Got split severely last night by my 13yo daughter

[Parents! Get help here!]

I am very stressed right now because I can't seem to find any peace in my life from this disease.  I recently had a really bad break-up with a BPD/npd woman and after 3 months i'm still recovering. 

in the meanwhile, my exwife had the affliction as well and since my break-up I have taken a job that gives me more time to see my youngest daughter.   As fate would have it, being around her more has stirred up my exwife's  antics and behavior and she has been doing one-up behavior and also victim behavior with money again.  For example, my exwife will not buy my daughter a new winter coat because she says she has no money.  Meanwhile, she gets child support from me, her parents pay for her mortgage and she had a severance payment of 26k last year in May or June.   She is a horder in her house and i suspect that she uses victim mentality to do this with money as well.  Because the kids don't know it is easy to deceive them and everyone else. 

I'm mentioning this because my daughter (13) wants to try out for the basketball team at her school.  She came to me asking for help with this.  I played bball in high school and she knows i am connected to this sport.   I felt so excited that she came to me for help with this.   I started taking her to my gym a few weeks ago and teaching her some basics.  In the beginning everything was okay but then i started noticing last week that she was getting a little resistant to my suggestions.  So at first, she was just really hard on herself and i would tell her that.  I would encourage her to be easy on herself because she will get judgement from the coaches/players etc and although it's good to look at oneself and be able to take responsibility the other side of that with severe criticism could stop her progress.  So I encourage her to just have fun and focus on why she wanted to play etc.

For the most part she was okay with these tips.  I decided to join a gym that was 24 hours (an upgrade) because i was going back to my next job assignment which is very long hours and most times out of state.  In talking it out with her she felt that she could get her mom's cooperation in getting a ride to the place etc.  I was reluctant because i know her mom sabotages things in the past but i wanted to give her a chance. So i compromised and told her that i would get the membership for the first month or two but could not commit to extending it beyond that (they have month to month options).  While it was expensive i thought it was worth it because she rarely has a desire to do something like this. 

As part of the new membership we received a complimentary training session with a man who is a personal trainer that specializes in sports drill training like basketball.  We had a session on Thursday and he suggested that we engage with him for 4 sessions before her try out next week.  Knowing that she is behind the "eight ball" he thought this would still help her get ready.  His session was very helpful and what i noticed (and thought was normal) is that she listened to him and took suggestions much better then had been doing for me the last few times we were together. She had been playing a little victim role with me during some of the drills.  I think his session made her realize that she was not in cardio shape for the tryouts.  She wanted me to pay for the sessions and i told her we would need to talk with her mom.  She did tell me that her mom claimed not to have any money because she was home sick from work the previous week.  So in one week her mom is totally broke (apparently) and is not buying food for the house and kids and is telling my daughter she has no money.  It's a story she uses all the time with my kids to try and get everyone including me to pay for stuff.   

I told my daughter (to set expectations) that i would talk to her mom.  I reached out on Friday through text and requested a phone conversation.  The mom responded with a "if this is about daughers name bball tryouts and the personal training, it is a Hard No as i have been sick last week and didn't work."  I responded "ok".  I knew it was pointless to argue with her.  That night my daughter and I (friday night) were supposed to go to the gym when i was done with work to practice.  My daughter did not reach out to me like she said she would and then when i contacted her she told me "change of plans, going out with mom and her sisters name".  I believe they went out to eat and possibly more but i try not to ask for too many details.   

There is much more that happened but this is already too detailed (sorry i don't know how much background is required to give a true feel for the situation) so i will fast forward to last night.

We were practicing and everything was going  great.  i coached my daughter to do the drills the personal trainer had showed us.  I did wind sprints and jump roping with her.  At one point I asked her to do the free throw line shooting drills.  She was having problems and i reminded her of what he said about form etc.  She was resistant to my suggestions it seemed and got frustrated easily.  She made no mention of being frustrated at me.  I continued to support her be patient with her and showed her how to shoot by breaking down the mechanics of the arm and wrist movements. 
She seemed frustrated but no negative response at that point. 

