Holding firm on boundaries...with kindness

[formflier]

This is a companion post to "validation win".  Perhaps I should have titled this "Boundaries Win" (mods... change if you like)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=295975.0;all


We have a new "biblical conference table" procedure that we are supposed to implement whenever there is a disagreement or "sinful" communication patterns come back.  Today was the first time I attempted to use it.  Basically it involves 4 rules of communication.  It is explicit that if someone believes that one of 4 rules has been broken they raise their hand and the other party stops talking and attempts to say what the "breach" is.

Then once the person has identified what they have said that is wrong, and both parties agree, then the "wrong" person asks forgiveness and focuses on change.  Then the conversation restarts.

Why go to conference table today?

I heard some conversation in the next room about going somewhere at 11am.  I was not aware of any plans, so I pipe up and ask where people are planning on going.  To the swimming pool is the answer.  And then comes the weirdness.  

We are talking to each other, but are in adjacent rooms. So lots of kids can hear this.

":)o you not remember all the times that I have mentioned it"

ff "yes I remember... .sounds like a fun time"

 (nasty tone) "So why did you ask if you remember it.  We didn't have our meeting last night, so nothing about today's schedule got talked about.  What are you upset about anyway"

ff "hey... .I'd like to take this conversation private either now or in a few minutes.  I think there is a misunderstanding"

ff wife: "You just don't want to be accountable for not holding a meeting right now and don't want the kids to hear whatever story you make up about it"

ff "Please take the conversation private.  This is inappropriate to discuss in front of the kids"

ff wife:  "Can you give me a list of things I can't talk about in front of the kids"

ff (silence)

There is some muttering and other stuff that got huffed about.  You get the picture.  I kept my mouth shut and went on about my business.

In 10 minutes or so (5 minutes of no muttering).  I said "Hey... .can we meet up and talk things over privately in about 15 minutes."  She sort of said yes... .in a PA way.  I didn't say anything else.

I printed out the instructions for the conference table and the rules and had them available on the kitchen table.  We rarely use the kitchen table to "talk".  The instructions said the location should be unfamiliar.  

I let her know that I was ready to talk, but not in a rush.  She said she would be there in a bit.

I was very intentional to say "Please let me know when you are ready"  She didn't respond.

A few minutes later she sits at table with music blaring from her smart phone.  Christian music.  She is holding the smartphone up between us.  I sit for a few minutes considering my papers.  One song ends and she starts another, still holding phone up as a barrier.

At some point I say, "Please let me know when you are finished and ready to talk".  She says "Oh... .I've been ready"  (again... nasty but not abusive)

She continues "Oh... .is it the music... .?  If you don't want the music why not ask me to turn it off?  I can't read minds you know... ."

I sit quietly.  She turns off the music and puts down phone.

I'm going to skip some details for space reasons, but they are all similar to the phone thing and me not "biting"

I finally get to say "The reason that I called the conference table is that I am concerned that a request to take a conversation private was not honored as we had agreed in counseling."  My goal is to understand your point of view and to clarify our agreement that either party can ask to take a conversation private and the other party agrees to stop talking and only resume in private."

To her credit... .she listened.  Then started in.  

Basically said that I was lying about having a meeting the night before and that I didn't want to lie in front of kids and that is why I wanted to go private.  Of course I raised my hand (as the procedure says) and she eventually stopped talking and looked bemused.  I pointed to the paper about raising the hand and she huffed and said she hadn't broken any communication rules.  I said that calling me a liar or implying that I was lying was attacking me instead of the problem.  

She disagreed and started back in on the lying thing.  I raised my hand.  She kept talking and accusing.  I got up and walked away.  

A bunch of blather and stuff came out but died down pretty quickly.  She claimed there was no "procedure" that allowed me to walk away.  I agreed and said I would be held accountable for my actions but would not engage in that type of conversation.

I thought it was over and was writing an email to Biblical Counselor asking for guidance when she came in (about 10 minutes later) put her hand on my shoulder and apologized.  Invited me back.  

We restart and she asked why this was important to me (going private).  As I was answering she cut me off and started talking.  I raised my hand.  She looked really twisted up as she correctly identified that she interrupted me, asked forgiveness and asked me to continue.

I explained from a boundaries point of view that the issues between us were ours and that since nobody else is involved, they don't need to hear or see it.

She got a bit excited and started talking again about nefarious reasons for taking a conversation private and then asked me if we could table the discussion until counseling.

I said "Sure... I'll agree to tabling this discussion"

She said "good... ." and then continued to talk about how bad it was to lie or have nefarious reasons for going private"

I raised my hand and she got louder.  I got up and walked away... .

She exploded in blather... .how dare you walk away from me... .you can't do this in mid sentence.  I got to other room and resume work at my desk.

More in next post

[formflier]

In 5 or 10 minutes she says... "please come back"

And in an even tone seemed to honestly ask "how could you walk away"

So, I said "You asked to table the discussion and I happily agreed.  Then it appears you wanted to continue talking about the issue you wanted to table.  I know these topics can be difficult, so I'm fine with either tabling it or continue to talking about it.  Your choice"

She said "Let's keep talking"

I sat down and she asked again for what I was after.  I said that I wanted a clear agreement and understanding that if either of us, for any reason, requests a conversation to go private, that talking stops and doesn't resume until we are in a private location.

She said she could agree to that as long as I was agreeable to talk about reasons to go private in counseling.  I said "then I'm good on the issue I brought up.  Is there anything else that you would like to talk about"

She said the rules say we are only supposed to talk for 15 minutes.  So we better stop now.  I would like to talk more this evening.  I said that would be fine.

I left room and resumed my work. 

She got ready to leave house after about 25 minutes or so.  She asked some questions about getting some cash for an outing.  I flirted with her some and we sorted out her money needs.  She actually left a few minutes after that, as she left she came in the room, put her hands on my shoulders and gave be a kiss... .a bit more than a peck but less than making out. 

I wished her a fun time at pool and she left.

I'm sure I missed chances to validate... .something today.  A time or two I acknowledged that conversations can be difficult.  There really wasn't any response so I didn't follow up.

My mindset was to provide structure, to not take bait and to redirect from rabbit trails.

"I need to get back to (fill in blank)" is a phrase I have been practicing.  It seemed to work well today.

FF

[GaGrl]

A few thoughts... .

1)  Sounds like the Privacy agreement needs to be clarified with the BC.
2)  Sounds like FFwife needs to vent and get clarification around "nefarious reasons" for Privacy requests.  this could blow up.
3)  Good job on boundaries.
4)  Could "I need to get back to <whatever> be phrased in such a way that it reinforces the fact that you are, indeed, working and earning $$$?  That's a good phrase and very useful.  Does your property management work have a business name?  Can you use it more often?

[formflier]

4)  Could "I need to get back to <whatever> be phrased in such a way that it reinforces the fact that you are, indeed, working and earning $$$?  That's a good phrase and very useful.  Does your property management work have a business name?  Can you use it more often?

This is a word track to get a conversation back on topic when the pwBPD tried to introduce rabbit trails.

so...

(semi-fictional example)

ff "I would like to talk about having private conversations"

ffw  "the only reason you want to talk is to cover your lies and why is it that you have never liked my mother... "

ff "I need to get back to our talk about private conversations... ." (said evenly and kindly)

It's about me, and the principle behind it is that the person that is initiating the conversation should keep steering it back to solve the problem.  Other issues can be separated out and dealt with later.

If we can't get back to it... .I'll exit the conversation and try again later.  What I won't do is "bite" and chase rabbits.

FF

[GaGrl]

Ah, I see. I thought you were excusing yourself from the conversation.