How Do I Stop the Arguments?

[Frankee]

Back again.  Seems every day something comes up.  Latest is yesterday.  Today hasn't even started.  It was classic blame placing.  He went all out blaming me for how he feels for everything.  Saying he doesn't want to be my husband, doesn't want to be our kids Dad, doesn't want to be a brother.  Hates everyone for making him feel this way.  Everything we do is wrong wrong wrong... We can never get anything right... He lays out step by step instructions and we can never say it's done, it's always something that happens.  I asked what about the times when it's not us that's causing the problems?  It's something else out of our control?  Classic response... "If you get your s*** together at what you can control, then what you can't won't be so bad".  He just kept saying I can't do this anymore, I don't want to do this anymore, I don't want to feel this way anymore, I'm done.  I asked him, so what do you want to do?  What do you want me to do?  I can sit here and say I'm going to try better, I'm going to do better, but you'll just say, you always say that and you never do, and I'll say, just give me a chance, and you'll say it's too late... .So I'm sorry I'm being quite, but I'm not sure how to respond.

I got so frustrated.  I didn't know what to say, I had said the same things over and over so I wasn't going to say them again.  So I sat there, quiet, not knowing what to do.  I know it was making him mad.  I know he wanted me to reassure him or something, I don't know.  He did his, I'm leaving... goes to leave, stands there and comes back and starts again.  We talk some more and he does this a couple more times.  Then eventually he leaves saying that's he's leaving and I know it's my favorite thing for him to do.  I couldn't do it.  I couldn't validate his feelings this time.  He got angry over something I had no control over.  Yet somehow he was able to say it's my fault, even when we had discussed a due date on our car inspection, we both knew we had until a certain date, but he had left it all to me to get it done.  So when a mark on the inspection failed, it was all my fault.  I was lazy and waited till the last minute, I should have done it before, I waited until the day before, I knew when it was due by... He was blaming me for how he feels and I refuse to accept it.  If he wants to leave because I won't validate that, I don't care.  

I'm struggling to accept that this is who he is.  I see the symptoms displayed across his face when he gets like this. He's texts me this after he leaves
"I don't want to do this anymore.  I don't want to be mad anymore.  I don't want to talk down to you, I don't want the kids seeing it, I don't want to deal with your lies, or any bulls*** that comes along with it.  I'm not happy.  I still love you.  But loving someone isn't always enough.  I don't know what else to do, I just know I can't do this anymore."

I thought for a second and was like, you know what... I'm going to be honest with my feelings.  I told him that he is not the only one that feels that way and I wasn't being mean or sarcastic.  He said so we are on the same page, great, it's over.  I continued to explained that I don't want honest feelings meaning it's over, but that he's not alone.  I'm always going to be hopeful for a brighter future, but I'm not going to hide the fact that I feel hopeless right now.  Nothing is set in stone, unless you make it that way and I'm not going too.  So of course, he only picked out the negative.  Replying that I said it, it's hopeless and he doesn't want to feel this way.  Me being frustrated and this point.  I acknowledged I did say that, but it does not define who I am or that it will always be this way.  I'm going to feel this way, not ignore it, and then get back to doing what needs to be done.  Even if I do it in a train wreck sort of way, going to keep trying.  Just keeps saying he doesn't want to feel this way.  I agreed, that I don't want to feel this was I'm feeling either, but means I'm going to find the strength inside to keep moving forward.  I let him know I wasn't trying to make it about me, but that he's not alone.  That I hope we can get past this together and make it work.

Who knows if that approach made any difference or made it worse.  I just know that got tired or pretending like I'm not affected by all of this.  I just got another text blaming me for not making sure his brother had his money ready, even though he went to work at 5am.  This is pretty much where I am.  Use to being blamed for everything going wrong.  Expecting to be blamed for anything that goes wrong.  I don't know what he wants.  He wants me to argue back, but I can't keep arguing over every little thing and I just don't have the energy to do it.  Especially when it's gotten to the point that I really don't have a reaction over it anymore.  He talks crap about his own baby when he wakes up screaming in the middle of the night.  Saying stuff like he think he may be retarted or something.  He doesn't even take time to stop and try to understand why our baby does it.  With our oldest starting school again, it isn't going to make anything easier.  Had to stand in front of the mirror yesterday and give myself a pep talk.  I'm being pulled in thousands of different directions and I'm trying so hard just to not fall apart.  I will never have the kind of relationship that those happy supportive couples have and I need to grieve the death of that dream and accept what my life really is.

[Frankee]

Wanted to add a little rant.  He mad me mad.  He doesn't help with anything about the kids, bit**** at me because I got the pick up spot mixed up at school because they switched it, it was their first day.  Fine, whatever, I got it wrong.  Easy fix, I know now where to pick him up at as well as make sure the school knows I'm walking to pick him up.  But no, he has to get mad saying the things I don't make sense, that I didn't tell anybody, and who cares if I have to pick him up around back, asking if I'm a fat person (which I'm not and it's stupid to ask that which he knows).  He did his "whatever", told him exactly and it's not going to happen again because now I know where he goes.  He acts like it is such a HUGE chore whenever HE has to go out of his way to do something inconvenient.  Like I should kiss his feet and act like he did me a huge favor when it's his kid too.

[Meili]

Vent away Frankee. We're here to listen.

In reading your post, I started to wonder if you've read about the Karpman Drama Triangle?

Sometimes we find ourselves getting caught up in the drama triangle dynamic and play out one of the three roles: victim, persecutor, or rescuer. Our partner adopts one position and we another. As long as we keep taking part in this dynamic it tends to continue. The only way to stop it is to step out of the corners of the triangle.

Does the drama triangle resonate with your relationship?

[ozmatoz]

Hello Frankee, I can totally relate to what you are experiencing.  Everyday its something I have no control over yet its made out to be my fault.  Sounds like we are dealing with some of the same arguments.

I chuckled a bit (sorry) at the inspection sticker only because we just had a blowout over that yesterday at our house too. I reminded her that it was due by the end of the month, she let it go.  She used my car all weekend no problem.  I told her over the weekend that on Tuesday morning to take my car and drop off D10 and head to work just like any other day.  I would take her car straight to the garage for inspection and then head in to work.  No problem, happy to take care of it, I always have.  Tuesday morning rolls around and I'm standing there with my hand out waiting for her keys, she storms off hops in her car with D10 and shouts to me that I'm useless and that she'll take care of it.  The rest of the day I got texts saying how she cant count on me and its one more reason she wants to be done.

