This isn't quite verbal abuse, but what is it?

[lpheal]

This is an almost verbatim of an exchange with my wife yesterday. I have much worse interactions that are clearly abuse, but started thinking about how much negativity is in almost everything she says (and this is just a small example)…and it almost all sounds abusive when I think about it.

Me: (I send a text saying I’m leaving work and heading home)
She: (Calls me) “So…what are we going to have for dinner?”
Me: “One option is take-out, I could pick up something at (brand name) restaurant. Another…”
She: “Umm…no (disgusted tone). We have the stuff at home to make quesadillas…if you can go to the store and get a rotisserie chicken and manage to get one that is cooked properly.
Me: “Okay, that sounds good to me. I’ll pick one up. Do you need anything else from the store while I’m there?
She: “ (with irritated tone) I don’t know!”
Me: “If you think of anything, send me a text message…I’ll talk to you soon.”
She: (Hangs up without saying goodbye)

I’ve gotten pretty good at not reacting emotionally to what she says and keeping it factual. However, I started thinking she sounded like a pouting preadolescent. My interactions with my wife are almost like this constantly now. While I was driving I imagined a normal interaction:

Me: (I send a text saying I’m leaving work and heading home)
She: (Calls me) “I have a question about dinner, can you talk?”
Me: “Sure."
She: “We have the stuff at home to make quesadillas, was thinking we could have that for dinner. Would you mind going to the store and picking up a rotisserie chicken?”
Me: “I don’t mind, sounds good to me. Do you need anything else from the store while I’m there?
She: “I don’t think so, but I’ll let you know if I think of anything.”
Me: “Okay, just send me a text message if so…see you soon.”
She: “Bye!”

I'm not sure what to call it, doesn't quite rise to the level of verbal abuse... .or does it?

[Lakebreeze]

I've been pondering these same questions in my own relationship with my udBPD husband. I keep wondering if it's abuse or me being too sensitive. I hope others can shed some light on this but my own opinion is that maybe each exchange like you described isn't in itself verbal abuse. But constantly and continual exchanges like could certainly be considered emotional abuse. It's these exchages that convey they message that you don't deserve respect or kindness. They can really undermine a person over time. All the best to you!

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I hear you. I've been there as well. Every so often I need to remind myself what constitutes emotional, verbal abuse. Here is a link that I use to help refresh my memory.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/201609/when-is-it-emotional-abuse

I hope this helps.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, if not exactly verbal abuse, it's pretty doggone unpleasant! I have to keep reminding myself that my husband experiences his emotions in a much more dramatic and extreme way than I do. So the highs are higher and the lows lower.

He typically gets into a funk and then is crabby and cranky--and it's often directed at me, just because I'm within earshot, but not really about me. In the past, I used to confront him and ask what I had done to make him react so unpleasantly toward me and then he'd accuse me of being narcissistic--"You think it's always about you." Well, you better believe I do, especially when you act so petulantly toward me. I've since realized that this behavior can be triggered by having a slightly leaking tire on his sports car, needing to speak with his tax accountant, being upset about politics, you name it. So yes, it's often not about me but he sure can make it extremely disagreeable to be around him.

[lpheal]

continual exchanges like could certainly be considered emotional abuse. It's these exchages that convey they message that you don't deserve respect or kindness.

Thank you for the replies. I think you are right. The continual pattern of this probably is more in line with emotional abuse. I can't believe how detached I have become to it. I've gone from thinking it has anything to do with me, to representing the disordered thoughts of a disordered person.

But it's still no way to go through the rest of my life!

[lpheal]

I hear you. I've been there as well. Every so often I need to remind myself what constitutes emotional, verbal abuse. Here is a link that I use to help refresh my memory.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/201609/when-is-it-emotional-abuse

I hope this helps.

It helps a lot! Great article, thanks for sharing!

[teapay]

I wouldn't classify it as verbal or emotional abuse.  That kind of communication may be iritiating and unpleasant to experience to a reasonable person, particularly if it is ongoing, but it wouldnt rise to the level of abuse.

[lpheal]

I wouldn't classify it as verbal or emotional abuse.  That kind of communication may be iritiating and unpleasant to experience to a reasonable person, particularly if it is ongoing, but it wouldnt rise to the level of abuse.

Thanks for the reply. There are much worse conversations and behaviors that are clearly verbal and physical abuse, but I would say an exchange like this represents a typical day. I'm cataloging behavior patterns for my attorney, and haven't included these exchanges (and was wondering if I should or not).

Now when she threatens to cut off a certain body part of mine or spits in my face... .that makes the list.

[toomanydogs]

I wouldn't classify it as verbal or emotional abuse.  That kind of communication may be iritiating and unpleasant to experience to a reasonable person, particularly if it is ongoing, but it wouldnt rise to the level of abuse.

I agree with teapay here. My H is emotionally abusive, and he also texts as your wife does. The texts I tend to think of as his negativity--he'll never get the hot dog like he had when he was a kid, why aren't there any Carvels out here, why doesn't the Internet work, nothing ever works out. It's more like 'woe is me,' or his always being victimized by life.