Later after doing some other work up in the training area (box jumping etc) she started talking to me about her friend who blew her off recently.  this led into a whole conversation about kids and emotional distancing etc.  We had such a great conversation and i felt so warmed that she would open up to me.  I in turn opened up a little to her and told her some of my past experiences and even spoke of some of the things that happened in my last relationship because i thought it might be useful to show her that even adults go through this stuff.

We finished up and went to the car and started driving home.  The conversation kept continuing about people not showing their true self and wearing a "mask" so to speak.  That's where the blank hit the fan.  She said, well not everyone can show their true side all the time.  I have to admit I took the bait and feel horrible for it.  I was tired and didn't realize i was heading down this slippery slope.  I was "on a roll" so to speak and got caught up in the moment.  I said, "well it's important to always be yourself no matter who you're with."  I don't remember the exact words but the conversation turned to the personal trainer.  I might have said something about how I noticed that she was resistant to my suggestions but would be okay to take the personal trainers suggestions.  I know now this was a mistake but what came afterwards I didn't expect. 

She started telling me her "true feelings" about me.  She went from telling me i was "annoying" when i would tell her how to shoot better.   I asked her why she felt that way.  she told me.  I defended myself by saying that personal trainer was doing the same thing.  In a matter of minutes she told me that i am all about being "right" and just want to "shut down" when she tells me why i'm a problem.  I couldn't believe she was painting me black after i worked 10 hours, drove 35 minutes to get her without eating and also we had such a great conversation about her peers and relationships.  In a matter of seconds all of that seemed to be destroyed.  I was trying my best to not get upset and instead asked her questions like "why do you feel unheard"  "why do feel that i am shutting you down."  she told me because i always have to be right!  "no matter what i say you have to make some kind of comeback and prove me wrong. Even while I was shooting there was nothing that i could do that was right.  you kept correcting me and telling me that i was doing it wrong." 

I defended myself and told her that I did not use those words.  She said "yeah well that is how it feels when you do that."  I said, " if i was shutting down I would not be trying to talk this out with you.  Shutting down is when someone stops the conversation and doesn't allow you to speak.  I don't see myself doing that."  So then she immediately said, " i don't want to talk about this anymore, you're just getting me angry by trying to prove that i'm wrong." 

The hole was getting deeper so i yielded.  I knew that no matter what i said that she was going to paint me black.  Before we got to her mom's I apologized for my part by saying, "i'm sorry if you thought that i was being critical of you or trying to prove you wrong- that wasn't my intent.  That is my part that i'm apologizing for but i want you to know that i love you and have good intentions for you and i'm glad we got to spend this time together."  She said she loved me too (no apology) and continued to brood. 

After i dropped her off, i could not help but think that she will go straight into her mom's house and paint me black with her mom even though we had that initial great conversation.  I know her mom will re-enforce that i am such a "bad" guy if this happens.  I know i can't control this but it was disheartening and now i feel like i all the good conversation was lost on her turning her self criticism onto me and i was defensless.  In fact defending myself put me back into PTSD after i dropped her off because i can't seem to find peace with some of the people that i love.  It brought back all those old feelings of her mom doing this to me, my recent exgf doing this to me and the shock of how they can turn so quickly from loving people to someone who feels attacked and projected that onto me.

I drove away feeling "beat up" over trying to connect with my daughter.  I know some of this is teenage stuff but this has been going on since our divorce 7 years ago and she continues to struggle because her mom sabotages her positive efforts and instead of being mad at her mom she defends her mom and paints me black (the one who is putting forward so much effort to help her).

I am super sad right now and just needed to share this and I'm asking for some emotional support because i feel really down that my 13 year old doesn't seem to be able to accept my positive efforts and just painted me black.

[truthbeknown]

I am very stressed right now because I can't seem to find any peace in my life from this disease.  I recently had a really bad break-up with a BPD/npd woman and after 3 months i'm still recovering. 

in the meanwhile, my exwife had the affliction as well and since my break-up I have taken a job that gives me more time to see my youngest daughter.   As fate would have it, being around her more has stirred up my exwife's  antics and behavior and she has been doing one-up behavior and also victim behavior with money again.  For example, my exwife will not buy my daughter a new winter coat because she says she has no money.  Meanwhile, she gets child support from me, her parents pay for her mortgage and she had a severance payment of 26k last year in May or June.   She is a horder in her house and i suspect that she uses victim mentality to do this with money as well.  Because the kids don't know it is easy to deceive them and everyone else. 

