happy, nope... .  I like feeling like they are family, so they know the depths of your soul and all of your faults yet they choose to love you anyway.

You've mentioned this how you find "vanilla" or "surface" conversations without intimacy boring, even draining a few times.

While there are some truly shallow people, and they do indeed seem boring, I doubt that is the issue which trips you up in many cases.

I think it is your "murky boundaries" which are working against you. People with healthy boundaries don't share their most intimate details with strangers, or distant acquaintances. The normal/healthy boundaries approach is to get to know people gradually, over time, and allow time for them to prove themselves safe one step at a time as you connect on more intimate levels.

You might find that they are less vanilla than you think when you first met them if you allow them time to open up to you a bit.

Somebody who tells me their life story in all its intimate glory the first time I met them wouldn't be somebody I'd feel safe trusting with my intimate stories. To me it would clearly show that they don't have good boundaries, and probably aren't very trustworthy.

You may be causing this kind of reaction, by opening up about yourself too quickly and too early, scaring off people who do have healthy boundaries.

[DearBFF]

I meet new people, and with some of them I find a spark of interest or personal chemistry [different from romantic/sexual chemistry] that isn't easy to describe.

That is EXACTLY it and you described it perfectly!  It's as if I see something and think to myself, "You are interesting."  It's funny to me that when I find someone I think is completely cool and feel this feeling (only happens once in a blue moon), usually when the person comes up in conversation with vanilla people (again apologies if you like vanilla, , not sure how else to say it) they describe this person I would call cool/neat/fun as "weird."  I've started to learn the second I hear someone say "he/she is so weird!"  I MUST find out who this person is because chances are I will really, really like them!

Your description of your FOO does make it clear that being treated that way by people close to you is better than much of what your life has looked like. So this may take some getting used to.

I think you are quite right!  I enjoy someone when they take an interest in me, but I also feel extremely uncomfortable by it sometimes.  The reasons being that history tends to go from interest in me to either disinterest or disgust, when it turns out they are too busy for more than vanilla conversation or they are judgemental and cannot abide who I am as a person.  So just average nice people, it's a rarity for me.  Not sure if look in the wrong places or what, but they appear to be like unicorns to me for as few as I have met.

You can do things to build intimacy and friendship with the people you like best, even if they aren't all that close.

After sharing went so badly I think I may not be very good at that part, but I did read that chance meetings help.  I saw one of the homeschool moms at the grocery twice now, but didn't say hi the first time.  Ok, I didn't just not say hi I literally ducked and ran the other way.  I don't know why that kind of thing makes me nervous.  It's like I wasn't expecting to see them, then I do, and it makes my world all askew, LOL.  When I saw her the second time (yesterday) I had just seen her that morning so I felt more comfortable approaching to say hi.  She was there with her two daughters and son.  Her son was the one who had played with my daughter earlier in the day and she commented, "Look it's your friend!" pointing him in the direction of my daughter.  Apparently, after we left he was bummed out he had no one to play with and my daughter said the same thing all the way home! It was a good interaction even though I felt a bit awkward doing it.

Also, this mom is going through a rough divorce and I hate seeing people in pain.  I bought her a great card and journal to brighten her day and she gave me a hug.  I just love helping people and seeing her smile knowing she has been so down lately made me so happy.  It's odd that I don't feel any strong connection, but I feel glad to be able to help in some way.  Also, I am thankful to her that she has this farm I am allowed to visit and animals my child can play with, plus a son around her age so my daughter has another friend she can see regularly besides BFF's daughter.

I have a bit of social anxiety/awkwardness myself. It was really bad when I was a kid/teen, and I started doing better in college, and over the following decades, I've continued to improve--both in terms of managing those feelings and having them become less of an issue. I don't know if it will help you, but here's a bit about how I 'tick' some coping/management ideas I'd try.

It's so good to know I am not alone.  The odd part with mine is that it developed over time instead of got better.  I think it was partly triggered when I became pregnant (although I know there was a hint of it before that).  This is because I had tokophobia fear of pregnancy so I didn't even want to be around anyone.  I spent almost my entire pregnancy shut up in my house.  I had no close friends anywhere nearby at the time and I was miserable.  I got so used to spending time alone reading, watching tv and movies I love, or playing on my computer that I sometimes felt lonely like I wanted a good conversation (which you can't really do by yourself), but it's like I forgot how to be with a group of people.  Then slowly after that I noticed I will always avoid the group of people.  