The emotional abuse is much more dramatic. He calls me disgusting names. I'm not the only he calls names. He calls his Jewish P, a K**E; our landscaper a S**C or a Wet****, and once asked our landscaper to find someone to kill H's father. After all, landscaper is Mexican, and he was bound to know a killer-for-hire.

H also attempts to control friends. Last time, we talked (a while ago, as he's been "missing" since August), he told me how my friend had tried to hit on him. I suppose he thought by lying, I'd stop being friends with her.

He demanded that I not only fire someone who works for us but I not let the person on the property to swim. If I did that, H would come home.

One time when he was talking to me, I needed to go the bathroom. Badly. He wouldn't let me walk away until I started yelling that I had diarrhea. Seriously.

I believe he behaves this way with me to control me. Really, who tries to prevent someone from using the toilet?

H also has rage attacks where he breaks things, which was really scary to be around. Now he only breaks things in the guest house, so I'm not subjected to it. It was one of the conditions I demanded when we patched things up a few years ago.

But as that article so expertly illustrated, emotional abuse is really an attempt to control.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Personally, I would write all of it down. You may find interesting patterns. What seems insignificant today may turn out to be more significant later.  A few incidents does not necessarily constitute emotional abuse. The same behaviors repeated over time, however, could lead down a path of emotional abuse especially if there are other red flags that go along with it. It's difficult to tell solely from the incident you shared. Only you know your situation and what you're going through.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I believe that we kind of live in an overly-sensitive and easily-offended world some times, but, I have to add that a transcript can't always portray the feelings and meanings of a conversation.  Nor can it relate the history and inner workings of the relationship.  So, I am a little cautious, but will say that if you felt it was abuse, then it was abuse. 

My wife is passive-aggressive / waif type, and hates to be questioned, controlled, or doubted about money, child care, feminism, and a host of other topics.  She would be outright aggressive if I confronted her, but, I just don't engage.  And yet, at any given moment, she has a seeming willful-incompetence in any given topic.  She will claim that she can't do something, or can't do something such that it pleases me, or doesn't know something, can't remember, etc...   It's a subtle way to shift responsibility, accountability, and then projection and blame.  That can lead to anger, resentment, and other egg-shells, if not land-mines. 

A transcript wouldn't do it justice, and I'm not sure if it is defined as abuse.  But, it works out in our relationship to be manipulation - and I look at manipulation as abuse these days.  So, abuse it is. 

[lpheal]

There are two reasons I have been thinking about how to classify this low level non-stop negativity. The first I already mentioned (cataloging for attorney... .and I have not ever listed any of this type of stuff). 

The second is that I try to imagine what "success" looks like in this marriage. If I expertly navigate conversations, perfect communication skills, validate positive emotions, set boundaries for abuse and negative behavior... .I think I'm still left with this in the end. And my D3 is exposed to a very unhealthy relationship model growing up.

I can't get within 1,000 yards of these issues in a conversation. If she gets any sense I'm trying to talk about it, her defenses go up and she goes on the verbal attack against me. The funny part is she will agree about unhealthy it all is, how it is bad for D3, no way to live her life... .but I'm the cause of all of it, every time, end of discussion, shut up, shut up, shut up, **** you!"

Sorry

This is part of a final sanity check before I move forward, so thanks again for the feedback. I really appreciate it.

[teapay]

I don’t subscribe to the view that abuse is solely a subjective interpretation and hold that view as flawed.  It makes everyone an abuser at anothers whim and certainly we would be abusers to derange spouses.  Viewing abuse that way may give someone a quick hit of the “validation” pipe, but often the associated thinking and emotions are actually invalid.  Historically, when we validate something we try to establish its correlation with what is real, so we can be rationally and reasonably confident that a perception is dealing with what is real, and we can rationally and reasonably use that information.  It is an important and useful correlation for living and having constructive relations with other people.  This is not working properly in immature or otherwise mentally deficient.

While emotions exist as biological responses to stimuli, and can be perceived uniquely to individuals, they are not necessarily valid.  The emotions need to correlate with what is real on a rational and reasonable basis, which is the best we have to work with, but which generally works in the material world.  I’ve seen pushed in psychological circles, the idea that all emotion/thoughts are valid.  This idea goes back thousands of years and has been fairly discredited for thousands of years, despite holding on in some circles.  The current psych version of it has been developed for the mentally ill to help them not tear themselves apart, feel crazy, damaged and empathized with so don’t discontinue treatments, to give treatments a chance.  Maintained it won't lead to a very functional life, but just people who are stuck-cash cows.  Like thoughts and actions, some emotions are valid and some emotions are not valid and it depends whether those emotions correlate to what is real on a rational and reasonable basis.  We have a rational mind that serves as a check on this chain of emotion through though through action, so we have many opportunities to get it right before we materialize something in the real world.