I'm mentioning this because my daughter (13) wants to try out for the basketball team at her school.  She came to me asking for help with this.  I played bball in high school and she knows i am connected to this sport.   I felt so excited that she came to me for help with this.   I started taking her to my gym a few weeks ago and teaching her some basics.  In the beginning everything was okay but then i started noticing last week that she was getting a little resistant to my suggestions.  So at first, she was just really hard on herself and i would tell her that.  I would encourage her to be easy on herself because she will get judgement from the coaches/players etc and although it's good to look at oneself and be able to take responsibility the other side of that with severe criticism could stop her progress.  So I encourage her to just have fun and focus on why she wanted to play etc.

For the most part she was okay with these tips.  I decided to join a gym that was 24 hours (an upgrade) because i was going back to my next job assignment which is very long hours and most times out of state.  In talking it out with her she felt that she could get her mom's cooperation in getting a ride to the place etc.  I was reluctant because i know her mom sabotages things in the past but i wanted to give her a chance. So i compromised and told her that i would get the membership for the first month or two but could not commit to extending it beyond that (they have month to month options).  While it was expensive i thought it was worth it because she rarely has a desire to do something like this. 

As part of the new membership we received a complimentary training session with a man who is a personal trainer that specializes in sports drill training like basketball.  We had a session on Thursday and he suggested that we engage with him for 4 sessions before her try out next week.  Knowing that she is behind the "eight ball" he thought this would still help her get ready.  His session was very helpful and what i noticed (and thought was normal) is that she listened to him and took suggestions much better then had been doing for me the last few times we were together. She had been playing a little victim role with me during some of the drills.  I think his session made her realize that she was not in cardio shape for the tryouts.  She wanted me to pay for the sessions and i told her we would need to talk with her mom.  She did tell me that her mom claimed not to have any money because she was home sick from work the previous week.  So in one week her mom is totally broke (apparently) and is not buying food for the house and kids and is telling my daughter she has no money.  It's a story she uses all the time with my kids to try and get everyone including me to pay for stuff.   

I told my daughter (to set expectations) that i would talk to her mom.  I reached out on Friday through text and requested a phone conversation.  The mom responded with a "if this is about daughers name bball tryouts and the personal training, it is a Hard No as i have been sick last week and didn't work."  I responded "ok".  I knew it was pointless to argue with her.  That night my daughter and I (friday night) were supposed to go to the gym when i was done with work to practice.  My daughter did not reach out to me like she said she would and then when i contacted her she told me "change of plans, going out with mom and her sisters name".  I believe they went out to eat and possibly more but i try not to ask for too many details.   

There is much more that happened but this is already too detailed (sorry i don't know how much background is required to give a true feel for the situation) so i will fast forward to last night.

We were practicing and everything was going  great.  i coached my daughter to do the drills the personal trainer had showed us.  I did wind sprints and jump roping with her.  At one point I asked her to do the free throw line shooting drills.  She was having problems and i reminded her of what he said about form etc.  She was resistant to my suggestions it seemed and got frustrated easily.  She made no mention of being frustrated at me.  I continued to support her be patient with her and showed her how to shoot by breaking down the mechanics of the arm and wrist movements. 
She seemed frustrated but no negative response at that point. 

Later after doing some other work up in the training area (box jumping etc) she started talking to me about her friend who blew her off recently.  this led into a whole conversation about kids and emotional distancing etc.  We had such a great conversation and i felt so warmed that she would open up to me.  I in turn opened up a little to her and told her some of my past experiences and even spoke of some of the things that happened in my last relationship because i thought it might be useful to show her that even adults go through this stuff.