I too get pulled into a thousand different directions.  I am constantly told I need to "do better" ok... .so I try something else... .wrong.  Try something else... .wrong... .repeat repeat repeat.  Wrong type of flowers, I would have preferred fudge, dinner by the ocean was nice but I didnt try hard enough to make it special... .it goes on and on. 

It is very exhausting and I know how hard you are trying to keep it all together.  It is SO hard to stay positive and hopeful when all they do is focus on the negative and twist anything good into another negative.

Vent and rant away, we hear you and understand you.  My uBPDw would have crucified me if I mixed up a school pickup.
You are doing the best you can and it is more than enough.

Best of luck,
-Oz

[Frankee]

That triangle thing is my relationship.  Some days I handle episodes better than other days.  Some days I've been "handling" his episodes and then one happens to where the dam breaks and I loose my composure.  He got mad today I was being quiet... He got mad I was being quiet... So fine, I went on the opposite and talked and argued... While trying to be aware of the whole stupid validation stuff.  I acted childish and sarcastic at times... Which he didn't appreciate, but that was me being me when I'm in a defiant mood.  He says that he's taking over finances because I always get it wrong (proceeded to list of everything I messed up).  I'm glad. 

He says I act like a child when I do everything around here.  He sleeps late like a pubescent teenager, mad and grumpy when I have to wake him up.  Sits on his butt and watches TV till her leaves, go to work (like a teen would with night classes) eats fast food all the time, comes home in the middle of the night, expects me to be awake to spend time with him, wants me to make him a snack, run his back, stay up until he falls asleep, while taking care of the baby in the middle of the night... And the repeat the next day... .>:{    I make him food, take care of the kids, the house, do his laundry, wash dishes, make sure his "areas" are clean, pay ALL the bills, do 90% of errands needed, keep track of due dates, paperwork, work full time and having to ride a bike to and from work because he needs his car aka "sanctuary from all us as****"... .So he thinks he's punishing me by taking away my responsibilities about paying bills... My thought... About fu*** time!  My dad didn't make my mom do everything plus bills.  My dad handled all their finances and my parents have two houses, retired, and travel... So ask me how I should feel bad if the husband taking care of the finances should be a bad thing... .

Sorry for the rant... I'm just so frustrated.  Even when I do what he asks, I'm not allowed what so ever to make any kind of change to his "plans".  If I do, then I never listen to him, I never do as he asks, I never get anything right.  So he wants me to be a mindless robot and follow his "instructions" and not ask anything of him... Fine... I will pretend to be his little computer while he's around... Let's see how look he lasts "taking care" of the the bills and stuff.

[Meili]

Don't worry about ranting Frankee, we're here to listen to them.

It all does sound very frustrating. I can imagine anyone going through that would feel that way. I don't do half of what you do, and I get frustrated when asked to do more. 

It takes a great deal of strength to not respond emotionally when our partner is emotionally dysregulated. Don't worry that you don't get it perfect every time. None of us do. All that we can do when it happens is look to the future and make plans to handle it differently next time.

[Frankee]

I appreciate the kind words.  It's hard.  We are supposes to validate them, choose our words carefully, not take it personal... When we get none of that in return.  It is literally a one way street majority of the time.  I know it's not going to easy.  I tried to be the tough woman who could handle it all... But I'm lying to myself.  I am driving myself into the ground.  I can't handle it all.  Even worse, he's going to start doing finances and then constantly rub it in my face on how easy it is and how he doesn't understand why I have so much trouble.  Even when I say I did something, he stills doesn't believe me... And then upcoming bill... He asked why is it so much?  I said because it's for both of us... And he did his "we'll see". Which I knew he was going to say so I childishly mimicked him.  I know I didn't handle it like they say, but I tried to show him I have emotions.

I wish they could see.  If we didn't love them, we wouldn't try so hard.  I never tried nearly as hard to make anyone else happy as much as I try with him.  Isn't it so defeating when you feel good about something that was done "right" and the way they "asked" gets completely thrown out the window or canceled out whenever we do something "wrong".  Trying different approaches to arguments also seems self defeating.  Can never respond how they want even if you think it's the "right" way.  I'm feeling lost today.  Tired, angry, hurt, frustrated... They can leave such emotional destruction in their path and still say it's all our faults.  I know it's not.  I'm trying not to let it get to me, but today was a hurtful one.  Telling me outright he's going to try to hurt me emotionally because I can never do what he asks... .How am I not supposed to take it personally... I'm only trying to stay sane in this relationship while he says I'm refusing to work on it... .:_( Just Want to crawl under the covers and stay in the dark till I can find the strength to face every.  He calls me a child... .He should look in the mirror.

[Cole]

Meili brought up Karpman's triangle. This is what you are dealing with; I know because this is my life. My W is soundly entrenched in the victim position. Everyone around her is a persecutor who makes her feel bad and it is my fault for not rescuing her. Sound familiar?

Remember that it is not on you to rescue him, nor can you, really. He feels shame for who and what he does and needs an outlet; something or someone to blame it on. So, he convinces himself that he is the victim of all the persecutors who "makes him feel this way". Blame transfer is a key component of BPD, as it is a tool used to desperately make themselves feel better.  

So, how to stop the arguments... .

It takes two to argue, and we tend to engage these arguments with the noble idea of reasoning with our BPDso. It does not work. I have stopped having these circular arguments, as they seem to serve no purpose other than to enable the BPD behavior. Remember to follow SET, and finish by stating the truth ONCE only then disengaging.  

[waverider]

Not reacting is hard. Even the best of us will. The real trick is to recognise the mechanics at work so that when you do react you can curtail it and head off escalation. Then don't kick yourself for reacting.

Not reacting can cause you to bottle up until you do blow or loose yourself.

It is the circular aspect that sends it to a bad place and your temper through the roof. Once you can keep that on a leash then the need to react lessons

[Frankee]

Meili brought up Karpman's triangle. This is what you are dealing with; I know because this is my life. My W is soundly entrenched in the victim position. Everyone around her is a persecutor who makes her feel bad and it is my fault for not rescuing her. Sound familiar?

