Will she will ever change

[misterblister]

We cannot make a relationship healthy or whole simply by changing ourselves and our responses. People like me assume others can change under our sincere positive influence, which underestimates the profound nature of BPD. If your dance partner cannot dance or learn to dance, it doesn't matter how well you dance; if you choose to remain on the dance floor with them, it will be awkward at best, comically painful at worst.

We can learn a form of emotional Aikido which reduce conflict and balance our responses, but we are practicing that art inside a fundamentally broken relationship due to the BPD partner. In that sense our role is more as parent or therapist, and that will remain the case until we die, excluding us from ever experiencing a truly loving and reciprocal relationship with another whole person.

That is our choice to make, of course, but it should be made clear by those who have tried that in most cases the BPD partner is not going to change no matter how much you master being the best possible You.

Split from DO NOT STAY as she will never change

[Skip]

It's a valid question and a valid perspective. I think this is an important conversation to have.

I might look at it a bit (just a bit) differently. Many of us will spend part of our lives living and loving someone with a handicap of some type. It could be as a parent aging into Alzheimers, or a child with Asperger, or cancer, or a partner who losses a leg in a car accident.  The person with a handicap is not going to change no matter how much we master being the best possible "us". You are exactly and unequivocally correct.

There is a lot we can do in all the cases above.

There is a lot we cannot do, too.

Living with anyone is complicated and one reason 50% of all marriages fail. I read recently that close to 50% of people diagnosed with terminal cancer lose their romantic partner. It's very sobering world.

I thought it would be good to share this brief clip from an article on our website here:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/treatment-borderline-personality-disorder


Date: 2-2012Minutes: 9:58
Back From the Edge - Mini clip

[Tattered Heart]

We cannot make a relationship healthy or whole simply by changing ourselves and our responses. People like me assume others can change under our sincere positive influence, which underestimates the profound nature of BPD. If your dance partner cannot dance or learn to dance, it doesn't matter how well you dance; if you choose to remain on the dance floor with them, it will be awkward at best, comically painful at worst.

You cannot truly dance well together if both people are trying to lead, if neither is leading, or if the one who can't dance leads. When the healthier partner takes the lead, the other partner follows suit. Be the lead.

Some pwBPD may never change, but until you have fully and completely committed to the process of changing your own behavior first, it's impossible to say whether the changes will change the direction of your relationship. Using the skills haphazardly won't get you any momentum and will leave you feeling hopeless and believing they won't work. Making a concerted effort to practice the skills at all times (not just when your partner is escalated) can lead to lasting changes within yourself that help you feel empowered and hopeful.

My H and I are experiencing the healthiest our relationship has ever been in 13 years of marriage. We have maybe 1 argument a month, which is probably better when even compared to a "normal" couple. A year ago, my H was raging 3 times per week, moving closer and closer to DV (he raised his fist to me), and I was a broken, miserable, hopeless mess. I committed to use the skills, practice them, stay on these boards, and live my life to the fullest with or without him, and he came along next to me. He now quickly apologizes, tries to control his temper, sees when he is being overly emotional or irrational, and even shows empathy towards me. So yes, they can change. It just takes a lot of work. But even when he doesn't respond like I would like, the important part is that I am healthy.

[once removed]

at the end of the day, people here are trying to make the best of a tough situation (to lesser or greater degrees).

what they can do, what is within their power, is to accept the reality of their situation, examine the ways in which they are contributing, and focus on what they have control over.

realistic expectations are very important, but i guess it also depends what we are talking about changing. i brought a lot of dysfunction into my relationship on my own. the daily fighting really wore us down. i was 50% of that... .hell sometimes i was 100% of that. i wasnt a great dancer.

[misterblister]

I cannot blame BPD for everything. Certainly had I married a more emotionally healthy partner, we would have had to work hard to resolve conflicts. Curve balls would be inevitable. Having challenging children, for example, can tweak any marriage. I try to remember that, and remember the good I have enjoyed.

For me the deal breaker is I cannot have a loving marital relationship with someone who is unaware--in particular willfully unaware--of a serious personality disorder that sabotages the relationship in profound and hurtful ways. I can love them, yes, in the same way I love a child who cannot help itself, but not as an intimate soul mate. Such love requires authentic individual maturity and deep abiding trust.

I do applaud those who steel themselves and master the techniques. Certainly I have no excuse not to apply myself to using them in the present. Had I known 10+ years ago about this and sought proper help, my life could be much different and happier.

