DISTURBING just need to talk about it

[byfaith]

I know this is not a BPD issue but bringing it to my wife could trigger her.
We were on our way back from visiting my MIL out if state. My wifes son was in the back seat. He awoke from sleeping, he had to pee so bad that i had to pull over on the side of the interstate for him to piss.

Most of you know the situation with my wife and son he is a grown man. She told him to get out and leave the door open so as to block traffic from seeing him. Well he got out and i thought he was on the other side of the door taking a leak i had to look in the back seat to make sure the dog didnt jump out. Low and behold the son was on the wrong side of the door there it was! I just went oh geez! And my wife said what? Did you see his (package) im like uh yeah unfortunatley! So what does she do? She turns around to look!

I have no idea why? It bothers me. I have thought about saying something but it would just cause problems
I know this is a weird post. Some of you that know my situation can understand why it bugs me. What would you label this behavior? Just more lack of boundaries?

I will post about our visit to my MIL's as another topic.

[formflier]

   

So... what would you like to say to her... .that you are concerned would cause problems?

Hang in there man... .

FF

[Notwendy]

Creepy

I don't see the point in bringing it up with her. If she thinks any of this was Ok- asking if you saw it and going to look herself- then discussion would go nowhere.

If you want a mother reference- yes I did diaper my kids and help them in the potty when they were small- as part of being a caregiver. They are way past that age. The idea of what your wife did is creepy to me. I know she is caregiver to her mentally ill son but that is not caregiver behavior. If he is capable of going to the bathroom by himself, she has no reason to be involved or to look.

I'm not a man, but I assume that in a public bathroom- men see other men. It's a violation of privacy to be asked or discuss the private parts of anyone else. What if it was your boss, or your friend and she asked you that? I hope you'd say it's none of her business. Just because it's her son doesn't give her the right to ask this.

The fact that she looked at her own son is creepy. The only reason I don't go as far as saying incestuous is because he is mentally impaired and functioning as a child. She may perceive him as a child. Yet he is a grown man and she invaded his privacy for reasons I have no idea.

So what is your part in this ? The question was a boundary violation. Asking you if you saw another mans package is not appropriate. I assume you have - in a restroom, locker room. People go to the bathroom- and they can expect privacy. One answer might be that "men share public bathrooms and respect each other's privacy" .

[formflier]

I've got an angle on this... .if it fits... .fine.  If not let it pass. 

My understanding is that in your relationship a lot of humor... .perhaps "acrid" humor... .is used.  Correct?

I'm going to go a bit further and suggest that some of her humor seems like wanting to "be one of the guys... "... .vice be "like a lady".  To be "coarse" instead of "gentle".

I say this because Naval Aviation used to be a "guys" fraternity and let's just say some of the "guyish" behavior was taken to extremes... .in a joking way.  Although many (especially outsiders) would suggest it was not a joke at all.

Well... let's just say there are various forms of jokes surrounding getting others to look at your junk.  In a certain context (drunk aviators comes to mind)... .perhaps it's funny.  In most... it's not.

One of the shocking things about "BPDish" behavior is  that so much of what they seem to do and be "normal" about... .seems shockingly out of context... .or out of place to us.

My gut reaction is that this is "guylike" behavior vice "incestuous".  Also... .it's not like either of you guys had time to "think it through"... . 

There were quick reactions... a dog to care for... .a car to make sure it didn't get peed in... .a mental son to keep from getting run over... .and to give some privacy to.    Likely if I tried I could keep thinking of more.   What I've listed is plenty for "something" to go wrong.  It did.

Add that to already raw feelings... .and it's easy for your mind to head down an unproductive path.

   

Hang in there man... .


FF

[Notwendy]

One possible explanation for this behavior could be that your wife was sexually abused. This can account for strange or poor boundaries around sexuality and body parts. Someone who had his/her boundaries repeatedly violated may not perceive this behavior as inappropriate.

My mother has some inappropriate boundaries with sexual topics. She also seems to enjoy being able to get past boundaries. Also if someone is enmeshed with someone else then privacy doesn't exist. I have no proof but I suspect my mother was sexually abused at some point because of her behavior.

This is also part of being emotionally immature. I think some of us can recall that stage of curiosity- realizing that others have different parts and being curious. The stage where kids "played doctor". This stage was not sexual at this age- and this is where children learn that some parts are private and that you didnt play those games. A grown mother and son are way past this, but maybe not emotionally.

[formflier]

One possible explanation for this behavior could be that your wife was sexually abused. 

I had forgotten this aspect.  I think this is more likely the issue... coupled with no boundaries... .that my theory above or any "incestuous" tendency. 

FF

[byfaith]

thank you for the feedback,

you both are correct on several points.

yes that was the word I had going through my mind for most of the rest of the trip, creepy. I was also trying to rationalize her behavior as you did FF. I do agree with NW that bringing it up to her would do no good. It is what it is. I just have to sort out my thoughts on the whole thing.

Her "favorite" phrase now with me is "you have a stick up your A$$ with his name all over it" whenever I bring issues up concerning him or him and her combined etc.

LOL! I had to look up the word acrid in the dictionary... You are correct with your assumption. I personally don't like the "over use" of this type of stuff. Certain types of conversations are not for mixed company and uses of certain words etc. For instance, I am not "against" using the word fart but using it out of place and to excess is, to me, excessive.

She also has this thing with burping/belching. I also don't think it is wrong to burp now and again and even do it once in a while being funny, again, in context of the situation.
I also don't just go around the house burping all the time or at the table or wherever.