Remember that it is not on you to rescue him, nor can you, really. He feels shame for who and what he does and needs an outlet; something or someone to blame it on. So, he convinces himself that he is the victim of all the persecutors who "makes him feel this way". Blame transfer is a key component of BPD, as it is a tool used to desperately make themselves feel better.  

I got that recently.  The rage about how he despises everyone that makes him feel this way, he hates all of us because we make him feel this way, he doesn't want to feel this way anymore, it's all my fault he feels this way, etc etc.  When I said I can't control his emotions, only threw fuel on the fire.  He got mad I wasn't able to "fix it" or "make it better" or how I can flip a switch and make him mad but can't flip a switch to make him happy.

I even played out today.  The bad argument we had yesterday, the shi*** comments about how I was going to screw up picking up our oldest from school today.  I simply said that I got it taken care of and drifted back off to sleep because I was going to only get 3 hours of sleep if lucky.  He did his you are going to f*** this up, it's in our nature to, he's going to get a call and he's going to have to deal with it.  I didn't engage.  I just went back to sleep. 

This morning before I left for work, I went it to say bye.  He grabbed me, pulled me under the covers and sounded like he was about to cry.  Squeezed me and said he loved me so much and asked me to stay a little before I had to leave.  I had 10 minutes to spare so I did.  It was a short lived moment where it felt like he actually loved me.  I already know though that once he gets out of bed, something will happen to where it sets him off and he gets mad at me for something.  It will probably be for me leaving my phone at home or forgetting to leave his bank card.  Most healthy people would brush it off as no big deal.  I already know it's going to be a big deal for him, a huge inconvenience that he's going to have to make an extra stop before he goes to work.  I see the patterns. Most of the time I can avoid them.  If not, I try to mentally prepare for the impending episode I know that's coming.  Honestly, if he doesn't make a big deal out of it... I'm a little suspicious.  Knowing when he gets mad the next time, he probably will say something about it.  He may appear to let it go... but he never really does.

Here's to hopefully a better day. 

[Frankee]

I was right about one part.  He got mad about the bank card.  Said "this is bs" and basically hung up on me.  *rolling eyes*.

[waverider]

This morning before I left for work, I went it to say bye.  He grabbed me, pulled me under the covers and sounded like he was about to cry.  Squeezed me and said he loved me so much and asked me to stay a little before I had to leave.  I had 10 minutes to spare so I did.  It was a short lived moment where it felt like he actually loved me.  I already know though that once he gets out of bed, something will happen to where it sets him off and he gets mad at me for something. 

"love' and "hate" are very closely interchanged with "need" and "dont need" in the BPD world. Often used to describe the feeling of the moment only.

Honestly, if he doesn't make a big deal out of it... I'm a little suspicious.  Knowing when he gets mad the next time, he probably will say something about it.  He may appear to let it go... but he never really does.

Here's to hopefully a better day. 

If someone struggles to process emotions they dont work through them, so they dont fade, or really get over them. They simply switched them off and they get quarantined into the memory banks.

Then when a trigger occurs it can bring them back out again with the full strength of emotion they had when shut off. This  often simply adds validation to the emotional trigger that brought them out again. Often this results in the "kitchen sinking" of drama, when all evidence of similar issues are thrown back in your face.

It has similarities to PTSD, in fact Complex PTSD shows itself in similar traits to BPD but with more emphasis of constantly reliving the past.

[Frankee]

The mind is a complex wondrous thing.  Got whiplash from the yo-yo ride I'm on right now.  Yesterday was good.  Made me feel almost normal.  Not so much today.  I wrote an entire post about it with how much happened in a short period.  He even went to say in his rant that I'm trying to turn the kids against him and I know that he knows that as long as they are dependent on me... .he won't get rid of me... oh and how he's going to find another wife for them to call mommy.  Honestly... it made me livid.  Then saying I'm like HIS mother that is manipulative and they don't need to be around someone like that... did I mention his mother was literally a whore who abandoned him at 2 to his alcoholic abusive dad (serious mommy issues).  Later on when I was ranting to myself, I laughed.  I would love to tell him I think it is a joke that he thinks I'm replaceable.  I would love to see a normal emotionally healthy beautiful (since he doesn't date "unattractive" women) woman, step into my shoes and do what I do.  She may get swept up in his love haze, but once the honeymoon phase was over... bit** would go running for the hills like any other sane person.  Use to think it was him going through the women... starting to see that more than likely, it was mostly him scaring them off.  Think I have a touch of madness by staying and trying to make it work.

Finding as I learn more that the way I'm feeling about his episodes are changing.  No longer feeling threatened, intimidated, or scared.  More like defiant, sarcastic, and angry.  Now I haven't really applied those emotions to how I'm dealing with all of this.  To me however, those types of emotions aren't necessarily bad.  When I loose control of them they are.  If I am able to channel them into helpful tools to setting the boundaries and enforcing them, there may be hope for me.  It may seem weird how such "bad" emotions can be helpful.  Just like when he rages and uses anger to keep power and control of the situation.  It gives him that adrenaline rush.  So I need to be able to take that fuel, and turn it into some constructive. 

It also saddens me though.  Reading what I wrote, it makes it seems like I'm going to emotional warfare.  That's not what I wanted in a relationship.  I wanted to be in the kind of relationship where I can let my guard down, be myself, be comfortable being myself and not constantly wondering if the natural goofy sometimes clumsy silly personality I know I have will be crucified because I'm acting stupid and childish.  I know who I am.  I'm strong, caring, soft hearted, silly, goofy, happy, sometimes an airhead, funny, independent...   I so want to let that person run free, but he's squashed all of those traits I have.  I feel until I can get a grip on handling all of this better, that I have to be this emotionally checked out person who has to filter all my responses, words, even how I act.  They think they are the only ones suffering.  The person I am having to be with him, is not who I am.  I'm going to keep trying to apply these techniques and everything else when dealing with him.  But most importantly, I need to rediscover who I am and want to be.  I've lost myself trying to help him and I can't do it anymore.

[waverider]

  The person I am having to be with him, is not who I am.  I'm going to keep trying to apply these techniques and everything else when dealing with him.  But most importantly, I need to rediscover who I am and want to be.  I've lost myself trying to help him and I can't do it anymore.