[Skip]

I do applaud those who steel themselves and master the techniques. Certainly I have no excuse not to apply myself to using them in the present. Had I known 10+ years ago about this and sought proper help, my life could be much different and happier.

Learn them! I've been in healthy relationships for 75% of my life (including now). I wish I knew the tools from the get go - they really make for a better relationship. They will serve you now and in the future.

For me the deal breaker is I cannot have a loving marital relationship with someone who is unaware--in particular willfully unaware--of a serious personality disorder that sabotages the relationship in profound and hurtful ways.

Certainly you need to look at everything in the balance, your kids, your relationship with your wife, your hopes for the future - and make that call.

It's not easy. I left my wife after 21 years. My partner was married 35. We both have significant and real regrets about the life we walked away from. We are happy with our lives now. Nothing is cut and dry - you (all of us) do our best.

[Cat Familiar]

I disagree with the idea that "in most cases the BPD partner is not going to change no matter how much you master being the best possible You."

It depends upon how much one tries to be "the best possible You." That said, I do think some relationships cannot be salvaged if there's violence, infidelity, financial irresponsibility--my first marriage had all three.

My current husband will never be a "Non" but he's definitely upping his game, trying to be a better partner to me. And I, though I didn't "act out" much in our relationship, I had a ton of resentment I had carried over from my BPD mother and first husband. It was simmering just near the surface and my husband could easily detect that and presumed I was mad at him. Sometimes I was, but more often it was a persistent irritation with BPD in general--it was "This again!"

Once I got that out of my system, I trigger him much less. Thanks again BPD family for hearing my endless litany of complaints!  

So ultimately, we are having a much healthier relationship. I don't know if it will ever fully meet the definition of "healthy" but I realize that I bring a lot of family-of-origin baggage too. But now it's a heck-of-a-lot better and I'm happy.

[misterblister]

@Skip - I honestly struggle to learn anything new at my age. What I really need is a cheat sheet of principles I can pull out and memorize several times daily, because my brain short-circuits once she turns on the heat.

You are right that nothing is cut and dried. No matter how I frame the idea of leaving and freeing myself from this cycle, my children's lives will get worse in significant ways that I will be unable to reverse. Something fragile and precious they have known their entire lives will be broken forever. They might see a happier and more whole father than they ever would have if I had stayed, but it will come at a price whose ramifications I cannot calculate.

@Cat Familiar - I am glad it's working out for you. It sounds like you're working hard toward that goal. There is so much variety in BPD, and I know I can do things that can make circumstances relatively happier. But I feel I am living a lie. I am seeing things about my partner I cannot unsee. One of my children (barely a teen) has described her mother as having immature and childish emotions. I am looking back on behaviors that I ignored to keep the peace, which are now repulsive to me.

That being said, I owe it to my spouse, my children, and myself to apply the tools consistently and watch what happens. My problem is I think the anger and resentment is clouding any feelings of affection that I have left, so I really have no interest in being around her at this point.

[Skip]

I honestly struggle to learn anything new at my age. What I really need is a cheat sheet of principles I can pull out and memorize several times daily, because my brain short-circuits once she turns on the heat.

What I was saying is to learn them for all relationships that you are in or will be in. They are amazing.

They will also help you with you wife - she is not going to go away, even if you divorce her. You will still be bound by the children.

I can pull out and memorize several times daily, because my brain short-circuits once she turns on the heat.

These are not card thricks    They are skills for relating to people - all people. Its a change in style.

No matter how I frame the idea of leaving and freeing myself from this cycle, my children's lives will get worse in significant ways that I will be unable to reverse. Something fragile and precious they have known their entire lives will be broken forever. They might see a happier and more whole father than they ever would have if I had stayed, but it will come at a price whose ramifications I cannot calculate.

I know      This is the hard part for sure.

[misterblister]

I wanted to update this because I have changed my tune for now.

The fact is, I have failed to apply proper communication techniques when dealing with my uBPDw before and after I became aware of BPD a few years ago. The reasons for this are many, but none are excuses.

If I left her now there are some ways my life would improve dramatically, but there are also risks to my self-respect and particularly the well being of my children. To take that risk now, before I have really learned and consistently applied the techniques, would be foolhardy and even cowardly.

I have already seen results, some positive, and while I still feel I am mostly stumbling in the dark, my emotional core tells me I am on the right track.

