Another Argument - Nearing the End

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Last night my uBPDw came to me and asked "what shocking surprises do you have in store for me? What kind of financial games are you going to play? You have promised me so many things but I know for a fact that you can't afford them. You're obviously going to pull the rug out from under me, so I just want to know in advance so I can try and plan around you."

I don't think what she said was particularly "abusive" but my reaction is anger and defensiveness. As the conversation went on, I first tried to be direct: "you're right, I can't afford these things. We need to discuss a different approach." Her response is angry and direct: "No. YOU need to take a different approach. What I'm asking for is what I need. It's reasonable for someone like me to ask for those things." In my head, the word "Narcissist" is flashing in bright red neon. She asks "what's the worst case scenario here?" And again I pick honesty: "The worst case is that I get sued by the credit card companies and as a defense I will need to file for bankruptcy protection." Now it feels like she's attacking: "You're fear mongering. You're being over dramatic and trying to control me with fear! You told me that bankruptcy was off the table but really you WANT to take us to bankruptcy and purposely (mess) my life up."

Because of the circumstances I chose to soft pedal and say I'd find another way, get another job, negotiate harder to prevent lawsuits. But in my heart, I though back to all the advice I've gotten here and in many other places over the years.

I think I'm going to have to leave, just so I can get my life on track. It feels desperate and I'm so scared and worried and sad about my daughter and how custody and living apart will affect her. But I'm starting to think she won't have a dad very much longer if I don't split.

Not sure what my point is with all that but I guess at least it's a story and a situation I know lots of people can relate to.

Thanks for listening.

DB

[DaddyBear77]

Last night my uBPDw came to me and asked "what shocking surprises do you have in store for me? What kind of financial games are you going to play? You have promised me so many things but I know for a fact that you can't afford them. You're obviously going to pull the rug out from under me, so I just want to know in advance so I can try and plan around you."

I don't think what she said was particularly "abusive" but my reaction is anger and defensiveness. As the conversation went on, I first tried to be direct: "you're right, I can't afford these things. We need to discuss a different approach." Her response is angry and direct: "No. YOU need to take a different approach. What I'm asking for is what I need. It's reasonable for someone like me to ask for those things." In my head, the word "Narcissist" is flashing in bright red neon. She asks "what's the worst case scenario here?" And again I pick honesty: "The worst case is that I get sued by the credit card companies and as a defense I will need to file for bankruptcy protection." Now it feels like she's attacking: "You're fear mongering. You're being over dramatic and trying to control me with fear! You told me that bankruptcy was off the table but really you WANT to take us to bankruptcy and purposely (mess) my life up."

Because of the circumstances I chose to soft pedal and say I'd find another way, get another job, negotiate harder to prevent lawsuits. But in my heart, I though back to all the advice I've gotten here and in many other places over the years.

I think I'm going to have to leave, just so I can get my life on track. It feels desperate and I'm so scared and worried and sad about my daughter and how custody and living apart will affect her. But I'm starting to think she won't have a dad very much longer if I don't split.

Not sure what my point is with all that but I guess at least it's a story and a situation I know lots of people can relate to.

Thanks for listening.

DB

[Notwendy]

I am reminded of my mother- who seems to have no limit on spending money. I've written before that my father got into debt when I was a teen.

My mother really believed she was entitled to a certain level of support. On the other hand, I didn't understand how she could continue to have expectations while my father was in debt.

The financial stresses were evident. Mom would get it in her mind that she had to have something, and she got it. Yet we didn't dare ask our dad for money for the things a typical teen might want. I babysat for extra money- but that was a good lesson for a teen.

I think it may help you to speak to a lawyer who can tell you exactly what your financial obligations are legally. I believe a wealthy man couldn't have his wife live in relative poverty, but I don't believe a husband has to allow a wife to live above his means. I think knowing your rights and options will help you when she accuses you of not providing what she feels she is entitled to.

[formflier]

I'm glad that you are self aware enough to see your reactions to her irritability and unreasonableness.  I agree with you that I don't see anything particularly abusive there.  However, we all have the benefit of history and you certainly understand where this is likely going. 

Notwendy is right on point:  Figure out for sure what your legal obligations actually are. 

Principle:  At least one person in the r/s needs to be dealing with reality.  Please don't try to convince your pwBPD that she is NOT dealing with reality. 

Listen, this type of thing is common in a r/s with a pwBPD traits.  In my world I call it "weird" communication.  Very suggestive, very unclear and it gives lots of places a pwBPD can "go" with it and gives lots of deniability. 