This in effect the core message of this forum. If you need to stick a reminder somewhere, this is it

[snowglobe]

@Frankee,
You posts definetly struck a cord for me, it's like looking at my Doppleganger and realizing the dinamics. The always punishing mode, as if I'm supposed to redeem all the sins and heal all of the wounds that my uBPDh had inflicted on him over the years. The don't compare the life with pwBPD with walking on eggshells for nothing. My question is 1. What kind of support do you have in place? For me this forum and my closest friend are the confining outlets for someone to hold a mirror for a change and remind me that no matter what happens I will be ok. Just like you I'm hoping for a happily ever after, I see so many things that are wrong, that I often forget about the things that are right in our relationship. Stepping away from the victim role helps to see how responsible and committed my uBPDh really is. Just a thought, sometimes the actions speak louder then words... .
2. Focusing on myself helped me tremendously to imcrease my confidence.  I like to imagine on what would I do for a person that I love so much, like self grooming, education, food, please and give it to myself. I'm no longer looking for a substitution for my husband's love. I love me, and it's enough for the most part. I'm terrible at setting boundaries, and often find myself spreading myself thin. He hates when I fall asleep early, although I'm pulling all of the weight with kids and their schools, extracurricular, lunches and dinners. He provides no physical help with chores, as he considers that he is the only person working, I'm back to school.
When I hear about him replacing me, not loving me, unhappy, miserable I try to think that this angry rant isn't directed at me. In reality I'm the only person who is able to tolerate this, and in his eyes I'm the summation of all of the things that went wrong. I must be strong to keep my head above the water for 16 years. In concision, your story is in many ways typical of the BPD traits, I'm sending you a virtual hug. Being a survivor, keep on reminding yourself that you wouldn't get angry if you were a nurse at the mental Heath facility and your ill patient would tell you mean things. Treat it in the same manner.

[Frankee]

It makes me feel relief to hear that I'm not totally bat sh** crazy and others are experiencing what I'm going through.  My support... majority is this forum.  Honestly, before I found this place, I talked to a couple close friends.  They could only provide so much help and I started feeling like they were getting a little annoyed with all my drama and it wasn't right I kept venting to them.  They have their own problems.  All of this isn't something most of my friends and especially my family would ever understand.  I also know that the only thing my other family would tell me is that I need to leave.  That is not an option for me.  This is my family, I chose to be with him over my parents approval.  I pretty much let that relationship go up in smoke to be with this man and I'm going to fight for it.

It is understandable that in the midst of the constant bombardment of negativity, verbal and emotional abuse, to see all the good my SO has done for me and the family.  Yesterday I got pretty angry with him because he said I was like his mother who is manipulative, etc.  Then continued to pick up our baby and tell him that he doesn't need to be around a mother that is manipulative, that he grew up with a mom like that (she abandoned him at 2 to his abusive alcoholic father), how our baby needs to get use to not having a mom, how he wasn't going to let anyone hurt him, especially me, so on.  I got pretty steamed because I may not be perfect, but I love our kids and I would never do that to them.  I'll let a lot go, but I'm pretty sensitive when he takes jabs at my ability as a mother.  After I ranted to myself and calmed down, I realized it had nothing to do with me, it was a very deeply seeded unresolved resentment towards his mother. Think he was trying to protect his child version of himself.

I've been finding lately that posting... a lot... on here, has helped me work through a lot of my hurt, sadness, anger, resentment, confusion, you name it.  It's become my safe haven to express freely how I'm feeling, uninterrupted, and not having to worry about judgement.  He has done a lot.  I struggle to remember all the good when I'm trying to sort through the negative.  Recently, he traded his motorcycle for an RV so his brothers had a place to stay.  He packed us up and took us to a place where he knew I loved and thought we'd be happier.  We all have jobs, oldest child likes his school, the youngest child is growing so well, even the brother I thought might have a touch of depression has turned around and actually works a full time job now.

I agree that focusing on ourselves is key to making it through.  Some days I feel so down that I barely have the energy to make a grilled cheese for the kids before shooing them off to bed.  My sleep pattern is so broken that I'm not even sure how much sleep I get anymore.  Some nights I start to get angry because my husband will ask for a sand which, ask for a snack, ask for drink... .right when I'm just about to fall asleep.  I think sometimes he does it, just so I'll stay up with him, even though I have to get up at 6am.  Even worse is I do it.  It is easier to zombie walk to the kitchen to retrieve whatever item than to tell him to do it himself and then listen to him bi*** about how I'm lazy, never do anything... whatever nasty comment he thinks at the time.  All of this because I too am horrible at setting boundaries.  That's still a work in progress. 

I mean, by the time he wakes up... I have done everything with getting my oldest ready for school (sometimes a serious challenge), while having a toddler chase me around screaming to be held, while getting ready for work, getting his breakfast, letting the dogs get out, making sure he has everything for school, then going to work... you know, any mom would.  Even working almost 40 hours a week, I'm still responsible for the house.  My brother in law that watches the baby during the day doesn't do any housework or picks up.  I come home and the house in a tornado of toys, plates, glasses, soda cans, dishes... I've given up saying anything because nothing changes.

I also agree about the angry rants.  Sometimes I can detach, other times, it hurts like hell.  I try my hardest not to show the hurt because than he will throw it in my face that tears don't work on him, which make me angry... vicious cycle.  So I cry when I'm alone.  It's true though.  I am probably the only person in his life (besides his deceased father), that would deal with his tantrums and then still say, I love you.  Sometimes I don't think he feels that way. 

I know I need to change certain things if I want to have any sort of remote happiness, so that's my next phase in dealing with this.  I appreciate all the support.

[waverider]

It is easier to zombie walk to the kitchen to retrieve whatever item than to tell him to do it himself and then listen to him bi*** about how I'm lazy, never do anything... whatever nasty comment he thinks at the time.  All of this because I too am horrible at setting boundaries.  That's still a work in progress. 

Dont beat yourself over this. If it were just a few issues then boundaries would be easy, but it is a personality trait that affects everything. Boundaries are there to protect you against the worst of it, so accurately identifying what these issues are is a difficult thing. You will not be able to "boundary someone into normality". There will still be a whole lot of bending to dysfunction that you will need to just accept and learn to not let bother you.