We finished up and went to the car and started driving home.  The conversation kept continuing about people not showing their true self and wearing a "mask" so to speak.  That's where the blank hit the fan.  She said, well not everyone can show their true side all the time.  I have to admit I took the bait and feel horrible for it.  I was tired and didn't realize i was heading down this slippery slope.  I was "on a roll" so to speak and got caught up in the moment.  I said, "well it's important to always be yourself no matter who you're with."  I don't remember the exact words but the conversation turned to the personal trainer.  I might have said something about how I noticed that she was resistant to my suggestions but would be okay to take the personal trainers suggestions.  I know now this was a mistake but what came afterwards I didn't expect. 

She started telling me her "true feelings" about me.  She went from telling me i was "annoying" when i would tell her how to shoot better.   I asked her why she felt that way.  she told me.  I defended myself by saying that personal trainer was doing the same thing.  In a matter of minutes she told me that i am all about being "right" and just want to "shut down" when she tells me why i'm a problem.  I couldn't believe she was painting me black after i worked 10 hours, drove 35 minutes to get her without eating and also we had such a great conversation about her peers and relationships.  In a matter of seconds all of that seemed to be destroyed.  I was trying my best to not get upset and instead asked her questions like "why do you feel unheard"  "why do feel that i am shutting you down."  she told me because i always have to be right!  "no matter what i say you have to make some kind of comeback and prove me wrong. Even while I was shooting there was nothing that i could do that was right.  you kept correcting me and telling me that i was doing it wrong." 

I defended myself and told her that I did not use those words.  She said "yeah well that is how it feels when you do that."  I said, " if i was shutting down I would not be trying to talk this out with you.  Shutting down is when someone stops the conversation and doesn't allow you to speak.  I don't see myself doing that."  So then she immediately said, " i don't want to talk about this anymore, you're just getting me angry by trying to prove that i'm wrong." 

The hole was getting deeper so i yielded.  I knew that no matter what i said that she was going to paint me black.  Before we got to her mom's I apologized for my part by saying, "i'm sorry if you thought that i was being critical of you or trying to prove you wrong- that wasn't my intent.  That is my part that i'm apologizing for but i want you to know that i love you and have good intentions for you and i'm glad we got to spend this time together."  She said she loved me too (no apology) and continued to brood. 

After i dropped her off, i could not help but think that she will go straight into her mom's house and paint me black with her mom even though we had that initial great conversation.  I know her mom will re-enforce that i am such a "bad" guy if this happens.  I know i can't control this but it was disheartening and now i feel like i all the good conversation was lost on her turning her self criticism onto me and i was defensless.  In fact defending myself put me back into PTSD after i dropped her off because i can't seem to find peace with some of the people that i love.  It brought back all those old feelings of her mom doing this to me, my recent exgf doing this to me and the shock of how they can turn so quickly from loving people to someone who feels attacked and projected that onto me.

I drove away feeling "beat up" over trying to connect with my daughter.  I know some of this is teenage stuff but this has been going on since our divorce 7 years ago and she continues to struggle because her mom sabotages her positive efforts and instead of being mad at her mom she defends her mom and paints me black (the one who is putting forward so much effort to help her).

I am super sad right now and just needed to share this and I'm asking for some emotional support because i feel really down that my 13 year old doesn't seem to be able to accept my positive efforts and just painted me black.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

I feel so sad that you are distressed by this experience with you DD. It took real courage for her to open up and be honest with you about her struggle in having you coach her. You did your best in responding to her and her reaction is not that unpredictable. Age 13 is a difficult period in a girl's life.

Your DD is hearing everything you say, and there will be a time when she is ready and able to let you know she gets your love in all this. Each moment you spend with her has value whether it feels like a positive or negative experience. Keep up this time with your DD.

You might try a different approach with coaching her. Can you ask her if she wants guidance in whatever drill you are doing right now? Work out a strategy for her to let you know directly when it feels like personal criticism to her when you offer suggestions. Work out a strategy with yourself to let go of feelings of being attacked or disappointed when she has a negative reaction to your coaching. Detach a bit while you are in the trainer mode. You can do this.

carol

[truthbeknown]

qcarolr,

Thanks for your kind words.  As far as the suggestion, i did ask her, "how would you have wanted me to approach you."  and she said, "just let me do it on my own rather then critiquing me."  I still don't think she understands the difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism. 