Chances that you will convince her to change her "default" or "initial" communications style... .VERY LOW.

Chances that you can exit the unpleasant conversation and allow your pwBPD to make a choice... .WELL THAT IS ENTIRELY UP TO YOU.

Example that does this:  "It means a lot to me that you are helping with finances.  Let me give this some thought today.  Can you take a look at our budget spreadsheet today?  I'm interested in your thoughts on choices we may make."

The more unreasonable she is being... .the shorter the response.  "It means a lot to me that you are helping with finances.  Let me give this some thought today."


Thoughts?

FF

[DaddyBear77]

formflier, here are my thoughts:
1. I am fully aware, at a rational level, that I cannot change how my pwBPD thinks / reacts / behaves. The emotions of the moment will often escalate and I will lose touch with that, but I'm trying (and succeeding most of the time)
2. Allowing my pwBPD to make her own choice is exactly what I'm striving for. I feel like *I* need to be clear on MY choices, and which choices are mine to make, before I can say what I REALLY want to say.
and finally,
3. History has shown that, when presented with a statement or stance that conflicts with her strongly held beliefs of how things should happen, she will decompensate rapidly. Within a couple of minutes she will start to rage. Within 10 minutes she will sob inconsolably. Within 30 minutes she will have locked herself in the bathroom. Most often this is all associated with very loud, disruptive, upsetting, painful screams and cries. Rationally, I see this very clearly as an extinction burst. Emotionally, this is almost always what drives me to capitulate and revert to a previously held, albeit completely untenable, position. This was particularly the case when my daughter was an infant - I was constantly trying to reduce or eliminate exposure to such an upsetting environment. I often failed.

Just writing the above thoughts out has given me some direction - I need to understand more about extinction, and how it might play into my situation. For example, I imagine a day where I say something like "I choose to close every credit account in a permanent way and walk away from creditors in every way possible." I know generally what the extinction burst will look like. The issue will rapidly and forcefully become about me and how awful my ideas always are, and will stray far away from the practical issue of budget. I can establish a plan of leaving the conversation until she ___? I can hope for the best (she'll finally decided to budget) but expect the usual ("wives like me should never have to budget. why can't you pull your act together?" and practice responses.

But it comes down to this (a principle which I fully agree with) - one person in the r/s needs to be dealing with reality

So those are my thoughts. Thank you so much formflier

[DaddyBear77]

I think it may help you to speak to a lawyer who can tell you exactly what your financial obligations are legally. I believe a wealthy man couldn't have his wife live in relative poverty, but I don't believe a husband has to allow a wife to live above his means.

Notwendy - I really appreciate you sharing your story and as I said before, I can see my daughter looking back at my relationship with the same frustration and disbelief as you describe, assuming that I don't act.

For the record, whenever I fantasize about divorce and alimony, I've never once considered giving her less than her full half, for as long as it takes for her to get to the next phase of her life. If that's forever, so be it. I have many more thoughts and considerations on this matter, but I think that's a good summary of where I stand.

DB

[Notwendy]

Daddybear, consider that what looks like an extinction burst is actually similar to a temper tantrum. I agree with FF that your wife's ideas about money are not consistent with reality. If yours are, then you are the one who needs to hold on to that.

This isn't a mystery. Money isn't unlimited - most of the time it is earned by hard work. There are few people on the planet who could spend without limitations and not get themselves into financial trouble. Your wife may be an adult, but the way she sees money is with the emotions of a toddler. Even a child in grade school can do simple math and understand money.

Your daughter will hopefully see things with clarity because I hope you do not allow her to have unrealistic ideas about money. Imagine your teen age daughter saying the same things as your wife " I want to go to the mall and buy whatever I want with your credit card or you will be a bad father". I hope you say no, and send that daughter to her room, let her slam the doors, scream " I hate you" and then when she calms down, give her an allowance to manage and let her get a babysitting job to earn the extras she may want, because it is a good lesson about money. Where she will see the discrepancy is that these rules apply to her but not her mother. Now, children don't generally have the same privileges as adults- because they don't have the responsibility. Managing money is a responsibility. They go hand in hand. She will wonder why your wife is allowed to spend you into bankruptcy.

Indulging your wife's fantasy ideas about money are just that, indulging something that isn't real. You may not get her to accept this reality about money but you have to be the one to establish this or face the financial consequences. Your wife may feel you are being mean, but it isn't mean, it is reality.