Pay close attention to your triggers, in this case it may be being compared to his mother, this is a heads up for boundaries. pwBPD have a habit of honing into your triggers.

However, once you have some decent boundaries in place it makes it easier to accept other dysfunctions. The aim is to make your life easier not turn it into war zone. As you are dealing with an attitude, or process, it is not restricted to specific issues, so the drama just shifts. The idea is to let it shift and settle onto areas that  affect you less. If that's mindlessly grabbing snacks for him so be it.

No amount of boundaries will teach a duck to bark

[romanova]

@Frankee,
You posts definetly struck a cord for me, it's like looking at my Doppleganger and realizing the dinamics. 

This made me smile because that is exactly how I feel when reading Frankee's posts. It helps to vent, here or to someone you feel safe with. I have a best friend, she picks me up when I need it. When I feel like I'm putting too much on her, I come here. 

I have come to think that sometimes giving up and just drowning in my own stress is fine too because I can't be the strong and compassionate one at all times. One day I actually did yell out after endless sarcasm, blaming, and all that hell. I yelled: "Hey! You're talking bs and right now I have no tolerance for it. If you have something else more meaningful and kind to say, say it, otherwise shut the f*** up!" My husband's eyes opened so big and he got quiet. He just sat there with his shoulders down. I felt so-so bad but felt good at the same time. Ahh... .the silence! I had to turn my back and keep doing the dishes so that he didn't see how bad I felt. After a while he just got up and went about his business, followed by "I'm sorry" and a foot massage later in the evening :D

Last night though, as soon as I got home I could tell he was in complete dysregulation but was looking for an excuse to explode. He starts with "so, how was lunch? what did you eat? Oh, you got salad, I'm sure you enjoyed the walk there, was it with someone nice?" I said, "no, I just walked by myself and brought food back to the office". He goes: "I see, so you had someone waiting for you in the office. Lucky you, you guys get to see each other every day, all day long, must be nice, lucky ass!". From that I already knew the storm had been brewing. I felt like if it doesn't let out, the whole evening would be like that. So I asked him what was bothering him. He blew up immediately saying "I guess they changed the rules at your work. Usually Fridays are casual and people wear jeans but you had to wear your sexy jeans today maybe because you had to sit with someone. Of course, it makes sense why you put your make-up every morning and dress up every morning and get going. There must be someone. I know you have someone at work and you're sleeping with him and that's why you look all sexy. You don't give  a f*** about casual Fridays, you'll wear your sexy clothes whenever you want for that someone. You don't give a sh** about your family, your kids, you live for that someone at work and you have lunches and have fake meetings every day to let him touch you, but you never let me touch you when I want.".
Phewwwww!

After the whole back and forth and trying to calm him I asked him why he is not making his next appointment with his therapist. He said it doesn't make any difference since I am already head in the clouds f***ing someone else. I told him smth like "I hate to see you like this, I'm sure it hurts so much inside of you. But, listen, I can't fix it. There is no one else! You blame me for pushing you away, I do it when you are not in control of your emotions, because I don't like getting hurt and burnt. I have to get away from you because if I get burnt like it happened last year, I'll be down too, then both of us will be hurting." I also said "I push you to do this therapy because it helps. I wish I could fix things for all of us but I can't. I just can't". He yelled at me and said that I'm talking bs and putting everything on him and that therapy won't help anything. He says "just keep faking it until I'm maxed out again and get the hell out of this bs relationship". So-so hurtful, my God! He also said, again, that it is me who needs help and to fix my attitude. So, I told him that I actually believed over the years when he insisted I was a koo-koo, and that's how I went to speak with a few therapists and specialists only to find out that he needs to attend counseling.

I was so fed up at the moment and ready to argue and fight back. So-so ready! Come on, now, I am a person too and I have feelings too! But again, I had to stop myself and try to calm. Sucks to be the person who sees everything happening, but powerless to do anything to stop it. It is like watching America's Funniest Home Videos - you know the disaster is coming and you know that idiot is gonna hurt himself/herself but can't stop it. The only difference is that it is not funny at all and he grabs me to go down with him!

One thing that seemed to stop him from spiraling down even more was that I kept repeating it helps to talk to someone outside. I said that I don't understand everything he goes through, but his therapist does because he studied it. I also said that this kind of painful feelings are not something people are born with, it is developed. Apparently, kids watch their parents or try to learn from their parents. If the parents are too busy or if the parents themselves are hurting all the time, the kids learn that too. I said "honey, I would hate to see out toddler boy to have painful experiences when he grows up and I hope he doesn't see all the hurting we have in this house". That got him thinking. He went downstairs and didn't come up until late evening. He was all nice and quiet this morning. I don't know, maybe he is thinking now? Maybe he'll go back to therapy and finally signs up for group DBT? There is hope, always hope.
Thanks for "listening".

[snowglobe]

@romanova, it takes a lot of self restraint and emotional maturity to recognize the symptoms and stop oneself from self defending. One particularly bothersome part of BPD dynamics is how acutely aware we become of other people's moods. It's a curse and a blessing at the same time. I've personally learnt, like many of you to recognize the upcoming storm just be "hi" over the phone. Talk about the shades of grey... .I brace myself and prepare for the worse. Over the 16 years in these relationship not even once was I proven wrong, unfortunately. Our fights are more like "bare traps" that set me on a path of failure. Doesn't matter how long I can avoid the eggshells, he always finds a reason to snap and tell me that I'm" a sh$tty person, who is useless and incapable and hopeless". When you mentioned your toddler, my heart ached for him/her, my kids and myself. Growing up in a turbulent household with one BPD parent and other narcissistic/detached have set me on a course of searching for someone who made me feel the familiar dynamics and accustomed interaction style. Will my kids repeat this cycle too?.

[romanova]

When you mentioned your toddler, my heart ached for him/her, my kids and myself. Growing up in a turbulent household with one BPD parent and other narcissistic/detached have set me on a course of searching for someone who made me feel the familiar dynamics and accustomed interaction style. Will my kids repeat this cycle too?.

Hi Snowglobe,
Yes, it terrifies me too. I am so aware of what my kids may develop. That's why I am not going to just watch as it unfolds. I've gone through so much research to find what I could do to shield them from this kind of life full of suffering. Just like yourself, I recognize my upbringing and what it did to me. Although never diagnosed, my parents were the same - one BPD, one detached/codependent. Lucky for me, my mother is not the one with BPD. I say lucky because I've read somewhere that BPD mothers focus mostly on their kids while BPD fathers' focus goes to their spouses. So, I'd like to think that I was "spared" and grew up with only traits of whatever this is but not the full-blown disorder.