That being said, I am doing this solely because I feel it is the only healthy way to stay in this relationship and to model maturity and fairness and firmness to my children. I am not doing it because I believe it will change my spouse. In fact, it opens my eyes more to behavior in her that makes her seem even more childish.

In no particular order these are things I have observed already by applying the communication techniques to my best ability thus far:

1. Keeping my cool and not taking the bait - This is my biggest challenge. It reaps the biggest rewards, too. By dodging the sophisticated daggers entirely, I am able to make my point (often in front of my children) and disarm the attack entirely. In some cases where my spouse is particularly angry, I put up a shield and excuse myself from the conversation due to the hostility.

2. Be sincere but firm - avoiding all sarcasm (another personal challenge for me) and firmly asserting myself  seems to be creating a stable foundation for me, my children, and possibly even my spouse. She is not used to this but it seems to have a strange effect of taming the tiger, so to speak, but also making her sore (as if I'm being a bully), yet also she seems to be trying harder to not lose her cool.

3. Do not compromise on non-negotiables - this is firmness on steroids. Basically these are things I refuse to budge on, but not in a harsh way. This is basically me manning up on things that are ultimately my realm of responsibility, things I could not respect myself if I did not devote my cause to them. So requiring a budget to prevent financial ruin, or insisting on certain things to protect the children. This is a delicate area for me because it's easy to let pride become tyranny, and once she starts pulling Jedi mind tricks, it can be hard to trust myself. But I spend time thinking through it, asking myself whether it's fair and what compromises I am willing to make, and this gives me the strength to continue asserting myself. It requires ego strength to be the bad guy and the misunderstood guy, so I really have to be sure my stance is justified. The surprise here is my spouse is fighting back far less than I thought, and appears to be conjuring a narrative that I am being a bully or the mean person, which she sometimes expresses with falsities which again require me to keep my cool and be sincere.

4. Be consistent - I find that this approach requires a lot of rinse and repeat. It's like my defenses are being probed or I'm being tempted into blowing up. So I am often having to reassert or restate things calmly but clearly without taking the bait, and that can feel lonely at times but I can see it is working.

5. Do not be afraid - Recent life events have made me realize life is too short for lies and pointless suffering. I cannot control her or her reactions. I cannot make her stay or leave. I will live one day at a time doing my best, not living in fear, trying to live as fully as I can with the hand I have been dealt and the hand that I have played that got me here. Without this attitude springing deep from within me, I could not manage any of the above.

I still need to work on being sympathetic and communicating when something hurts me. I think I resist this because she can just be so vicious and demeaning that it feels too risky to do that.

If my successes continue and this does not trigger any deal breaking behavior from my spouse, I foresee myself being truly happier and healthier. Plus, I will model a healthy and mature response to my children that I could not otherwise model nearly as well in shared custody. But for now, one day at a time.

[ozmatoz]

3. Do not compromise on non-negotiables - this is firmness on steroids. Basically these are things I refuse to budge on, but not in a harsh way. This is basically me manning up on things that are ultimately my realm of responsibility, things I could not respect myself if I did not devote my cause to them. So requiring a budget to prevent financial ruin, or insisting on certain things to protect the children. This is a delicate area for me because it's easy to let pride become tyranny, and once she starts pulling Jedi mind tricks, it can be hard to trust myself. But I spend time thinking through it, asking myself whether it's fair and what compromises I am willing to make, and this gives me the strength to continue asserting myself. It requires ego strength to be the bad guy and the misunderstood guy, so I really have to be sure my stance is justified. The surprise here is my spouse is fighting back far less than I thought, and appears to be conjuring a narrative that I am being a bully or the mean person, which she sometimes expresses with falsities which again require me to keep my cool and be sincere.

Good work, and good for you to realize where you are at and to figure out a course of action.  I think there are many on here (myself included) that wonder if I had known the tools years ago would my marriage have ever got to the breaking point.  Truth is, we'll never know.

Number 3 on your list is really hard to do.  Especially in the face of a skilled "enemy".  I find that I stand firm, but the more crap is pushed back at me I start to question whether my position was really fair to begin with.  The FOG starts rolling back in.  When I do stand firm I am squarely put in the "bad guy" position but unfortunately for me my uBPDw will find ways to let the kids know her position.  Of course I know this is just more "bait" for drama... .

I wish you luck on your journey and hope that you can lead your W towards a calmer waters.  I find the more I apply the tools the more my wife claims the relationship no longer works for her.  So I prepare behind the scenes just in case... .

