Am I normal? Or, am I a normal guy?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

That's always the question I ask myself around my wife.

The truth is that it is sometimes hard to tell. Today was a lot like any other day, she needed to vent about me to me.

She's let me know that both me and my gender are substandard. Guys, and me in particular, seem incapable of multitasking. This puts the burden on her, because I'm not doing something or listening for something or some other thing. Instead, I'm focussing on one task at a time (horrors!) until I get it done. And while I'm focussing on that task I may not be sparing any cycles to listen to see if she is saying something to me (and not one of the other people in the room. After all, from context I should be able to figure out it was me she was talking to even though she didn't say my name.)

And if I'm not always listening to see if she's talking to me, I am not able to drop everything and jump to take care of the source of her annoyance right away. Because I should NOT finish doing what I'm doing, I should take care of her issue NOW! Oh, and since I'm an engineer, I should have to defend the choice of every other engineer to design a product that does not function in a way that is intuitive to her. Curse them.

Oh, and let's not get started on the way guys communicate. Completely inadequate. Especially when a male coach or scout leader sends out an email about logistics. It doesn't always include full details. Women would never make that mistake. Guys suck! But more to the point, I do all these stereotypical guy things so I suck. I'm guilty by association.

Now I admit, that I can tune out the world while I'm working on something. I admit, that I'm not always thinking about the optimal way to put dishes away, or that I could do a better job of communicating logistics. And I get that this could be a bit annoying. I also get it would be great if I could figure out everything that needs to be done without her ever mentioning it to me. It's all very stereotypical relationship humor material. Mars and Venus stuff.

But, if it's all normal, why do I feel so awful? It feels like I'm defective around her.

DH

[DearHusband]

That's always the question I ask myself around my wife.

The truth is that it is sometimes hard to tell. Today was a lot like any other day, she needed to vent about me to me.

She's let me know that both me and my gender are substandard. Guys, and me in particular, seem incapable of multitasking. This puts the burden on her, because I'm not doing something or listening for something or some other thing. Instead, I'm focussing on one task at a time (horrors!) until I get it done. And while I'm focussing on that task I may not be sparing any cycles to listen to see if she is saying something to me (and not one of the other people in the room. After all, from context I should be able to figure out it was me she was talking to even though she didn't say my name.)

And if I'm not always listening to see if she's talking to me, I am not able to drop everything and jump to take care of the source of her annoyance right away. Because I should NOT finish doing what I'm doing, I should take care of her issue NOW! Oh, and since I'm an engineer, I should have to defend the choice of every other engineer to design a product that does not function in a way that is intuitive to her. Curse them.

Oh, and let's not get started on the way guys communicate. Completely inadequate. Especially when a male coach or scout leader sends out an email about logistics. It doesn't always include full details. Women would never make that mistake. Guys suck! But more to the point, I do all these stereotypical guy things so I suck. I'm guilty by association.

Now I admit, that I can tune out the world while I'm working on something. I admit, that I'm not always thinking about the optimal way to put dishes away, or that I could do a better job of communicating logistics. And I get that this could be a bit annoying. I also get it would be great if I could figure out everything that needs to be done without her ever mentioning it to me. It's all very stereotypical relationship humor material. Mars and Venus stuff.

But, if it's all normal, why do I feel so awful? It feels like I'm defective around her.

DH

[Lalathegreat]

Oh brother. Well, I don’t know that the things you listed are “guy only” problems (I recognize many of these things in myself), but I certainly relate to feeling defective. My ex complained about me, to me constantly. CONSTANTLY.

And I bought it hook, line, and sinker. I tried so hard to change all of those things that annoyed him - at some point I figured out that it would never be enough because he would always find something about me he didn’t like. It wasn’t actually about me, it was about him needing to control me by making me run in circles trying to be what he needed.

So much fun - pfffffft 

[Notwendy]

Normal or not - you are a human being and being told something is wrong with you constantly isn't kind or loving. Sure, people make mistakes and can be told that, but having your core being criticized isn't necessary. You are who you are: a male, an engineer.