As you stated FF "I'm going to go a bit further and suggest that some of her humor seems like wanting to "be one of the guys... "... .vice be "like a lady".  To be "coarse" instead of "gentle".  I have thought to myself why does she not want to behave like a woman should? Especially after her saying things like " I want to be the woman God wants me to be"

Her behavior is along the lines of a strange rebellious attitude of "well I know it is offensive to you but I am going to do it anyway and not care what you think because I like who I am etc."  those exact words have not come out of her mouth but close

Yes, she was sexually abused. She did not know it at the time but she lost her virginity to her half brother. She "fell in love" with him at age 15. Then her other brothers and including her father had "incestuous" behavior towards her. It's disturbing to even type this stuff out.

She told me that her oldest brother would lay on top of her ( with their clothes on) and he would have music playing in the background. He would press himself down on her. I asked her why she didn't stop it? she said because I wanted him to like me.

I kept to myself most of last night when we got back. I went out to the kitchen at one point and they were both out there. They were goofing around and she was laughing that they were fake head butting and almost hit each other in the head. I said well that would have been seem stitches there. She was in her night shirt that she wears, no bra on. Hate to put it this way but outline of nipples seen on the shirt. When she was around him all was well but I noticed when I came out after about a minute she started to cross her arms as to hide them.

I understand at this point none of this will be solved to enable us to have a marriage that "works" I am just trying to discuss it here

I believe you are correct NW she views him as a child but then on the other hand she views him as a man. She will refer to him as a grown man. I know she went through the whole stroke caregiving roll back when he had his stroke in 2004 and she had to see him exposed, she was his caregiver. That is not the case now. She has created a problem with him that I cannot fix.

I will say this. If the roll was reversed and my daughter had to make an emergency P stop and my wife accidentally saw her with her pants down, I would make every attempt not to look. If I did, I would be labeled a sick pervert.

[formflier]

Hey... .I think we have chatted about this before... .but I hope you would re-read this thread and look at the "totality" of the issue that is in front of you... .in front of both of you... .if you want the marriage to get better... .or even just to remain tolerable.

Given the number of marriages, the history of abuse (sexual and otherwise)... .coupled with a current issue of "caring for" a mentally ill son.

And a reality that her words of wanting better do not "match" with any action in therapy... or in the home.

Is there anything on the "good" side that I am missing?  Anything on the "bad" side? 

Thinking big picture here.


FF

[byfaith]

to be blunt I am ending it. There is no fixing this. That is the big picture. You are not missing anything. If there is good it is in the form of just two people sitting around talking and sharing a house together. There is no future here.

I went down to visit her mom with her to see how things would be. There was no fighting. We were just there. I could as easily been at home doing productive things.

I have exhausted every avenue that I know of. I have an appointment set up tomorrow to borrow money to pay an attorney. I just have to get through my fears. I have to go through with this. My world is going to get worse before it gets better I just have to accept that.

Is it ok for me to keep posting on this board? I guess my posts will get moved if they do not fit. 

[formflier]

I have exhausted every avenue that I know of. I have an appointment set up tomorrow to borrow money to pay an attorney. I just have to get through my fears. I have to go through with this. My world is going to get worse before it gets better I just have to accept that.
  

Good job taking steps to move forward.  Make sure attorney knows that papers are filed... .but not served.  Hopefully he can get copy and you can "accept service".

How do you see your world getting worse?  Probably a good time to lay our your fears... .we can help you work through probability and plan appropriately.

I would say the less you talk to your wife about this... the better.

Let her attorney find out... .or let her find out because the court contacts her... .

Is there anyway to induce her to move to another place... .perhaps if you offer to pay a couple months.

One of the biggest things that bugs me is that... .if I remember right.  It's your house (she is not on deed) and you would like to sell it... correct? 

You need to get them out... .so you can fix it up... .which will free up money... .which will help you start your new life.

Does your wife and her son get disability?  What funds did they bring or contribute to marriage?

I would ask if your state allows fraud or breach  or "fault" divorce.  And would that help you with settlement. 

Hang in there man... .

FF

[Notwendy]

Your wife's family's behavior is (IMHO) seriously disturbed. She grew up in a family that seems to be OK with sexual abuse and incest. Seems she is repeating this behavior with her son. Even if he is mentally ill, he is a grown man, with adult sexual feelings and her behavior with him has to be arousing to him. This is abusive. He is mentally ill and while she has issues, she is also choosing to do this.

Another mom perspective. It sure is nice to come home after a day of work/errands/being a mom and put on sweats and take off the bra. We moms get to do this for only so long- as once kids reach a certain age- they don't want to see this and we don't want them to see anything sexually suggestive. And, also- their same age friends are often at the house too. I do recall the day I realized I had to wear a bra in the house- or if I didn't want to- a thick fleece sweatshirt that nothing showed through. Neither did I want to see my kids uncovered. I value modesty and privacy- and their boundaries with their bodies.

Your wife's behavior with her son is inappropriate in many ways. It's almost as if they are peers, not mother and son. I don't play head butt with my kids.

IMHO, I think you are being reasonable that these issues are beyond your ability to influence. You wanted a wife, but it appears she is emotionally enmeshed with her grown son. 

[Grey Kitty]

Low and behold the son was on the wrong side of the door there it was! I just went oh geez! And my wife said what? Did you see his (package) im like uh yeah unfortunatley! So what does she do? She turns around to look!

One possibility is that she looked for some weird-impulsive reason, which is hard to explain. Write it off as chance; You did the same.

You looked, while trying not to see him, felt mildly creaped out over what you saw, and that was the end of it.

OTOH, if there is something more to why she was looking, what she was thinking, or whatever... .well, I'd recommend you rapidly look the other way on that too! You've decided you are divorcing and moving out. It isn't your job to fix either of them, or protect either of them from the other, or stick your nose into any hypothetical possible mess there!

Make it not your business anymore.