Don't forget to find some time in there for you.
-Oz

[joshbjoshb]

Amazing job! MisterBlister. I feel the same is very true to me.

Regarding sharing your emotions when you are hurt etc., I kind of gave up on this completely. I now view my marriage as essentially being married to someone with major disability. You won't expect someone on a wheelchair to go out to the supermarket to buy you something, and I don't expect someone who is emotionally ill to be supportive to me.

[Red5]

1. Keeping my cool and not taking the bait - This is my biggest challenge. It reaps the biggest rewards, too. By dodging the sophisticated daggers entirely, I am able to make my point (often in front of my children) and disarm the attack entirely. In some cases where my spouse is particularly angry, I put up a shield and excuse myself from the conversation due to the hostility.

2. Be sincere but firm - avoiding all sarcasm (another personal challenge for me) and firmly asserting myself  seems to be creating a stable foundation for me, my children, and possibly even my spouse. She is not used to this but it seems to have a strange effect of taming the tiger, so to speak, but also making her sore (as if I'm being a bully), yet also she seems to be trying harder to not lose her cool.

MB, #1 & #2 resonate with me, my two biggest achilles' heels... .great post !

Red5

[misterblister]

Thank you all for being on this forum and sharing your struggles. There are many priceless bits of wisdom on here. I try to count my blessings knowing others have it much worse than me.

@ozmatoz - I think my #5 (do not be afraid) finally made #3 possible for me. I realized and accepted that even if I do my best sincerely at this, it could all explode in my face. But I am OK with that. I know I and my children will survive. Knowing I did my best to do the right thing will hopefully become my titanium backbone.

@joshbjoshb I am resigned to the fact that my wife will likely never change. There are still good things about her that I can appreciate and enjoy, but as you said, she has a major disability. But I chose to marry her and stay with her, and have children with her, so I owe to myself and all of them to reach a point where I am truly doing the best I can within my boundaries.

[Cat Familiar]

Good work, misterblister! It takes time to change old patterns of responses. But having a focus on moving toward a less-conflict future helps in the interim.

The biggest step for me was accepting being called selfish or having him think I was a jerk. When one has had a longstanding habit of bending over backwards to appease our loved one, it sometimes feels selfish to actually honor one's own wants and needs.

Now, I can humorously agree with him. Yep, I'm selfish for wanting what I want. (In my mind I'm saying, "Have a problem with that?"

I laugh to myself because he's so driven to satisfy his ephemeral wants IMMEDIATELY.

[Red5]

Cat writes; Now, I can humorously agree with him. Yep, I'm selfish for wanting what I want. (In my mind I'm saying, "Have a problem with that?"

I laugh to myself because he's so driven to satisfy his ephemeral wants IMMEDIATELY.

I have lately begun to do something similar in my r/s with my own u/BPDw... .as in I will say to her, "its all about me"... .as this is what she says to me all the time when she is "cross" with me... .she will say, to me, "its all about you"... .fill in the blank... .so I have decided to use this "material",

She will ask me, "where would you like to go eat"... .a timeless and perplexing question that all wives asks their husbands from time to time (sarcasm ).

Now I know pretty much exactly where she would rather go, and not go, compared to where I like to go, and not like to go... .but to get her to actually tell me?... .good luck with that,

So I will drop a decoy to her question, "well Babe, where would YOU like to go an eat?"... .and she responds, "Hon, anywhere is ok with me, I really don't care"... .this is indeed a trap, a catch22, a trick question for which there is NO correct answer, in fact she already knows where she wants to go, and she is "messing with me"... .

So I will grab the bull by the horns, and say... ."well Dear, it's ALL about me, so... .we are going to the chili joint across town, RU ok with that ?"... .

Which she will respond, "Now you know that I cannot eat that stuff, why would you choose that place" (frown face)... .and I rewind her earlier response that was ""Babe, anywhere is ok with me I don't care"... . !

Now what to do... .she won't tell me where she wants to go, but I think I may know; and I am pretty sure where she may not want to go, .in fact she probably already knows that I know either way, but I do not have the security clearance to actually know that exactly (ha ha ha)... .even when I put myself in the cross hairs, "its all about me jokingly"... .to no avail... .

Ah'... .the command decision !

Such is life eh'... .conflict resolution, situation analysis, blah blah blah... . 

This is yet another BPD'ism and I am sure we all can concur with it (?).

And we STILL don't know where to go for lunch, as any answer the non gives the pw/BPD will be the wrong answer, and the beatings will only continue... .eye roll ~>

Red5