There seems to be no connection between actions and consequences

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello notwendy,

I know how difficult it is to not give in into this learned tendency.
For me it helps to pretend I am like a robot. I do say something in the line of : 'That must be annoying for you', or 'Tell me what you would like me to do', but for the rest I tell myself 'don't do it ! Do not step in again like a fool'. It seems contra-intuitive, but I think that's because I learned to step in too quickly. Because I do not see most other people do this.

What also helps is to pretend there is a line between me and that other person. I am at one side of the line, they are at the other. I wave friendly to them from my side. But I stand firm and I do not cross the line, because my 'home' is at my side (the place where I feel comfortable). If they want to wreck havoc on their side, that's still a little uncomfortable for me to see, but almost not even anymore. Everyone who wants to behave like a fool is allowed to. I do not have to save them (unless they ask me to specifically, and then even it has to be something I want to do).

Even if someone is elderly, like your mum, I think it's perfectly ethical to act as such. If she's not demented, she can still make all of the choices an adult can make. When my dear grandma was still alive I wanted to take away little carpets in her house, because she sometimes tripped over them. She wanted them to stay where they were (she was not BPD, just a bit stubborn about some things, proud, you know). So I always left them. Her choice... .Only at the very end I told her 'listen gran, please let me take this one way because it really really makes me feel uncomfortable'. And this was because I started to doubt if she didn't get demented. Luckily she let me take it  :-P    Writing this out makes me realize how much I still miss her.  :-)

[Fie]

Hello notwendy,

I know how difficult it is to not give in into this learned tendency.
For me it helps to pretend I am like a robot. I do say something in the line of : 'That must be annoying for you', or 'Tell me what you would like me to do', but for the rest I tell myself 'don't do it ! Do not step in again like a fool'. It seems contra-intuitive, but I think that's because I learned to step in too quickly. Because I do not see most other people do this.

What also helps is to pretend there is a line between me and that other person. I am at one side of the line, they are at the other. I wave friendly to them from my side. But I stand firm and I do not cross the line, because my 'home' is at my side (the place where I feel comfortable). If they want to wreck havoc on their side, that's still a little uncomfortable for me to see, but almost not even anymore. Everyone who wants to behave like a fool is allowed to. I do not have to save them (unless they ask me to specifically, and then even it has to be something I want to do).

Even if someone is elderly, like your mum, I think it's perfectly ethical to act as such. If she's not demented, she can still make all of the choices an adult can make. When my dear grandma was still alive I wanted to take away little carpets in her house, because she sometimes tripped over them. She wanted them to stay where they were (she was not BPD, just a bit stubborn about some things, proud, you know). So I always left them. Her choice... .Only at the very end I told her 'listen gran, please let me take this one way because it really really makes me feel uncomfortable'. And this was because I started to doubt if she didn't get demented. Luckily she let me take it  :-P    Writing this out makes me realize how much I still miss her.  :-)

[Notwendy]

Thanks, Fie, I will keep your advice in mind.

Your granny was feisty- but it seems you had a connection with her.

I do get that for older parents, it is hard to let their children take over. My mother can on one hand act like a child and want me to take care of things she can do for herself, and on the other hand resist my trying to help her with things she can not do- like drive.

I think it in some way feels scary and invalidating for her if I help her with things she can not do. Maybe it confirms to her that she can not do them or scares her to feel she truly needs help. When she manipulates others to do things she can do for herself, it's not about needing help, but being in control.

One of the lessons I learned about co-dependency is to not do for others what they can do for themselves. With mom it's going to be to let her deal with her own situation regardless.

[Fie]

I think it in some way feels scary and invalidating for her if I help her with things she can not do.

It is possible, but it's also possible that it does not feel scary at all and she just enjoys the control plus the drama and confusion.

After having read a lot of your posts I think you are one of those people who are very emphatic (again, like a lot of children of BPD). Please keep in mind that you do not have to analyse your mum's emotional state. Adults are supposed to be able to tell us how they are feeling. If our BPD loved one does not do that (and in stead, acts out), this should not have the side effect that we go second guess their feelings, rescue them, etc.

One of the lessons I learned about co-dependency is to not do for others what they can do for themselves.

That is I think very correct ! In my opinion it is also to not do for others what they did not ask help for. There was a time when I was always on the lookout to 'help' people somehow. One day I told a friend to watch out upon crossing the street. She told me : 'please don't tell me that, I actually do know that and I do see the car coming. You are treating me like a child sometimes'. I thought about that and I think she was right. I started to work on that tendency from then on, and I now think she was probably not the only one thinking that about me.

[Notwendy]

You are correct in all of this Fie.

It is true that when we help without being asked others can find this invalidating. I have worked on not doing this with others.

It's been a challenge with my mother since our role as children was to anticipate her needs and moods. It's almost like a 6th sense. She barely has to make a peep of discontent and we try to fix whatever she isn't happy with. We learned to do this in order to avoid the rages.