Also, it is very hard to defend yourself against charges of abuse based on the standard of subjective interpretation.  If you’ve never had to do that in the public square, be very grateful.  It is long and costly.  It is very easy to damage others with that charge, but without a lot of evidence, and it is often used to win a case or prolong it without merit.  It is better to deal with abuse in the world of straightforwardness and stick with traditional interpretations of it, because that is how most reasonable people view it.

[lpheal]

It makes everyone an abuser at anothers whim and certainly we would be abusers to derange spouses.  Viewing abuse that way may give someone a quick hit of the “validation” pipe, but often the associated thinking and emotions are actually invalid. 

This is a really excellent point you make. At times my wife has accused me of abuse and being "a monster" for causing her to feel, think, talk and act in the way she does. Then she can rationalize that I deserved to be kicked in the groin, because I was actually abusing her first. It's invalid though.

Writing exchanges like this down may be useful for me to document a pattern negative conversations to more completely understand our relationship and her behavior. It's another matter to show a list to an attorney or judge (and then have the documentation seen by my spouse) at a hearing. It would quickly turn into a he said/she said debate, especially if trying to convey her tone (putting "with irritated tone" in parentheses for example).

I'll be much better served by documenting very concise statements of fact. It leaves little to interpretation. "I want to murder you I'm so angry at you" is a direct statement. "If you try to leave me, I will take you down." She can deny saying it, but much harder to argue over the tone or nuance of it. Similarly, pictures of fingernail scratches on my arm or bruises on my chest are direct signs of physical abuse, and give a better just-the-facts summary to my side of the story. 

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, the more concrete the example, the better. I went to court with a friend some months ago and got to see this in action. She is a very tiny woman and her  6 foot tall neighbor pinned her to her fence with his tractor because of a property dispute, but didn't otherwise injure her. Later in public, she told him, "I wish you'd die. I wish your tractor would flip over on you and nobody would know to come help you." We were in court because he was trying to get a restraining order against her.

This guy has a history of being abusive to many neighbors and she had statements from several people about his violent tendencies. I was ready to testify about how he threatened me. For some reason, she downplayed the seriousness of the tractor incident--maybe she didn't want to be seen as weak.

But he spoke about her "death threat" and the female judge gave him a 6 month restraining order against her. All of her friends and neighbors were dumbfounded.

This speaks to how little time that courts give to presenting evidence. The judge did not want to see any testimony or statements about what a bad guy this guy is.

So I guess the rule of thumb is keep it simple.

[formflier]

lpheal,

Here are some ideas on how to cut out "unpleasant" conversation. 

Keep it simple... direct, be prepared to not have conversation... .if you can't have pleasant.


If you want to address it... .do it in the moment. 

blah blah blah if you can manage to get a properly cooked one... blah blah blah.

friendly tone:  "Hey babe... .how do you intend me to take the "if you can manage" comment?"

Listen:  she will likely distract and not answer.

still friendly... .don't blame:  "Hey... I'm in a tough spot emotionally today.  I need either some uplifting conversation with you... .or some quiet time by myself."  Do you have a preference?

What do you think she would do if you went down this path?

FF

[teapay]

Conservation that are important and might be triggering I usually conduct through email.  I takes the immediacy and tone away and documents the tone and content of what I want to say and gives me protection from false allegations on important issues.  It also documents my wife's responses and can catch commitments and falsehoods.  In some ways it gives her a chance to act appropriate.  She knows I'm using this as documentation of important issues.  So when strange stuff comes through you know the brain is compromised.

Honestly, though, outsiders really didn't take too much interest in what was going on in our home until her behavior start to place our kiDs a risk and then I needed documentation of it.  The rest didnt go far.  Her kicking you in the nuts probably won't go too far unless you got it documented, preferably in a police report, and even then people will want to see a pattern of Nutt kicking to make a major decision effecting your family

[lpheal]

friendly tone:  "Hey babe... .how do you intend me to take the "if you can manage" comment?"

still friendly... .don't blame:  "Hey... I'm in a tough spot emotionally today.  I need either some uplifting conversation with you... .or some quiet time by myself."  Do you have a preference?

If I went down the first road (which I have tried with other subjects), I'm usually accused of "being a jerk" even though I'm not sure how that is the case.

Also doesn't help to EVER admit any sort of emotional weakness. It gives her a future route of attack if she senses she has hit a nerve. It works best (for now) to keep things factual and keep moving.

[formflier]

 
And... .it may not work in your relationship... .or it may. 


So... she accuses you of being a jerk.  Don't engage on that comment... .at all. 

"I need to get back to how you want me to understand your "if you can manage comment""

She is trying to deflect... distract... .don't take the bait.

Do this once or twice more (assuming she doesn't explain how you should take it)... .then you leave the conversation.

"Let me know when you are ready to help me understand what you have said, I'm going to talk a walk and clear my head."


On the second point... .don't buy into "emotion equals weakness".  emotion is emotion.  don't "save" or "protect" a pwBPD from that.  Be authentic. 

I would agree that too many details will not help... .so... ."I'm in a tough spot... ."  big picture... .I'm human and have needs... .if you can't help, I will be caring for my needs.

Let her do... what she will do.

FF