BEWARE of mediation!

[FindingMyGut]

  Trigger warning: discussion of suicide

I wanted to share an experience that caught me by surprise and reminded me of the “thought holes” and “well-intended bad advice” caretakers of B/NPD’ed people are at extra risk of being subjected to (as described by Dana Morningstar in her book ‘Out of the Fog’).

I met with a mediator last week as part of my private preparations to exit from my marriage. This mediator had hundreds of 5-star reviews and is a Harvard trained negotiator.

He asked me if I’ve tried marriage counselling. I informed him that our marriage counsellor and 2 of my independent therapists have advised against it, given my husband’s  problematic behaviours and an imbalanced power dynamic. I was very careful not to say the word narcissist or borderline or personality (per recommendations from this group and author Bill Eddy).

The mediator then proceeded to share a cautionary tale in which a client of his, the husband, “blew his head off” after his wife refused marriage counselling because her therapist said her husband had signs of NPD. The mediator explained to me that this poor man was not diagnosed and that this therapist was out of line making “accusations”. The mediator told me how he would be on the phone with this husband at all hours of the night trying to talk him off of a ledge. He said the wife had no compassion for the pain she was causing her husband. He said it was a sad situation that could have been prevented and he clearly lover her so much and was desperate to make it work..

WHAT?!?!?   

How does a mediator undermine the lived experience of this woman, criticize a mental health care professional, and then take on the role of marriage counsellor, therapist and judge/jury, and still call themselves a neutral third party?! He also bragged about his compassion and empathy, but leading a story with such a crude description of someone’s death seemed alarmingly disconnected to me.

I was so disturbed by the contrast between his credentials and ratings and what I was intuiting from our conversation. I felt gaslit like never before!!! Am I the crazy one?  I’m so tired of asking myself that every day.

In addition, the mediator described how he works only with both parties in the room at all times (but takes private calls for mental health crises as an exception?!).

As someone with little power or voice in my relationship, this felt like another environment where I’d be walked all over.

While I’d like to avoid escalating my separation/divorce by involving lawyers, that call taught me that I need someone advising me that isn’t judging the emotions and is primarily focused on fighting for my rights. Most especially because I don’t trust that I’m strong enough to fight for my own yet.

I have not finished reading ‘Splitting’ by Bill Eddy, but I’ve heard he recommends having ground rules in place with mediators. What ground rules have helped others in mediation?

I think the best solution for me will be to have a lawyer and use mediation as a sub-process. Or use collaborative lawyers.

Any related advice or comment is welcome.

[EyesUp]

Mediation can work for fair, reasonable, and well-intentioned people.

When a PD is in play, emotions override reason and good intentions - that's often how we arrive at the D process in the first place... An "objective third party" may or may not be motivated to spot and then call-out an emotional imbalance in negotiation - the job is simply to guide the parties to an agreement. More often than not, a mediator will lead the parties to positions that can be captured in an agreement - if someone capitulates well outside of legal guidelines or precedent, so be it. The mediators job isn't to prioritize either party's interest - it's just to get the agreement done.

That's why we often advocate for using an atty with experience in high conflict cases. Not necessarily to go to trial (although that can happen), but to negotiate the agreement with your best interests - and the interests of any minor children - front and center.

In my case, I knew that mediation would not be the most practical option, but I proposed it anyway - in the spirit of putting all options on the table - and to document my then-stbx's predictable rejection of this option. 

Not always, but predictably often, a disordered partner views the D process as an opportunity to air grievances and put on a show, to gain sympathy and attention, and to disparage their stbx partner, etc.

Others will collapse a bit and may be avoidant. This type appears to be unable or unwilling to participate, and may drag out the process - adding cost and extending the conflict. This is one of the ways that a disordered person can extend a relationship, in which they somehow gain something from the conflict.

If you're able to get through mediation, that's often a less costly approach in terms of fees - but it can include higher costs in the agreement itself if you end up capitulating on many terms in order to shut down the conflict and bring things to a conclusion.

Only you know what's best for your situation. That said, I'd encourage you to speak with a few local attys - request a preliminary interview (don't ask for a consultation - some attys will charge for their time).  If you've already filed, see if the attys have experience with the judge that's been assigned to your case. Be prepared to concisely present a summary of your case: length of marriage, pre-marital and post-marital assets for both parties, current incomes for both parties, ages of the children (if any), who is the primary parent for school and medical care, etc. - and ask the atty based on these factors what a typical settlement might look like.  Also, find your state/county guidelines for alimony and child support - read them and know them. Find a calculator/simulator - no need to pay an atty to do this for you.