With my own kids, I am doing everything to make sure they are not neglected. I got started on this mission after reading Dr. Webb's book on childhood emotional neglect ("Running on empty". I was able to pinpoint the kind of neglect I got from my parents, it made so much sense why I would struggle in my adult life. My mission now is just one thing - to teach my kids to recognize their emotions. I didn't know about this until only last year, but I know it's not too late for them. Basically, my kids are encouraged to pay attention to what they're feeling and they understand that humans should feel all good and bad. It is all okay and there are ways to cope with every kind of feeling. Mama is always there if they need comfort, hugs and kisses are unlimited. The practice actually has taught me a lot about myself too. By now the kids pick up the ups and downs in my mood too and they know that mama is only a human so let her have her ups and downs. They actually offer a hug or help with whatever chore.

So, there is hope. I'm not hundred percent certain about this marriage and a happy ending but I am pretty sure about bringing up my kids with the least amount of damage possible. I plan to educate them about BPD when they are old enough to understand. That way they can start working on themselves before life starts throwing curve-balls at them

[Frankee]

So, there is hope. I'm not hundred percent certain about this marriage and a happy ending but I am pretty sure about bringing up my kids with the least amount of damage possible. I plan to educate them about BPD when they are old enough to understand. That way they can start working on themselves before life starts throwing curve-balls at them

This was an exact feeling I had recently.   No matter what happens in my life, I want to so the best I can by my children.  They have their whole lives ahead of them.  If I can do right by them and raise them to be healthy emotionally stable adults, than all of this hasn't been in vain.  They don't have to be perfect, I just want to guide them away from making the same mistakes I did and to learn to process emotions normally.  My BPD husband has serious abandonment and mother issues.  I refuse to let our children grow up with those same problems.

[Frankee]

Oh, you got salad, I'm sure you enjoyed the walk there, was it with someone nice?" I said, "no, I just walked by myself and brought food back to the office". He goes: "I see, so you had someone waiting for you in the office. Lucky you, you guys get to see each other every day, all day long, must be nice, lucky ass!". From that I already knew the storm had been brewing. I felt like if it doesn't let out, the whole evening would be like that. So I asked him what was bothering him. He blew up immediately saying "I guess they changed the rules at your work. Usually Fridays are casual and people wear jeans but you had to wear your sexy jeans today maybe because you had to sit with someone. Of course, it makes sense why you put your make-up every morning and dress up every morning and get going. There must be someone. I know you have someone at work and you're sleeping with him and that's why you look all sexy. You don't give  a f*** about casual Fridays, you'll wear your sexy clothes whenever you want for that someone. You don't give a sh** about your family, your kids, you live for that someone at work and you have lunches and have fake meetings every day to let him touch you, but you never let me touch you when I want.".

He yelled at me and said that I'm talking bs and putting everything on him and that therapy won't help anything. He says "just keep faking it until I'm maxed out again and get the hell out of this bs relationship". So-so hurtful, my God! He also said, again, that it is me who needs help and to fix my attitude.

Sucks to be the person who sees everything happening, but powerless to do anything to stop it. It is like watching America's Funniest Home Videos - you know the disaster is coming and you know that idiot is gonna hurt himself/herself but can't stop it. The only difference is that it is not funny at all and he grabs me to go down with him!

So I highlighted parts that really stuck out.  Recently he got mad.  I work at a time share resort that it's main occupancy is older couples who are retired or travel a lot.  He pulled the same nonsense on me about cheating.  He added though, well you are around a bunch of old men that have money and nothing better to do and you have easy access to rooms... .smh... .not saying anything bad about older people (I will be one at some point)... but oh hell no!  He was being totally absurd.  I said that I would never cheat on him, he means to much, and with old men?  Are you being serious?  He was like, well it just make them try harder.  Since I've worked here, I haven't been hit on by any of them.  Most of them are nice and the mean ones are just being grumpy for whatever reason old people get grumpy.

Oh!  And if I ever mention HIM getting professional help, all of a sudden, I am the one who's a narcissist or have something seriously wrong mentally or I'm a habitual liar, I am the one who needs an attitude adjustment, he's trying to change who he is and I'm not doing anything.  As you can see, that road has proven to give me nothing but grief and hurt. 

I laughed at the last part.  It really is like those videos, you see in coming, but all you can do is watch and wait for the "OH! Ouch!" part.  I laughed at the reference, but it really isn't funny when I'm the idiot.

This is also the kind of tailspin.  Couple days ago, big falling out we had.  I did my best to appear normal and continue on with my day.  Yesterday was pretty quiet, kind of avoided him discreetly, but anytime he showed me affectionate, I welcomed it.  I was being careful not to show any signs of rejection towards him.  I knew if I did, it would throw him back into one of his fits.  Last night, when everyone went to bed, I gave him a back rub.  Didn't talk, just showed him that I still care about his well being.  Next thing I know, he grabs me and just... .wow... .decided to take out aggressions in a more pleasurable way. 

This is my life.  He is the extreme on the black/white aspect.  One day, he's screaming at me, saying incredibly horrible cruel things... than later on, he acts like he can't get enough of being "together".  Which is the bait and trap.  This is who we were in the beginning, just without the "I hate you and cruel mean things being said" part.  We were both wild, crazy, and passionate about each other.  I would spend so much time, dolling myself up, making sure I was clean and smelled nice, walk into his bar on the weekends, dressed up all sexy... and I would see him.  In his leather cut, tight fitting tank, nice fitting jeans, that big belt buckle, all ripped looking... and we were like fire.  We'd go in the back and have our way with each other and party and drink all night, then go in the back and do it some more.  We'd go out and create mischief.  I was his cool sexy little dangerous Ol' Lady who held my own.  We'd sneak off to bar bathrooms, we'd crash other biker's bars and party... .So he thinks he's the only one with self identity issues... I look back at myself then and wonder what happened.  Now I feel like this shell of a person who is struggling just to make it through the day with her sanity in tact and constantly feeling empty and hurt.  That's my struggle.  Knowing who I can be and not having the strength to be that person again.  Don't get me wrong, I know that as we get older, having kids, and working full time that the partying and drinking die down... but the person who I was... strong, courageous, could handle anything... I miss her.  Wish I could be her again.