And the hardest part that i have is her lack of appreciation.  Last fall I spoke with a friend of a friend whose daughter has BPD.  They are great parents and the wife is a teacher who works with bd kids.  They described how their daughter just will snap and go off on them, paint them black and then sometimes take off from home.  My daughter in the past has threatened to jump out of the car while it's moving when she got mad at me.  She has gotten much better (i thought) and yet when the episode happened all those past memories were triggered and the possibility of what she could do when she "switches" into one of her states.

yes there is also the component of the teenage girl aspect which i totally get.  I'm just worried that she will not grow out of this because her mom has these traits and also manipulates her against me when she is in one of these states after being with me.   She knows that she can not do this to her mom because her mom doesn't care what she does.   I have been told by counselors that the person who cares the least about the relationship controls the relationship.  I think that my ex wife doesn't care so that makes it harder for my daughter to get the attention from her mom for her behavior.  For me I care too much probably because i'm the empathetic parent.  But the double bind is that i don't want to be like the mother and stonewall her etc. 

Yesterday i did not hear from her and i thought i would see is she would reach out to me.  Since she didn't I'm not sure if my reaching out to her sends a message that she's in control of our interaction and that it's okay for her to behave like she did.  I get having protests about parents but where do we draw the line when they rage and split us and then don't seem to want to have anything to do with us?  Do I reach back out to her or not? this is where i am struggling today.

[qcarolr]

truthbeknown, it is harder for you since you have the experiences with you ex-wife and now it seems a shadow of that is happening with your DD. It is really important that you can limit this overlap in these relationships. Your DD really needs to know you love her regardless of what happens. This is even more important with the ambivalence her mom seems to have with her.

Do you have a counselor to talk to about all this? It is a lot to sort out on your own. There are so many fears we parents have around our troubled kids. Sometimes the intense feelings get in the way of thinking clearly.

If it were my situation, I would reach out to her in some way.  Good luck.

carol

[truthbeknown]

carol,

I have been able to stay connected to her.  She and I spoke a couple of days later and she wanted to come back out with me to practice some more.  This time i was very careful not to "overcoach" as she said but I still don't feel like that is what i was doing- i think when her negative behavior comes out she is apt to project that criticism.  At any rate, i tried the new approach.  She responded to it but i also was thinking in the back of my mind that i had to change who i was to make things easier for her.  My fear is that this becomes the "walking on eggshells" and that if it were just one off type of situation then that would be one thing but i've seen where this can go.  Yes it's hard not to take our past experiences and "see it coming again" but i try really hard to stay in the moment.  I mostly express my thoughts about it on this board so that i can get them out of my head and also get feedback to contemplate.   

Even if she doesn't have empathy, develop empathy etc. i will always love her and try my best to connect but i'm also triggered because my 16yo is now not talking to me.  He is being "alienated" from me by his mom.  I can read the signs and it's not just the age appropriate stuff of not wanting to hang out with parents.  It's the lack of eye contact and the saying of things like, "I only communicate with people that i see on a daily basis" which of course sets me up for failure.

I sent him a  heartfelt message and in return he sent me back a very paranoid message that reflects what a parent who alienates a child will do.  I feel like I am losing him now and a few years ago he seemed very empathetic and understanding of others. 

So these experiences trigger a PTSD of sorts for things that haven't even happened because I worry that my daughter will be acting like him in a few years as well. 

But for right now things are okay with my daughter again and she did make the basketball team!  I am happy that i might have had some influence even if she can't or doesn't know how to appreciate it. 

[qcarolr]

I am so glad your D made the team    And sad about the distance growing with your son. I hope there are ways to 'tap' him once in a while so he knows you are still there.

carol

[truthbeknown]

update:

now that my daughter has made the team she has been withdrawing from me a bit.  I tend to have to chase my kids to get them to connect with me.  I'm growing tired of this right now.  In addition to my bad breakup with my npd/BPD ex last 3 months and the rejection that came along with that, i just can't handle too much more rejection from people that i love.  My daughter said she would call to talk about todays activities and she did not.  I did not pursue her this time. 

looking for feedback about how others deal with chasing kids from parents who alienate and teach them how to be narcissistic.