Are borderlines jealous of the other's parents bond with their child.

[Newyoungfather]

Hello Again Everyone,
I always keep a journal of items that come up during custody exchanges and times where I'm with my uBPD (doctor's appointments). I've noticed she gets upset when my son laughs and plays with me and gives me hugs.  I wondering since her mother molested her she never had a true bond and that's why she get jealous.  Is jealousy like this something that's associated with BPD.

[Panda39]

Fear of Abandonment is at the heart of BPD so it is probably fear that your son will abandon her for you.  There is also a lot of black and white thinking so she probably can't understand that your son can love her and you... .she most likely feels that he should love her or you.

Panda39

[MidwestNative]

My therapist explained it once as every time your BPD ex does something that seems irrational (like hating that you and your son are bonding), remember that they are operating from a deep sense of shame. From childhood trauma they have learned they are not worthy and now they believe they are terrible parents. So they over compensate, and bounce between shame and utter hubris. To me this seemed crazy. I mean my partners uBPD ex constantly acts like she is the greatest parent, tells my partner what a terrible father he is, and tries to control every aspect of my SS's life. But it helped to understand that these reactions were from a deep sense of shame.

It can be incredibly sad though because it contributes to PAS. My partners uBPD ex accused his of sexually abusing his son when he was 3 months old because he "took too long' to change diapers. Changing diapers was the only time he was allowed to touch his son so he did take a long time; making eye contact with his son, singing little songs, bonding with his son. She hated this (but not more than she hated changing diapers) so she eventually left the house and accused him of child abuse in order to force a civil investigation. Until recently my partner was afraid to be "too affectionate" with his son. But now he's realized his son needs this love and affection because he rarely gets it at home.

I just want to tell you, you're an awesome dad. Keep loving your son and giving him all the affection and love you can pour into him. That is what he will rely on in the future.

[Turkish]

Another female who was molested by her mother. We have a couple of mdsa (mother daughter sexual abuse victims) on the Coping and Healing board... .

You might find some answers going through the blog posts on this site: www.drcachildress.org/asp/Site/ParentalAlienation/index.asp

I also follow him on Facebook,  and he often posts succinct descriptions of the attachment based pathologies which describe what's going on with the narcissistic or borderline parents very well.  He recently posted a good summary. 

How is your relationship with your kid? Do you observe changes in his behaviors towards you due to his mother's?

[livednlearned]

I've noticed she gets upset when my son laughs and plays with me and gives me hugs. 

My ex was like this, too.

If you take James Masterson's view of BPD, then her behaviors and reactions are a function of having no real sense of self (one of the reasons why people with BPD might display zero boundaries), which means she struggles to experience others as separate. Either you are part of her, or you are not. She may view her son as part of her. You are not.

So, since she is no longer bonded to you, her son can no longer be bonded to you. To see him expressing feelings that she doesn't share creates a feeling of fear, because it suggests he might be separate from her. And that triggers a feeling of abandonment.

Like MidwestNative said, this can lead to alienating behaviors. She may try to erase your son's feelings and get him back to feeling the way she wants him to feel, to avoid that sense of abandonment.

I don't know what the answer is. I tried to create an emotionally validating environment to offset the invalidation, but depending on your circumstances, you might want to read Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison in case your son's mom starts to gain some serious traction.

[Newyoungfather]

@MidWestNative-WOWWWW this happened to me, my son was crying shortly after birth and I went down to give him a kiss and change his diaper and I got BPD rage for doing this.
@Turkish-Yes I've noticed changes, I found out that the mother of my child teaches my son NOO associated with dad.  Currently I filed a custody modification and one of the items is co parenting counseling and therapy for the child.  I also switched jobs which gives me more time with my son so I'm praying this may help.

[Turkish]

I've found Childress able to explain the pathology in a succinct manner around wish I can wrap my wolf brain:

https://en-gb.facebook.com/pg/Dr-Childress-Parental-Alienation-279508045407096/posts/

The third diagnostic indicator of AB-PA (the persecutory delusion) is a key diagnostic feature of the pathology. This is the diagnostic indicator that clearly separates this pathology from all other pathologies in all of mental health.

3.) It explains the obsessive fixation of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent for maintaining the pathology – the narcissistic/(borderline) parent is using the reenactment of their own childhood trauma pattern (the false “abusive parent”/”victimized child”/”protective parent” narrative) to work through their own childhood trauma which is at the core of their personality pathology.

Psychologically, in the pathological trauma-mind of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent, “the child” in the false trauma reenactment narrative is BOTH the current child AND the narcissistic/(borderline) parent as a child.

