Validation help...

[NewStart]

Ok, I need some quick help with validation as I've been trying in every interaction but to no eval... .just got this message after my uBPD/NPDw lashed out last night... .thoughts?

"You are right and the point that I should not have lashed out at you last night I should been able to handle my s#!* better but it's just another feeling of such betrayal and if you would've handled things differently last night it would've been a huge step towards gaining trust and building some sort of relationship and friendship foundation"

Help, I feel any answer is a lose lose... .

[Lucky Jim]

Suggest you take a break to get some perspective.  Can you get away and stay with a friend or family member for a night or two?  Do you have a confidante with whom you can honestly discuss your situation?  It's easy to lose all sense of reality in a BPD r/s, which is why it's important to have a trusted friend or family member to keep you on course.  LJ

[fromheeltoheal]

"I'm sorry you feel that way.  If I were to have handled things differently, what would I have said, specifically?"

[formflier]

"You are right and the point that I should not have lashed out at you last night I should been able to handle my s#!* better but it's just another feeling of such betrayal and if you would've handled things differently last night it would've been a huge step towards gaining trust and building some sort of relationship and friendship foundation"

Help, I feel any answer is a lose lose... .

Here is my take... .

"Hey babe... .your note means a lot to me.  Can you help me understand the betrayal and trust building?    I would like to listen to your preference on handling such things. 

Would you rather write about it and follow that up with a conversation, or would you rather find some time when we can both be at our best to have a discussion.  I'm here for you and ready to listen."

Something like that. 

I don't think I've ever been in your threads before... .so don't know much about your r/s issues.  If you think the above message could go South... please explain that a bit... .and I'll try to adjust.

Big picture:  Be friendly... .let her know you are there and ready to listen.  No judgment.  Don't reference wrongdoing on her part... .or acknowledge the pseudo apology.  Remember... it's about her feelings and her feeling safe to share with you.  Deal with the rest later.

FF

FF

[babyducks]

"You are right and the point that I should not have lashed out at you last night I should been able to handle my s#!* better but it's just another feeling of such betrayal and if you would've handled things differently last night it would've been a huge step towards gaining trust and building some sort of relationship and friendship foundation"

Feelings of betrayal are hard to handle.   Everyone has a hard time with them, I think it's part of human nature.   I think you are right.   It does seem like we are having a hard time communicating in a way that creates feelings of trust and friendship.   What do you think we
can do differently to make sure a conversations like last nights doesn't happen again?

[NewStart]

Well this was my response... .

"I appreciate you acknowledging that and want you to know that I do understand how that could have felt hurtful to you especially if you felt I was somehow operating behind your back or had some sort of ulterior motives."

And of course, you guessed it... .she never responded... .well until she sent me a message that she was going shopping so I should come home after work to watch my stepdaughter... .yeah

[NewStart]

What do you think we
can do differently to make sure a conversations like last nights doesn't happen again?

I really feel like there is nothing I can do differently to avoid things like Halloween nights episode. Why? Because if it wasn't going to be my exgirlfriend being in the neighborhood it was going to be something else... .and yes sometimes I do make mistakes in my reactions.  So I second guess, "what if I have texted her that my ex was in the neighborhood?" Or "what if I hadn't matched her little contact in kind at times?" "What if I haden't hang out with friends and just came home that time?" I guess it feels like the list could go on and on as she can point to millions of seemingly innocent actions and tell me how on each occasion I failed her and she's "done"... .fear, obligation and guilt

[C.Stein]

Well this was my response... .

"I appreciate you acknowledging that and want you to know that I do understand how that could have felt hurtful to you especially if you felt I was somehow operating behind your back or had some sort of ulterior motives."

And of course, you guessed it... .she never responded... .well until she sent me a message that she was going shopping so I should come home after work to watch my stepdaughter... .yeah

And that is the problem (see bold).  No motivation on her part to reach a solution.  How do you think you can motivate her towards resolution without triggering her?

[NewStart]

And that is the problem (see bold).  No motivation on her part to reach a solution.  How do you think you can motivate her towards resolution without triggering her?

That is the problem C.Stein, she has had no motivation and now has less than ever. Frankly she's painted me so black to so many people that she's probably in a tough spot to get out of. We have had so many conversations and I have made so many promises that have been impossible to meet as the target is ever changing. So now when I try to engage, try to problem solve, she just says that she's heard it all before and actions speak louder than words.

At this point, it really feels the only thing that would help would be 100% submission. To give up myself 100% and do only as she orders... .and of course at some point that wouldn't be enough either would it? And actually, she's been so passive aggressive angry for so long, I don't really think that would help either.

Today started with the nuclear storm silent treatment... .she doesn't answer any questions, but makes a bunch of passive agressive comments to me while being super nice to the kids... .and I'm sure I won't hear from her today, well until she needs me to go grab her kids somewhere.

So what could I say? Guess someone needs to tell me... .

[formflier]

I failed her and she's "done"... .fear, obligation and guilt

This is where to focus validation AND to work hard at controlling your thoughts.  Because you KNOW that it's not about you.