But this isn't necessary now.

The other hard part is her age.

But I appreciate your pointing these things out to me because it helps me to be aware of my side of this. Thanks

[Basenji]

It is true that when we help without being asked others can find this invalidating. I have worked on not doing this with others.

Thinking further about the issues raised in this thread, I woke in the night last night with a thought and I am just trying to decide whether it is a crazy notion or an actual insight ... . ?

Ok, so the borderline selects certain people to unleash their negative emotions and behaviours - and yet they can behave "normally" to other select folk. (Yep, I realise timing can be a factor as well).

So in the case of my own uBPD mother there are lifelong friends who have never witnessed or experienced her raging rants. She tends not to expose her toxicity to unknown people (shop workers, doctors, etc). Indeed most would never realise she has a condition.

My observation focuses on myself and I guess others on this great website who we are the victims of the toxic side of the borderline.

We are the very ones who suffer the abusive rants, etc. Yet we keep trying to satisfy, remain enmeshed, etc. We assume that we are doing the right thing by trying to fix the problem, seek to satisfy, etc., feel guilty when we step away, etc. We justify this on the basis that we attach to some moral or ethical position that we are supposed to be there to support and fix and nurture our parents or other family member.

So let's turn that on its head!  

Since we are the people that trigger the toxic side of our reactive borderline family members, maybe we are wrong to assume that it is our "duty", ethical or moral responsibility to involve ourselves with these people. By being there and fussing over them we are doing something that is actually not good for them - we are triggering those very bad behaviours that cause so much stress for all parties!

We are seeking to satisfy a selfish need in ourselves (rushing around trying to fix stuff as a response to their demands).

Perhaps in some cases, even by going to see them we are doing the wrong thing by creating a trigger for them. Without us being there they would be less triggered (in some cases) and therefore happier people - they can focus their social interactions on those folk who they never abuse.

So... .are we actually part of the problem... .triggering their stuff and thereby increasing their unhappiness?

In my own case, I suspect that my BPD mother loves to revel in her deluded fantasy of her relationship with me and is happy for her mind to dwell in that space, but the actual physical reality is not that relationship at all - when I'm present she is always on the edge of being triggered into her toxic responses because I can never satisfy her demands.

And yet, she can live a relatively OK life associating with one or two friends who don't get abused by her, pretend she has an amazing relationship with a loving son who she basically never sees and be far happier than if I did live down the street, tried to help her as a daily part of her life only to trigger her into an emotional embolism on a repeated basis.

Maybe it our actual duty of care to stay away, and not be there in some cases?!

Like I said, just an idea... .

[Notwendy]

That is an interesting idea. I also learned though that even if others trigger me ( and we can have our fears triggered), whose responsibility is the reaction to the trigger? Mine. If I get triggered, it is because I am attaching some meaning to it. It is my task then to manage my own thoughts and feelings. If I take the perspective that it is the fault of the person who triggered me, and I should avoid that person, then I am taking "victim" perspective- "he triggered me" vs "I feel triggered, what is going on?" In fact, being triggered can be a learning opportunity and help us work on them.

So, I don't take the perspective that if I trigger my mother, I am doing something to her. She can get triggered very easily by something I say. In some situations, that becomes a learning experience for both of us as if I don't get reactive, or take it personally, the situation calms down. In the past, I would react emotionally and it would fuel the dysfunction.

My mother also can hold it together with certain people, but the tendency to be triggered by people who are closest to her is still there. It isn't us who do this to her ( but we can participate in it by adding our own dysfunction). Staying away doesn't change this. In my mother's case, she plays these issues out with her caretakers. The difference is that they are being paid to care for her. Some choose to tolerate it and others don't. But also, the caretakers may be able to manage it differently because their relationship with her is not as emotional as mother- child. I absolutely agree that a paid caretaker is a much better caretaker for my mother than family because of this.

As to the question of should I see her, how often, how long - that is determined by my ability to manage myself in the situation and how much time I want to be there and if she wants me to be in contact with her. At the moment, she does, and I do feel a level of duty/obligation to stay in contact- whether that is right or wrong, or self serving or not. It is a challenge for me to maintain my own boundaries when I am with her- but at the moment, I do choose this. For others they choose NC. I think that's something we can each choose- what we feel is the best thing to do. Both decisions I think are difficult in different ways.

In summary- although we can trigger them, that in itself may not be bad for them, but if we are reactive to it, that may add to the dysfunction. Also, self care comes first, and if staying away is best for us ,we can choose to do this, whether it is best for them or not.

I think you make a great point Basenjii and neither of us is "right" or "wrong" - it's a great perspective and an interesting discussion to see these different ideas.

[Fie]

Waw Basenji, what a great observation you are making.

You are kind of confirming what had been shimmering in my mind after my grandma dysregulated last year.