When we moved here it's why I forced myself to volunteer at a barn.  I could be near horses which I LOVE, plus I could get to know people with no pressure, since we would concentrate on our volunteer duties instead of making friends.  It would have worked wonderfully except the woman in charge was not very nice, and was super controlling.  Unfortunately, my desire to help by offering to photograph the horses and share the photographs resulted in her getting their lawyer to remove me as a volunteer.  Mind you I did nothing wrong, my volunteer contract said I should have received warning, plus the entire rest of the board had no idea it happened, but since then I have been even more wary of groups and organizations.  Then I ended up following BFF from barn to barn until she ditched me for 3 months after her previous barn job imploded and I was unfortunately in the aftermath.  I took a step away just before it went south as hubby warned me to be nowhere near her when it happened.  Unfortunately, the group I was closest to there kind of rearranged itself and I am still kind of branded BFF's friend and her name is not really spoken there.  So the few times I went since I notice whispers that stop as I round a corner.  Everyone is super nice, I just feel awkward and not really welcome.

I just recently AGAIN made myself join another animal rescue for dogs and cats this time (as I get horse time at the barn whenever I want), but unfortunately my crazy too full plate has left me little time to go there.  With juggling munchkin's school and homeschool group as well as 4H, trying to get my own projects done, and now looking for a house (not to mention BFF's ups and downs) I don't have the time to be there and commit as I had planned.  Luckily though it's still there and whenever I get everything else settled (probably summer) I will be back in full force!    Not sure I will make friends, but the only other pick me up that has true staying power for me is playing with an adorable puppy!  

I'm incredibly comfortable forming relationships/friendships online.

Me too!  I have reached out to someone I saw post on FB about BPD, then before I know it she invited me to a mental health facebook group!  It's happened more than once that I make a comment when I see a video/comment/post about BPD and then the person thanks me or I offer them the list of resources I have accumulated, and they are thankful and we may email some or facebook chat.  It's so nice!  It's like there is already a close/intimacy level because we get something about one another no one else does, whether they are the one with BPD or they love someone with BPD.  It's comforting to be able to talk about it and not explain what it is.

I have been wanting to get back into Second Life as I LOVE playing games and trivia on there is super fun.  It's like I get to enjoy a night out without leaving my house and play a game.  If I am stuck at home with munchkin I can play while she sleeps, or if hubby needs some "me" time on his computer then I can log in and hang out virtually instead.  It's been so long I need to get back into it.  Once things lighten up,  ... .

My own issue with online people is when I need that outside the house hangout, they usually live states away not 20 minutes.  While the conversation online and phone is nice, sometimes I need a face to face.

I have been thinking about becoming a youtuber, but I just don't think I could keep up with it.  Since talking really fills me up I've been considering posting vlogs and just responding to topics on hitrecord.org so that others can use my videos.  This way I get the deep conversation I want, even if it's only one-sided, plus it allows others to comment and react by remixing into a larger piece.  Again, once I have less on my plate.  

Think about this group of homeschool moms. Pick one of them

I think I'm working up to this... .Yay!  <see above grocery store mom>

Oddly enough this week I was supposed to have a playdate, well not me my daughter with a mom from the group.  I sat next to her and another mom at the last moms' night out and we had good chit chat, a bit deeper than vanilla.  She has a daughter who is adopted, so I think that was part of her initial invite.  The thing is she cancelled the day before.  She said she had a sinus infection, I'm sure she does, but I can't help but wonder if she just got to know me through my facebook and decided the playdate was not a good idea.  She did say we would reschedule, but then responded that she was taking the downtime to get better and catch up on bible study.  I am so not religious which is part of the issue I have with the homeschool group.  They are not a religious group, but they do mostly believe in God are Christian and attend bible study.  Nothing wrong with that, just so not my crowd... .unfortunately, the other groups in my area are 100% Christian and bible loving so I wouldn't get through the door as I would probably burst into flames.  

... .who seems interesting or fun, or just seems to be living her life in a way that you respect and admire.

Actually I had chit chat with two moms at dinner one being the playdate mom above, the other being who I would call the cool mom.  Her hair has colors in it, she has a tough girl attitude as she used to be in the military and she's an artist.  She seemed interesting at the last mom's night out so I made a point to sit closer this time to see what she was all about.  While she's a totally nice woman and I'm sure she'd be great friends for someone every time she started a story about someone she'd say, "She's a Christian" or "He's a Christian."  I just kept sitting there nodding with her story thinking "Why does it matter that they are a Christian?  I am so confused... ."  At fist I literally thought it pertained to her story, but then I realized it didn't she just felt the need to point it out.  I did kind of enjoy her company, but found that one constant comment extremely annoying by the end of the night.  I will not sit so close to her next time.  

Where are all my weirdos?    

Thanks a bunch Grey Kitty!  Awesome advice!  I'll work on it!