If you speak with a few attys, you glean insights about your case that you hadn't previously considered.  I'd put this activity in to the "ounce of prevention" category - you may not hire an atty, but if mediation goes sideways, you will be better prepared to make that next call...

It's a lot of work - hope some of this is helpful - hang in there.

[CC43]

Hi there,

A close relative in my life is going through a tough divorce with an uNPD.  As the prior poster said, I think that mediation works for rational people.  With BPD and NPD, rationality, reasonableness, compromise in the name of moving on and putting kids' interests front and center simply do not work.  In my close relative's case, she still hasn't been able to finalize a divorce or parenting plan because the uNPD won't agree to anything, and even if he did agree, that doesn't mean he'll comply with the stipulations.  To him, any agreement is just "words," and he refuses to do anything he doesn't want to do.  He won't sign any agreement anyway.  He doesn't show up to court.  He's been through three sets of lawyers, each which resigned because of "communication difficulties," which is code for, he won't participate in any constructive way, and he probably won't pay anything either.  In fact, this very day he was due in court, and he texted his new lawyer this morning stating that he won't appear.  The courts and lawyers, who are never in a hurry and generally prefer to kick the can down the road, don't help much.  So I guess my advice is, try to find a lawyer who has real experience dealing with BPD/NPD.  My close relative has been trying to get a divorce for more than five years now, and the lawyers and the "system" don't seem to help much, even when Child Protective Services has been involved multiple times. 

[ForeverDad]

We hear relatively few accounts of suicide here on the separating, divorcing and post-divorce board, but yes it is always a possibility.  That said, the mediator sounds a bit dogmatic - or perhaps burned by the incident - that he wants all bases covered, so to speak.

From the mediator's account of his extensive contact with the suicidal spouse, it's quite possible that, despite anybody's potential intervention earlier with the individual, the outcome still might have been unchanged.

While we can listen to others' concerns about "what ifs", we shouldn't feel guilted or obligated if we have come to a conclusion otherwise.  As is often mentioned here, we try to inform and educate our viewers since an informed and educated person can feel enabled to make practical and strategic decisions.

Just as one suicide doesn't mean all might suicide, one mediator's perspective doesn't mean all mediators have that perspective.  It's very likely other mediators would have other life experiences.  It would be interesting to hear if you can interview other mediators.

Typically mediation is often required as one of the first steps in a divorce.  My court made a "standard" temp order then required next steps to be parenting classes and mediation attempts.  My experience, and that of many others here, has been that mediation attempts often fail early in the separation/divorce since the stbEx can be too entitled that early in the process.

Generally our focus here has been to select experienced proactive family law attorneys (lawyers or solicitors) since we need to be mindful of the entire divorce process.  Other experts too would be Custody Evaluators, Guardians ad Litems (GAL), Parenting Coordinators, etc.

[GaGrl]

I'm trained as a mediator but used it exclusively in my corporate career. What you say about this mediator has several red flags. The immediate mention of suicide is problematic.

The second red flag is the mediators insistence that he only works with both parties in the same room. Most mediators would give the option of meeting together or having the mediation with each party in a separate room, with the mediator moving between them. I prefer separate rooms, because each party can then privately discuss options and consequences before finalizing a proposal or agreement.

[FindingMyGut]

Thank you EyesUp

This affirms what I am learning about the separation/D process and different roles played.

Not always, but predictably often, a disordered partner views the D process as an opportunity to air grievances and put on a show, to gain sympathy and attention, and to disparage their stbx partner, etc.

Others will collapse a bit and may be avoidant. This type appears to be unable or unwilling to participate, and may drag out the process - adding cost and extending the conflict. This is one of the ways that a disordered person can extend a relationship, in which they somehow gain something from the conflict.

I anticipate both will occur with my SO; sympathy seeking/victim mentality as well as denial and dragging response/input. I anticipate needed mediation as a cost saving measure as he drags everything out, but needing to use an atty / the court system to hold him to account.

speak with a few local attys - request a preliminary interview (don't ask for a consultation - some attys will charge for their time).  If you've already filed, see if the attys have experience with the judge that's been assigned to your case. Be prepared to concisely present a summary of your case: length of marriage, pre-marital and post-marital assets for both parties, current incomes for both parties, ages of the children (if any), who is the primary parent for school and medical care, etc. - and ask the atty based on these factors what a typical settlement might look like.  Also, find your state/county guidelines for alimony and child support - read them and know them. Find a calculator/simulator - no need to pay an atty to do this for you.