[Meili]

  Frankee

First, I wanted to say that I completely get what you were saying about who you were then and who you are now. I no longer have patches on my back, but there are days that I truly miss the life.

Anyway, that doesn't exactly help with what you are going through... .

You said that "this is your life." Well, it doesn't have to be that way. It only takes one partner to change the dynamics of a relationship. If you change your side of things, he'll have no choice but to change his. You just need to find the strength that Ol' Lady that could hold her own had (because I guarantee that you still have it inside of you) and put it to good use.

[Jej]

It sounds like you're at the end of your tether Frankee. I can certainly identify. I do everything really in our house, but still the tinniest thing can be used against me for whatever reason I don't know. What I have learned over the years is that no matter what I do, what lengths I go to, it still isn't enough. That makes me feel sad, used, and embarrassed, that I know someone is putting unfair demands on me, and I'm still here. I'm hoping for change, time will tell, but I think what you can do is learn to react differently. We have just had a row over nothing, he said hurtful things, didn't listen, left the room, and I have let him.  I won't follow him and pick up the row, won't agonise over it, as I know in this case he was acting unfairly. I've learnt that trying to argue that point only brings more grief. Instead, I'll leave it, if he realises and apologises then great, if not, then its another row to add to the collection of daily run ins we now have. You can react less to their behaviour, calmer, more logical. I even ignore the blustering and moaning, and just get on with my stuff, there is so much to occupy myself with. Its not a solution, but makes it easier for me, and stops me losing my cool. I focus on me and my children, and don't let him knock me off course anymore. It hasn't always been like this, I've had dreadful times where I've not known where to turn. I hope things improve for you.

[Frankee]

I appreciate the feed back.  Kind of have a new feeling.  It's feels like I'm in an Etch a Sketch (just goes to show my age on the reference).  Whenever I have a clear picture about to be made out, he grabs it, shakes it up, and hands it back to me.

I almost found myself thinking about not saying anything because of the embarrassment I'm feeling.  All this time threatening that he was going to cheat and that he would get mad at me for not brining women around anymore.  I use to bring women over for fun.  It's harder now though.  After two kids, my body isn't that 20 something year old who was comfortable wearing just about anything or even my birthday suit.  Not to mention having a 17 month old who doesn't sleep through the night.  It pains me on top of that, is I think I lost a little bit of respect for him.  I always admired his ability to withstand temptations and opportunities.  He's an attractive man and women take notice.  I'm not blind.  That's how he reeled me in.  That ruggedness, smooth baby talk, rumbling when he's pleased.  Last night he took a shower and left his phone.  I was careful at peeking at it and normally I would trust him, but something was nagging at me.  I found a secret email.  Nude pictures of him sent to about four different women from craigslist.  Couple said he was married and the woman could join him and his wife or just have him, others were just trying to hook up with them... .felt nauseated and my heart was beating out of my chest.  He's threatened before, but not he's actually doing something.

It is confusing though.  I was crushed.  We had been "together" right after he sent the pictures out.  I was angry and wanted to yell at him.  I knew that wouldn't get through.  It would just push him farther away into possibly actually doing something.  So I used guilt.  He came out, I cuddled up to him and told him that I know things hasn't been great between us (he interrupted me and said didn't want to talk about it) I simply said, I was saying that because even though it's been like that, I love you very much and you mean everything to me.  I have mixed emotions.  This morning I was still feeling queasy from what I saw.  I just wasn't mad.  I felt, calmer.  It's like, I tried so hard to make things better (even though it was a train wreck half the time) and I took it.  His rages, his emotional and verbal abuse, bent over backwards for him.  I still stood there, held him and said it's okay, I love you.  Now, he is messaging other women, because he had a massive fall out and screamed at me and told me his whole life story, which I am familiar with.  He warned me (didn't know if he was serious), telling me he's going to do what he wants, f*** anybody he wants, etc etc.  Guess he was. 

I know me screaming at him will push him further into these whores arms.  I know confronting him will just make he attack me on how I'm a prude and the sex has gotten boring and he's not going to do "this" with just me anymore.  How messed up emotionally am I that, I'm sitting here, not even really mad.  Pretty hurt though.  It just now feels like all of this guilt, emotional blackmail, gas lighting, etc. has no hold over my head.  I may be a ditz at times, I may forget to do things, or lie when I'm afraid of the reaction (I usually do it when trying to explain what I did doesn't make sense to him and he says I'm stupid or something).  I am however loyal.  I have never cheated, never even flirted or led another man on the entire time I have been with him.  Put up with all the times he accused me of running off the women that came over because they never came back.  Even now, with him doing what he's doing, there's no way in hell I would.  There is no eye for an eye in situations like this.  I feel lighter though.  He may sit there and accuse me of the one being unfaithful or hiding things, but I know I never have, so I have peace of mind no matter what he says. 

I will probably get some negative feedback because with some people, cheating is the final straw.  It use to be the end to my end.  I just now understand how you can empathize or try to understand with people's situations, but will never really now until you are front seat.  As much as it hurts me, I'm not going to let it keep me down.  I'm going to find the inner strength I had before.  My kids needs me to be strong and take care of them.  For anyone who says that it's more toxic to stay with a spouse and be unhappy than leave and be happy.  It's not that cut and dry.  He is a wonderful father.  Our kids love him very much.  They are excited when he comes home, they love playing with him.  He's even done better about not yelling in front of them.  Our baby even fell asleep with he was chewing my ass out... just because the tone he was using wasn't threatening.  I however understood the words.  Oh and the whole, don't put your kids before your spouse, may apply in a normal emotionally healthy relationship, but are bent in my situation.  I am attentive to my SO, but I am also the majority caregiver of the children, even when he's home too.

I haven't made the best choices in life and I'm slowly coming to terms with it.  I do know however that I can make a choice that will impact two little boys.  They need us both.  If I left, they would have abandonment issues like him, if I tried to take them, he would decimate me in court.  He's a paralegal and has spent more than his fair share in the system and I know has the capacity to make even outlandish stories seem real.  I would lose, no doubt.  So I will change.  Not for him, but for myself and our boys.