She will find a reason... .

What is a way you can be friendly... .concerned... .and interested... .?   What question would you ask her... .to perhaps get her to open up about her feelings.

FF

[formflier]

At this point, it really feels the only thing that would help would be 100% submission. To give up myself 100% and do only as she orders... .

Noo

https://youtu.be/l4UFQWKjy_I

 

Big picture:  Respect yourself first.  Perhaps she will respect you... .perhaps not.  Part of the reason she behaves the way she does is that she doesn't respect you... .and realizes you will allow it. 

Ball is in your court... .

FF

[C.Stein]

So now when I try to engage, try to problem solve, she just says that she's heard it all before and actions speak louder than words.

What actions is she looking for specifically?

[formflier]

 

So now  try to problem solve, 

 
And remember... .it is highly unlikely she wants a problem solved.

It is very likely she

1.  Wants to be heard
2.  Wants to be understood
3.  Feelings validated

Unlikely she would be able to express it in this way... .but I bet if you used that list to refocus your efforts... .it likely will be productive for you.

"Problem solving" is a very "non" concept.  In our world... .a problem solved usually results in us having more positive feelings.

In their world (pwBPD) a problem solved leaves them with the same feeling... .the same "bottomless pit".  This is very confusing for them.  Since they are likely convinced that they are not responsible for their feelings... .AND... .their feelings still exist... .THEREFOR... .the problem solving must have actually failed... .or somehow be responsible for their negative feelings remaining.

I hope you can spend some time thinking about how exhausting it must be to live with that kind of thought pattern... .  Likely much more exhausting than being in a relationship with someone that has that kind of pattern.  You (the non) can take a break from the person when it gets to be too much.  They can't... .and generally choose dysfunctional ways to solve their "exhaustion" with their feelings.

FF

[NewStart]

I've tried validation for three years and at this point she's going to get validation elsewhere to burn this marriage to the ground. I'm soo exhausted from being projected on... .this woman is not as she seems to others... .at this point it just feels cruel. I validadate and she finds a spot to show me where I failed... .over and over and over.  

At this point it's silent treatment or bate to fight... .she has no resolution in mind at all... .

[formflier]

You are not "required" to validate. 

It would be better for you... .IMO... .to validate less (but more effectively) and save your energy.  Exhaustion is a tough place to be. 

Solution:  Figure out how much time and energy you can "spend" on validating her... .and do that.  Let her sort out the rest.


Projection:  When she "tosses" her feelings at you.  Spend as little energy as possible on a "slight side step".  Let them deflect or bounce off.  Then you are done.

It is not your responsibility to toss them back... .  That is wasted energy.

Does any of this help?

FF

[NewStart]

It does help, but recently I've been the horse in the stable kicking out all the boards and all I'm going to do is bring the barn down on my head.

I'm struggling with the push me away silent treatment and it's none of my business what she's doing, but I need to be ever vigilant and in contact as "I've broken her trust"... .

So yes, I think about focusing on myself and I do it wrong... .not for a normal relationship, but for a disordered one... .

[formflier]

recently I've been the horse in the stable kicking out all the boards and all I'm going to do is bring the barn down on my head.
 

So... .let's problem solve.       Yeah... I went there... .

If you want to avoid the barn collapsing on your head... .you should?

Actually a serious question... .I'm very interested in your answer.  Also being intentional about trying to keep things light.  I've been where you seem to be... .that's a tough place to be at and try to make good decisions... .

We can help you make better decisions and get to a better place... .

FF

[MaybeSo]

it might be helpful to give this thread some examples (actual wording between the two of you)  of what is said when you use validation.  My experience here has been that it can take a very long time before someone really gets what emotional validation is, much less starts doing it skillfully.  It also doesn't work if it's used like a template/tool.  It works best when the person really feels 'felt'.  Where she has the gut sense that you 'get her internal world and why it makes sense from her pov'.

when it's done robotically or like a script... .it comes off as phony psycho babble and/or just doesn't hit the mark.  

btw... .when you really do emotional validation well... .it naturally cuts down on projection. b/c you are affirming her felt sense and her private logic... .so it's okay for her to own her stuff and stop projecting it onto you... . and... .It doesn't have anything to do with AGREEING to stuff that you don't agree with, either. 
 

[NewStart]

Well, guess it doesn't really matter now... .she asked for a divorce yesterday, but she did say she was going to work hard to forgive me for my failings... .

I know she's making a mistake, I feel horrible for our children especially hers... .but a big piece of me feels some relief this morning.  Funny part is, she could sense my relief this morning and I could tell she was trying to backpedal... .saying I wanted "this" gesturing at the house and not "this" pointing to herself... .I didn't engage in it, she was trying to pull me in... .trying to start yet another argument... .

Exhausted... .

[formflier]

   

Hang in there.  What can you do to be especially nice to yourself?

Has she ever asked for divorce before?