Some people can multitask and some prefer not to. It is even debatable whether or not multitasking is efficient. There is nothing wrong with people who prefer to not multitask.

The Mars and Venus stuff is helpful in terms of understanding each other, but not helpful as a platform to criticize. You are who you are. Nobody is perfect.

One thing to keep in mind is projection. Your wife says things from her own sense of shame and feeling defective- but she projects this on to others, and often the people closest to her.

It is hard to not hear what she says,  but you don't have to accept it as true. This could also be seen as a form of verbal abuse- she doesn't get to define you- and you can have boundaries about this. Author Patricia Evans has written several books on this topic. In her books the female is the one being verbally abused by the male, but these dynamics can go along with any relationship or gender. In them, she gives suggestions for boundaries on this.

[teapay]

If you are falling for your wife's nonsense, like most nons, it is likely because you lack a strong sense of self.  This makes you vulnerable to both your wife's nonsense and other outside enabling messages.  This is why recovery for the non, and maybe the relationship too, is primarily through developing a very strong sense of self, so you can filter out the garbage and set boundaries that are in tune with your own desires and values.  This is something you have absolute and total control of and you build it yourself and not let it be foisted on you by others, especially those who are mentally ill themselves and have no sense of self, but are driven by immediate primate urges and emotions.

[Notwendy]

Teapay is right on. One aspect of our boundaries is to filter what we hear and decide if it is true or not. A strong sense of self helps us to do this. One idea a counselor gave me was to replace what is said to me with something absurd- like you are a pink elephant or something equally absurd. If someone were to call you a pink elephant- would you question yourself or know that you are not one, and that what the person says isn't anything about you.

Still, hearing your wife say these things constantly can wear you down emotionally. I think one issue for nons is that we look to other people for approval and we want their approval. Sure, everyone wants some positive reinforcement. You may need to get this from - developing a stronger sense of self, your work, and perhaps some hobbies, counseling or a support group. I am sure I don't have to tell you not to get your positive reinforcement from another relationship - but some people do and that doesn't really solve the problem. The goal is to be your own source for your sense of self as much as possible but also to have some positive connections in areas of your life.

[teapay]

For a father married to a woman with BPD, I would recommend the following for developing a very strong sense of self and putting your life right.  Put yourself number 1 in your life and lift what you believe, think, want and do over everyone elses, but make sure you back it up with rationality, reasonableness and empirical reality.  Take total responsibility for your life.   You can listen to others, but don't put them above yourself and your interests. Don't be afraid of being wrong, you likely won't be if you are seeking your own interests rationally, and even so just take your lumps like everyone else in the world.

Doing this will likely to scare S out of the Non and the BPD.  The Non will likely make excuses and reasons why such a view is mean, uncaring, wrong, selfish, ect... (you know, the whole same train of BPD comments). The BPD is likely to just try to bash the Non back into line.

[DearHusband]

Oh brother. Well, I don’t know that the things you listed are “guy only” problems (I recognize many of these things in myself), but I certainly relate to feeling defective. My ex complained about me, to me constantly. CONSTANTLY.

Thanks all. Truth is, she's depressed and blames me, which is difficult.  "Listen to me", she says. Left unsaid is, "I want to be sure you hear the critical thing that's coming next." Today after work it was that my conversation with my brother on the phone was too loud, the Christmas lights I put up came on, via timer, a few minutes too late, and the candy I bought from a charitable solicitor was the wrong kind.

It's not me. It's not me. It's not me. But, it is tiring.

DH

[Cat Familiar]

Yeah, the endless complaints get old. And forget about trying to please her. That's a black hole that can never be filled.

Like Lala, I too, recognize lots of these "gendered issues" in myself. I get really task-orientated and can be oblivious to his issues at times. Before I got together with my current husband, my previous boyfriend always wanted to "talk about the relationship" and I'd cringe.   I'm not as sensitive to feelings as I might be, and certainly waaay too brusque and far too candid.

I think teapay has some good ideas about honoring your own truth and backing it up by being reasonable and responsible. It's taken me a long time to let go of what people think about me. I don't want to step on toes, but if someone is purposefully sticking their toes under my boots, it's not my problem.