[romanova]

I know me screaming at him will push him further into these whores arms.  I know confronting him will just make he attack me on how I'm a prude and the sex has gotten boring and he's not going to do "this" with just me anymore.  How messed up emotionally am I that, I'm sitting here, not even really mad. 

I had to chime in here, Frankee. Nothing you do or say is pushing him into cheating. I've been married to my BPDh five years now and have tried everything. Yes, by now I've become shockingly indifferent to his cheating, but trust me, I've tried everything but it didn't change a bit.

You sound like pretty open-minded when it comes to your intimate life, I am not. From the time he and I started dating, no other man has come near me, because I didn't allow. Blushing as I say this, but there are always admirers wherever I go. But I uphold my values and keep my manners as the good wife. We both are brought up in an islamic environment, so intimacy and marriage side is pretty strict. BPDh though goes to all extremes but frantically tries to hide everything from everyone. I've found out because I went through his phone.

Okay, get this. After cheating, porn watching, secret apps, and what not for 3-4 years, he one day went and had sex with another man. Yep, when you think it doesn't get any worse, it comes back to kick in the arce. Something died in me that day, hasn't come back alive. I didn't know this until we were back again and giving it another try. I felt disgusted with myself for sleeping with him, I still do once in a while. I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone with a different orientation out there, but it was like feeding a lb of bacon to a vegan person, it is just not me.

Anyway, cheating never stops. It is not because you did or said something, it is something that they do. If it makes you feel any better, I've read that fooling around with those people is less of a threat to them because they are not bonding with them emotionally. If you've paid attention, it'll be always someone who is less than you. They feel that if they are not emotionally attached to the person, it is easier to get the physical needs but discard them easily too. It also makes them feel better about themselves when they are with someone who is "less" than them (i.e. they feel more superior, helps them with self-esteem issues. Short-term, of course, if that makes sense).

I am at the end of the rope too, just buying time to give it one last push. But it does hurt no matter what, especially being a woman. It takes a toll on your self-esteem, self-worth. Please remember that you could be a freaking super-model or an ogre from the woods, physically or personality-wise, it won't make a difference in their behaviour. It is all about how ugly and worthless they feel inside.

Hugs and keep strong.

[Frankee]

Anyway, cheating never stops. It is not because you did or said something, it is something that they do. If it makes you feel any better, I've read that fooling around with those people is less of a threat to them because they are not bonding with them emotionally. If you've paid attention, it'll be always someone who is less than you. They feel that if they are not emotionally attached to the person, it is easier to get the physical needs but discard them easily too. It also makes them feel better about themselves when they are with someone who is "less" than them (i.e. they feel more superior, helps them with self-esteem issues. Short-term, of course, if that makes sense).

I am at the end of the rope too, just buying time to give it one last push. But it does hurt no matter what, especially being a woman. It takes a toll on your self-esteem, self-worth. Please remember that you could be a freaking super-model or an ogre from the woods, physically or personality-wise, it won't make a difference in their behaviour. It is all about how ugly and worthless they feel inside.

Weird as it may sound, but that's actually kind of comforting and actually make sense.  He doesn't associate sex with love.  To him, he can go be with a woman one night and then never speak or think of her again.  He even kept a journal or black book of names of women he's been with... which should of been a huge "STOP" sign for me... but I ignored it because I bought into the whole "I'm different, special, not like them" crap.  He does have a touch of narcissism.  He thinks very highly of himself and at times has this image in his head where he's going to have a "polyamorous" relationship with me and another women or if I don't like it, then he said he'll have a gf on the side.  Didn't stop there though.  Even went to saying he's going to find another women to have more kids with.  This isn't the dark ages where he can find a town whore to own and reproduce with.  If he could ever find a woman that would, deal with all his bs like I do, be a second wife, AND have his kids AND be the good wife who keeps me in check... then I will gladly retract every thing I ever said negative.  That's how confident I am that it will never happen.  He will have a better chance at having a one night stand.

I am pretty open.  There are however things that I can't bring myself to do.  Which he had threatened to make me do.  When he mentioned bringing men home, I panicked and got emotional because he said before he respected me too much to do that (I don't know if he was trying to upset me or being honest he wanted to really do it).  When that was my reaction, he got pretty defensive and upset saying that his past sexual abuse has made him think of not "normal" things and if he has the urges to do something weird, than he wants to do them and doesn't need my judgement.  I got pretty hurt because I love him and I want to make him happy, but thinking about things like that make my skin crawl.  Nothing against him, I just also fear that if we did certain things that he felt disgusted by later, he may attack me saying that he knows I enjoyed it and I'm a whore, slut, etc.  Which is contradictory to what he's trying to do by hooking up with whores and sluts.

We do think differently about intimacy.  He probably sees these women as objects who are going to do whatever dirty disgusting little sexual favor or deed he wants.  Then when he's done, can throw them away like trash.  Me, I see them as everything I can't give him.  I see her being able to satisfy in ways that he has made clear that I can't... .this is what I mean.  To them... it's all about physical satisfaction and whatever rush they get.  For the other side... it's seeing all the things that they want, that we don't have and feeling like we can't give.  I get it, it's all physical appearance and a big act.  Any of these whores he's trying to hook up wouldn't be able to or want to deal with everything I do.  I have given him more patience, understanding, love, acceptance, than anyone else I can think of in his life.  This is where we are at.  Me, feeling indifferent about him probably going to start sleeping with other women.  Which will probably mean more disaster for our relationship because his guilt will start to project onto me and think I'm cheating and sneaking around and he will probably get angry or frustrated with me because his outside attempts don't go as he planned.  I just don't see this being a good thing for anybody.  Guess we'll see. 

One thing I do want to better at though is consistency.  I have seen that I have left his ocean of emotions take me down to where I'm tossed all around.  I want to be more consistent with the small things.  The way I greet him when he comes home, sending random text messages of little cutesy I miss you and thinking of you, taking better care of myself so I can feel better when he's around, always kissing him and saying I love you when we go to bed.  Regardless of our current situation or his inner struggles, they say doing things for your spouse that you did in the beginning helps keep the spark alive.  I might as well try, at least I will have peace of mind knowing that I didn't give up when we were down and out, that I kept trying even when I felt hopeless.  That kind of thinking I can live with.