If you speak with a few attys, you glean insights about your case that you hadn't previously considered.  I'd put this activity in to the "ounce of prevention" category - you may not hire an atty, but if mediation goes sideways, you will be better prepared to make that next call...

It's a lot of work - hope some of this is helpful - hang in there.

Thank you - I love these practical tips!! 

[FindingMyGut]

My close relative has been trying to get a divorce for more than five years now, and the lawyers and the "system" don't seem to help much, even when Child Protective Services has been involved multiple times. 

What a nightmare!!!!

So do you think in their case an atty with more experience in bpd/npd would be able to support a quicker resolution?

[EyesUp]

So do you think in their case an atty with more experience in bpd/npd would be able to support a quicker resolution?

There are a few different types of attorneys pertaining to PDs and high conflict cases:

1) attys who deal with conflict all the time, and therefore believe and represent that they have experience - and expertise - that they don't truly have
2) attys who fully understand PDs and have specific thoughts about how to manage the dynamic with their clients' best interest (and their professional reputation) in mind
3) attys who at least partially understand PDs and view cases with these dynamics as their personal gravy train - maximum time and billable hours

Conclusion:  It's up to you to manage your case, to select the best available atty for your specific dynamic, and then to manage your atty accordingly. Choose carefully.

[PeteWitsend]

...
How does a mediator undermine the lived experience of this woman, criticize a mental health care professional, and then take on the role of marriage counsellor, therapist and judge/jury, and still call themselves a neutral third party?!
...

How?  Well, he went to Harvard!

(only half joking... I've met very few Harvard alums, but they've all been uniformly incompetent, or at best, so arrogant and self-absorbed that they really can't function)

This is all extremely troubling, as is his practice of keeping both parties in the room.  There's a reason no one else does it that way...

[Notwendy]

I think it's fair to say that there are people with personality disorders or quirks in all professions and with all kinds of credentials.

This would be the red flag for me- the mediator's job is to help you with your issues - not to share his professional problems with you. You felt invalidated and unsupported. This isn't someone you think would uphold your best interests in your situation.

While it was delivered poorly- I do think he had a point about marital counseling. Both marital counseling and mediation require that both people are seeking a solution, and can communicate effectively with each other. This isn't the case in high conflict relationships, and where there is a PD. If MC was a high conflict situation, then mediation may not be the best choice.

So, even though this mediator sounds like he has his own issues- it may be that it helps point you in the right direction to get the help and support you need in this situation, and that may be an attorney.

[PeteWitsend]

If I was in family court again, I would discuss potential mediators up front with my attorney, knowing a judge's first move is likely going to be to order the parties to mediation.

The decision of who to use as a mediator - in my experience - takes place fairly quickly, and no one really gives a second thought to it, especially since the professionals here (family law attorneys, judges, and mediators) are all swimming in the same pool so to speak, and thus are more concerned with their reputation in said pool, and less with your individual case.  So they may agree to a mediator who may be very unprofessional but has friends in the right places, without a second thought.  It could be up to you to vet the mediator.

In my case, someone (I can't remember if it was the judge or STBxw's attorney), suggested a mediator and my attorney said she was fine. 

Well, unbeknownst to me, this mediator (a former judge) was only a former judge because she had been caught in a big ethics scandal - she was accepting campaign donations from a local real estate developer while presiding over his divorce case - and lost the election to be retained.  She had been appointed to fill a vacancy in the first place (never elected), and so her judicial and political career was over.  But I guess she still had enough friends that they threw her some bones and directed mediation work to her.  She showed up to the proceeding in a new Porsche SUV, LOL.

So look them up... I found all that out by googling her after the fact, and wish I had done my homework prior to that. 

In the event, it  seemed like the mediator was willing to go along with some of the unhinged suggestions my STBxw made, and was more or less hostile to me at various points in the mediation when I stood up for myself.  And she dragged the proceedings out, so they took a full day, doubling her fee.   

SO, lesson learned: vet your potential mediator (as the OP did) as well as you can.  I do wonder if people with ethical issues in their past like that make it more likely they would identify with a pwBPD/or behavioral issues in a mediation.  And regardless, it's better to have an ethical person overseeing a proceeding than an unethical one.

If the mediator is going to be appointed in a hearing, and you don't have a list of the potential ones, I would ask your attorney ahead of time to request a day or two to review mediators before agreeing to one.  I think a judge would allow that.