The things she says to you are flat out abusive. Like formflier says, "Take your ears somewhere else." Nobody deserves to be a target of abuse and the best way to avoid it is to refuse to participate by being a listener.

[Panda39]

I admit, that I'm not always thinking about the optimal way to put dishes away... .

This gave me a chuckle    I'm on these boards because my SO has an uBPDxw and she once told him he was abusive because he re-arranged the dishes that she put in the dishwasher so he could fit more dishes in it... .so silly.

I agree with what the others have said it, it's about knowing yourself and not buying the narrative/the criticism/the gaslighting.  I think that mindfulness can be really helpful here.  I have to be very mindful when I'm around my very critical mom.

Below is something I posted on another thread and describes how being mindful works for me... .

Mindfulness, I have to practice this when with my mother (not BPD but very critical).  It's like being in the interaction but also outside of it like an observer.  It helps the Panda daughter in the interaction get the detached observations of the observer Panda.

So for example mom cuts me off when I'm talking... .as her daughter my feelings are hurt,I'm not being heard, I'm invalidated but the observer Panda will see that what I'm saying makes my mom uncomfortable, or embarrasses her, or makes her feel I'm a bad refection on her... .what do we have in common here?  Her reaction is all about her, it has nothing to do with me.  I'm not uncomfortable about the topic, or embarrassed, and I'm not even thinking about how I reflect on her.  Observer Panda tells me the reason she cut me off isn't about me at all it's about her.  I am then able to not take it personally.

My little mantra... .This is about her this isn't about me.

More on Mindfulness... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

I know that being with someone with BPD can be overwhelming and exhausting but mindfulness is another tool for your tool belt.

Take Care,
Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

I will say that normal means having quirks and outright flaws.  Yes, hopefully you're normal.
I realize that I have traits that can be difficult.  One is a sense of order. I blame my German ancestry.  I might think it's too important to clean tools and put them away, or use something properly, or, follow directions.  I have had to loosen up a lot on this in order to be a good parent.  But, I try.  And believe me, you certainly want me as your mechanic working on your car.  I balance this with another annoying trait in that I can hardly bear to throw anything away - for fear of needing it later, being able to fix it later, or (I guess) of running out of resources.  (blaming my somewhat impoverished youth).

Early in my marriage, I had beliefs about dong things, and was probably too rigid.  My uBPDw took this behavior trait as disapproval and criticism.  So, she reacted with rage, followed by silent treatment, withholding attention, affection, sex, etc.  It was horrible.   I was deeply depressed and unhappy for the first two years of marriage and regretted getting married. But, I "followed directions" and stayed faithfully married.  My wife was offended by me keeping things around too. 

I think it's important to look at yourself with a lot of compassion, and look at others with the same.  There is a difference between being annoying, quirky, and imperfect, and being a psychotic BPD-styled abuser.  I maybe was not easy to live with.  My wife is downright passively-destructive and toxic, and has gutted me in much of what I should have for joy in life.   There's a difference between defective and destructive.

[barnowl]

Put yourself number 1 in your life and lift what you believe, think, want and do over everyone elses, but make sure you back it up with rationality, reasonableness and empirical reality. ... .

Doing this will likely to scare S out of the Non and the BPD.  ... .The BPD is likely to just try to bash the Non back into line.

Welcome to my world. After a 20+ year career of placating my BPD-ish wife, I got professional help (at her insistence!) and it all points in the direction of placing my needs and desires first and letting her basically wallow and suffer in BPD hell. No more rescuing her. Of course, my wife is high-functioning enough to immediately notice the change, and now has solid "proof" that I no longer love her because I'm finally placing some emphasis on what's good for me instead of focusing exclusively on what's good for her. We're on divorce attorney visit number 2 for the week and holding, number 3 was scheduled for tomorrow but I think got cancelled? This is her bashing tool of choice since I was rather unfortunately clear about my desire for reconciliation and I haven't been able to convincingly portray that I've changed my mind on that yet.