I didn't engage in it, she was trying to pull me in... .trying to start yet another argument... .

Very wise... .I applaud you for recognizing this and acting... .or limiting your action based on your observations.

I'll leave you with an observation.  If she wants a divorce, she can get one.  You don't need to do anything.  In other words, don't let her goad you into into taking action on the divorce.

 

FF

[NewStart]

FF,

Wise words indeed and your take of letting her do the legwork if she wants to follow through with it is the stance I took.  At first I was totally in shock and tried to save it, said that I wanted to understand what she needed, how she felt and what I could do to make things better... .and she proceeded to call me a narcissist and began to point out every way in which I failed.  At that point I just snapped out of it, I took a step back, relaxed and just went with it.  I said, well then we have some tough decisions ahead and need to figure out when and how we tell the kids etc... .

Then this morning, I could sense a little buyers remorse... .I think she might have been surprised I wasn't "devastated"... .I'm going to let her take the wheel on this and am approaching it with acceptance whatever the course she chooses.

Finally, I feel empowered as I no longer have to walk on eggshells... .this morning I actually felt more like myself that I have in years... .

freedom101, thank you for the insite and something I should have done LONG ago... .don't engage just walk away as they're agruments are ones that you can never win... .

Here's to the road ahead, whatever that my be.

NS

[Lucky Jim]

Finally, I feel empowered as I no longer have to walk on eggshells... .this morning I actually felt more like myself that I have in years... .

Hey NewStart, This is a good sign, in my view.  Keep it up!

I'm going to let her take the wheel on this and am approaching it with acceptance whatever the course she chooses.

I would suggest that it's not about accepting her choice of a course; rather, it's about determining your own course.  Your life is not up to her, my friend.  The ball is in your court.  What would YOU like to see happen?

LuckyJim

[NewStart]

I would suggest that it's not about accepting her choice of a course; rather, it's about determining your own course.  Your life is not up to her, my friend.  The ball is in your court.  What would YOU like to see happen?

Wow, that's a good question... .and one that probably doesn't have the answer I would want.  I'd love to have my uBPD/NPDw take responsibility for her role in this dance we've been in... .I'd love for her to step back and see what a great thing she has with our family, home and with me... .I'd love for her to say she sorry and that she is committed to finding the right professional help.

But I know what will happen, she will continue to tell me how I have failed her, that I can't be trusted, that I only care about myself, that I need professional help, medication etc etc etc... .

The ball is in my court and I am choosing to not engage in the dance any more because the only change I can make is in my actions... .it will be nice to not have to beg for forgiveness from imagined slights anymore.

I guess in the end I'm interested to see the course she chooses now as I'm no longer afraid... .pretty liberating actually.

NS

[Lucky Jim]

Hey NS, That's a tough question, I know, in the context of BPD, so don't worry if you don't have the answer yet.  It's good to keep in the back of your mind, though, as you put one foot in front of the other.  LJ

[NewStart]

Lucky Jim,

Yeah I'm struggling to not reach out and respond to what she said this morning about obviously by my demeanor I'm getting what I wanted and that I loved the house but not her... .but part of me feels it's just another trap, she looks for me to say I love her and want her and then she just slaps me down again... .

Tough one as I feel what I wrote above... .and have that feeling that if I don't reach out in some way I won't have given it my best to try to save our marriage... .

Anyone have thoughts on that, do I just leave it well enough alone and let her come to a conclusion about what she's really asking for?

NS

[Lucky Jim]

Hey NS, Right, the knee-jerk reaction for a lot of us Nons is to apologize and try to placate the pwBPD, yet you're not doing that which is a good sign.  When and if you decide to reach out is up to you, of course, though I would be inclined to let things simmer.  She's an adult and can live with her actions.  No need for you to take responsibility for her feelings, OK?  LJ

[NewStart]

LJ,  
I would have to agree about letting it simmer.  It's counter intuitive for me to not want to find resolution, but what I've found in this relationship is there is no resolution.  I think in this process it will be important for her to see what she is doing without me intervening, it's one thing to talk about jumping off the cliff until you are standing on the edge looking down... .

F101,
Thanks for the support, it's so important especially in a situation as dire as this one to see that it's not just me... .that these things really do and did happen... .that it's something that I can't fix, she would first have see it and then have the strength to want to fix it... .

NS

[formflier]

Yeah I'm struggling to not reach out and respond to what she said this morning 

Think of this like going to the gym.  The weights are hard to move at first.  The more you "exercise" the muscle to only respond to things that deserve to be responded to... .the easier it gets.

Remember... .you are responsible for what you say.  She is responsible for what she says.

You are responsible for what you listen to and she is responsible for her choice of what to listen to.

Practically speaking... .when she starts to tell you about your failings... .remember... .you have a choice.

There is a healthy way to disengage.  Are you interested in learning more about that?

FF

[NewStart]

There is a healthy way to disengage.  Are you interested in learning more about that?

I guess so... .feels so counter intuitive to not try to actively save this through actions, but what are your ideas?

NS