Psychologically, in the pathological trauma-mind of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent, they are “protecting” BOTH the current child AND themselves as an abused child. In the common culture, this is called "crazy" - in professional psychology it is called "psychotic" - an encapsulated persecutory delusion.

Emphasis mine. 

I also was on the receiving end of much projected anxiety when S7 was an infant such that I didn't want another child. 

Joint outings have been ok,  but last Christmas I had almost had enough.  At Christmas in the Park, then S6 stepped off an inch high curb and twisted his ankle.  I was on point in the crowd,  but was keeping an eye on the other three. S6 cried a little and I rushed over.  He didn't even fall.  Their mom asked what happened,  then turned to me and said,  "why weren't you watching him!" She was actually closer to him.  I didn't say anything.  Her anxiety was through the roof that night,  and I concluded that the mistake was picking her up at her parent's' house,  full of people.  Some FOO trauma was activated.

[MidwestNative]

It explains the obsessive fixation of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent for maintaining the pathology – the narcissistic/(borderline) parent is using the reenactment of their own childhood trauma pattern (the false “abusive parent”/”victimized child”/”protective parent” narrative) to work through their own childhood trauma which is at the core of their personality pathology.

This is really interesting @Turkish. I find myself often quite consumed by the pathology of BPD, especially because it seems like a disorder many therapists don't even quite know how to handle. I've heard it explained as shame, as not having a true self, as a need to control and be perfect, of disordered black and white thinking, and also now as recreation and an attempt to heal past trauma. I think probably all of these are true in some sense. And of course I think my need to understand is to try to regain some small sense of stability; like okay at least now I know where the terrible is coming from even though I can't stop it.

Two thoughts though for everyone: Does knowing the pathology make you more empathetic? And what impact does empathy for your BPD ex have on you?

I guess my main big question is how to stop this cycle. If BPD parents repeat their trauma, in the end their traumatize their own kids. How as the "other" (and in our case, non custodial) parents can we help protect from this trauma?

[MidwestNative]

WOWWWW this happened to me, my son was crying shortly after birth and I went down to give him a kiss and change his diaper and I got BPD rage for doing this.

I'm so sorry that she reacts like that @newyoungfather. For MONTHS until the custody order was in place my partner wasn't allowed to see his son alone because she insisted on being there. She said SS needed to be breastfed every 15 minutes or he was too hungry (He was 6 months old at this point. She used breast feeding until he was more than two as a way to diminish time my partner could spend with him. And to infantalize SS. )

What is your current custody arrangement? Do you have primary physical custody?

[livednlearned]

Two thoughts though for everyone: Does knowing the pathology make you more empathetic? And what impact does empathy for your BPD ex have on you?

There are two books that helped me build empathy. One is Buddha and the Borderline, written by a woman who was diagnosed with BPD.
I also found James Masterson's Search for the Real Self helpful, as a way to make sense of the core pathology, and develop empathy for the emotional chaos and attachment failures that a person with BPD experiences.

A lot of new neuroscience research hints at irregularities in the BPD brain, and suggests there are genetic components, which makes perfect sense. So then, in a nature/nurture sense, these sensitive genotypes can fail to thrive in invalidating environments, however you describe it (childhood trauma, lack of goodness of fit between parent/child, etc.). This isn't to blame the families, because creating validating environments is not very intuitive, imo.

Masterson's work is more focused on the invalidating environment part, perhaps putting too much emphasis on the primary parent (especially the mom). So in that sense, it's not as PC as work by Gundersen, a leading BPD expert who helped get the diagnosis into the DSM, and who focuses on the empirical research approach so that it can be studied like other mental illnesses.

I guess my main big question is how to stop this cycle. If BPD parents repeat their trauma, in the end their traumatize their own kids. How as the "other" (and in our case, non custodial) parents can we help protect from this trauma?

Learn everything you can about creating validating environments. And how to counteract parental alienation (a BPD form of abuse) -- Dr. Craig Childress has written a lot about this, and so had Richard Warshak (Divorce Poison). I also highly recommend Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy, which is more about how to raise an emotionally resilient child when one parent has BPD (there are materials in Lesson 5 to the right that might also help).

And to be honest, reading compassionate books about BPD can be very helpful because the skills are effective not only with BPD but with other people. I use the skills with my SO, my S16, and SD20 and SD23 as much as I can. Loving Someone with BPD by Shari Manning and Overcoming BPD by Valerie Porr are two good ones for starters.

Because I know you have a ton of time to read 

The skills won't cure BPD, but they do increase the odds that you will protect your SS from the worst of his mom's disordered behavior.

I think my son would be in good shape except I suspect he inherited the same sensitive genotype his dad has. S16 is definitely an "emotionally sensitive person," and would probably be predisposed to depression and anxiety regardless of the trainwreck that was his childhood.