It was the first time she did something like that with me, I had no idea about her BPD (I am now 100% sure she has it), yet she had been doing similar things with other people close to her.

The day after her dysregulation I called her to 'make up'. She was still angry. I tried to see her a few times after that, same thing. My daughter has seen her since and told me grandma said that I should not have called her, since I only called to fight.  I then thought well, maybe she just wants to be left alone... .

I saw grandma last week - we hadn't see each for other over a year. I suddenly felt like I had grown stronger and I could handle the risk of another dysregulation, so I decided to drive up there.

I did not have the feeling she was happy to see me though, on the contrary.

Maybe it really is like you are saying. I am happy that someone else pointed this out. I had a feeling it was like that with grandma, but FOG you know... .I kind of felt guilty for thinking she did not want to see me because it would be a good excuse for me to not visit anymore (I just could not handle visiting). But I think my feeling was kind of based in reality. Now I in fact would like to visit her again. But I am really thinking that it is possible that she's not interested. She did not give any sign that she was happy to see me. The only thing pointing in that direction would be that, after I told her : 'please grandma if you do not want to see me tell me and I will respect that', she said : 'I didn't say that I didn't want to see you did I?'. Before the dysregulation of last year she always told me she was so happy to see me, etc. You know. Things grandmothers say. Now the atmosphere was awkward and a little hostile even.

Thanks for lifting a bit of my FOG.

[Notwendy]

Great observation.

My mother does seem happy to see me, so I don't think she doesn't want to see me. I know that FOG and dysfunctional patterns are challenges for me.

What is different now is that I have changed. I have had a lot of codependency work - progress - not perfection of course, and so certain behaviors on her part don't work for her any more. Makes sense that she'd be confused - they worked before.

A change in the dynamic is that since my father passed away - some of her ways of getting what she wants aren't working. I didn't fear her so much as I feared his disapproval. If I didn't comply with her wishes, she would enlist him and I would comply then.

But I still have patterns of stepping in to help her that I need to work on.

If she truly didn't want to see me or I thought it was bad for her ( and both of us) I would stay away.

[Basenji]

That is an interesting idea. I also learned though that even if others trigger me ( and we can have our fears triggered), whose responsibility is the reaction to the trigger? Mine.

Please may I share some further thoughts on the discussion:

Notwendy – I really respect your point of view!

It is an excellent point that we must all individually take responsibility for how we react to triggers in our environment. Similarly, the borderline needs to take responsibility for their reactions to triggers.

Yes, we need to master our own reactions, and thereby demonstrate to the borderline that they do not have the power to create emotional drama in us.

That said, perhaps a borderline is by definition…a borderline! Whereas a functioning person, such as you or I, has the capacity to heal, to grow, to adapt our behaviors, master our responses to triggers, etc., isn’t it in the very nature of the borderline personality not to enjoy the same capacity for such? Their default position is denial. They are prone to over reaction. Even adept professionals find them a handful!

In support of your point, I did manage to circumvent much angst with my own mother for about 10 days one time she came to visit on vacation. I did change my reaction to triggers from her. Instead of reacting negatively when she was abusive I made a joke out of it – “oh Mom don’t be so daft” (in as silly accent clearly denoting comedic intent).

It worked – actually jollied her out of the moment!

On the other hand, it only worked for a few days, at least, until she realized she was missing the drama hit, and ignored the humor of the moment and went straight back into nastiness.

I just wonder whether by mastering our own triggers from the borderline we are actually effectively disengaging emotionally from the person anyway, which brings me back to the thought bubble that eventually the journey leads inexorably to emotional detachment, with or without the NC.

Interestingly, my mother was married to a subclinical sociopath – by definition someone who had emotional detachment and thereby was pre-adapted to handle the borderline (for some years at least…).

[Notwendy]

I just wonder whether by mastering our own triggers from the borderline we are actually effectively disengaging emotionally from the person anyway, which brings me back to the thought bubble that eventually the journey leads inexorably to emotional detachment, with or without the NC.

This sums it up well. I long ago realized that my mother's capacity to relate to people was limited by her disorder. I don't think I see her in terms of how people see their mothers. Our relationship is not very emotional on my part. However, I have these almost automatic responses to her - codependent and caretaking- as this was my role since I was young, and it was reinforced by my father. I was very attached to him- and very much wanted attention and approval from him. But that seemed contingent on "keeping mother happy" ( as if anyone could do that ) and so I did what was expected of me.

Her responses to me don't feel hurtful, just frustrating as she both needs help and yet it is so difficult to help her because of the drama. By help- I do not want to be her caretaker. That would not be good for both of us. But even a short visit seems to involve drama. I guess accepting that this is what it is is part of it. I don't want to go NC, as I don't think I could be OK with it- for me. I just keep working at how to deal with my end of this relationship. I don't expect change from her.