Need advice not JADEing when details change.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

What are some of your experiences and techniques to avoid a pitfall when the discussion begins with erroneous information and devolves into an argument due to trying to ensure the facts are correct?

My example:  We recently were given an old small economy wagon which seats five people. It’s fun to drive, fuel bills are a fraction of using our large SUV. and it fits our family of five.

 Last night, my wife angrily asked me why I was driving a total of six people in the small wagon, “loading more people than seatbelts!”  She then listed all the names. When I responded, “John wasn’t with us, it was just five of us, and we all had seatbelts.”  She exploded with, “ Why are you knit-picking what I say?  Your son wants to know why you drive the wagon and cram people in when we have a larger vehicle.  Go explain it to your son and daughter!”  I said, “OK, I will. I drive it because I like too.”

I then went to each of my kids and told them I drive the wagon because I like too. Each looked at me with a puzzled look and said, “I know. I like it too.”

After doing this, my wife let me know how I’ve been mad at her for the past three days and have been going out of my way to pick a fight with her daily. I was unaware I was mad. My memory of the past few days were of great times, no arguments, and even better then most days. I replied I was sorry if it seemed that way and would work toward being nicer.

I feel like there is no solution. If I didn’t JADE, how could I respond to the original question of driving six people? 

I knew some type of blow up was coming soon because she received some bad news on a work related issue that morning - a proposal she pitched went to another firm.

Thanks.

[HouseDad3]

What are some of your experiences and techniques to avoid a pitfall when the discussion begins with erroneous information and devolves into an argument due to trying to ensure the facts are correct?

My example:  We recently were given an old small economy wagon which seats five people. It’s fun to drive, fuel bills are a fraction of using our large SUV. and it fits our family of five.

 Last night, my wife angrily asked me why I was driving a total of six people in the small wagon, “loading more people than seatbelts!”  She then listed all the names. When I responded, “John wasn’t with us, it was just five of us, and we all had seatbelts.”  She exploded with, “ Why are you knit-picking what I say?  Your son wants to know why you drive the wagon and cram people in when we have a larger vehicle.  Go explain it to your son and daughter!”  I said, “OK, I will. I drive it because I like too.”

I then went to each of my kids and told them I drive the wagon because I like too. Each looked at me with a puzzled look and said, “I know. I like it too.”

After doing this, my wife let me know how I’ve been mad at her for the past three days and have been going out of my way to pick a fight with her daily. I was unaware I was mad. My memory of the past few days were of great times, no arguments, and even better then most days. I replied I was sorry if it seemed that way and would work toward being nicer.

I feel like there is no solution. If I didn’t JADE, how could I respond to the original question of driving six people? 

I knew some type of blow up was coming soon because she received some bad news on a work related issue that morning - a proposal she pitched went to another firm.

Thanks.

[schwing]

Hi HouseDad3,

What are some of your experiences and techniques to avoid a pitfall when the discussion begins with erroneous information and devolves into an argument due to trying to ensure the facts are correct?

For me, a key technique for avoiding such arguments is to first recognize when my BPD loved one is NOT trying to engage in a discussion, but rather they are venting uncomfortable/disordered feelings that they cannot cope with themselves.  When my BPD mother comes up to me looking to engage in a discussion on a topic that I know she knows is an emotional trigger for me, I try to immediately recognize that she is picking a fight, or trying to elicit an emotional reaction out of me in order to affect one of her one maladaptive coping mechanisms.  I'll try to relate this to your examples.

Last night, my wife angrily asked me why I was driving a total of six people in the small wagon, “loading more people than seatbelts!”  She then listed all the names. When I responded, “John wasn’t with us, it was just five of us, and we all had seatbelts.”  

Right off the bat I would say that she is upset about something that she cannot be direct about.  And I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she is actually upset about your driving what she might consider the lesser car (as opposed to some completely unrelated topic... which will happen from time to time).  But instead of saying that she'd prefer the larger car, she accuses you of driving the "unsafe" car in an "unsafe" manner (i.e. with more passengers than seat belts).  The key observation is that she is unhappy with your choice and she is likely mad at you and she is unwilling to be direct about her feelings.

Also, the manner in which she initiated this conversation was designed to put you in a defensive position.  She accuses you of doing something unsafe.  And what she accuses you of doing is not true.  This is your first clue that this is a conversation to which you might try not to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain).

She exploded with, “ Why are you knit-picking what I say?  Your son wants to know why you drive the wagon and cram people in when we have a larger vehicle.  Go explain it to your son and daughter!”  I said, “OK, I will. I drive it because I like too.”

I then went to each of my kids and told them I drive the wagon because I like too. Each looked at me with a puzzled look and said, “I know. I like it too.”

When you DEFEND yourself, she just changes the offense she is accusing of; now you are "knit-picking".  And here is another observation of pwBPD: they often "hide" behind the supposed feelings of other people.  So again, instead of being direct about her own feelings, she tells you that your children are not happy with your driving the smaller vehicle.  And she asks you to JUSTIFY and EXPLAIN this choice to your children.  Clue number 2.

After doing this, my wife let me know how I’ve been mad at her for the past three days and have been going out of my way to pick a fight with her daily. I was unaware I was mad. My memory of the past few days were of great times, no arguments, and even better then most days. I replied I was sorry if it seemed that way and would work toward being nicer.

This is clue number 3.  She now accuses you of exhibiting the emotion that she is not willing to admit/accept, not even to herself.  She is mad at you, maybe for not driving the car she prefers.  But she is unwilling to accept that she is mad at you -- why?  I don't really know. Maybe she is afraid that if she expressed her honest feelings, you might leave her.  Maybe she thinks that being mad at your spouse for such a trivial manner isn't justifiable... .so she is provoking you to act out the feeling that she cannot accept in herself (ie. being mad).  And she provokes you by accusing you of three things that are not true (1. driving unsafely 2. upsetting the kids with your choice and 3. being mad at her). MAYBE she is mad at you about something completely different, something having more to do with her disorder, which she cannot accept.  Whatever the reason, she cannot justify it, argue for it, defend it or explain it.  She only has this dysfunctional tools for dealing with it.  She has this problem and she is trying to dump it on you.

I feel like there is no solution. If I didn’t JADE, how could I respond to the original question of driving six people?  

I think in time you can develop an acceptable solution to these kinds of situation.  But first you need to recognize consistently when these situations are happening.  And practice applying an alternative response.

One technique I use with my BPD mother is when she starts a conversation of the like, and if I can identify the potential source of her real motivation, I just talk about the other subject and completely ignore her subject.

So if she is accusing you of driving in this unsafe manner.  I might respond with: "Hey if you don't like the smaller car, then I'll drive the SUV."

I knew some type of blow up was coming soon because she received some bad news on a work related issue that morning - a proposal she pitched went to another firm.

Or, "Hey I'm sorry you didn't get the project that you pitched for."  I'm certain you did a good job at it and they just had some reasons to go with the other firm that was completely out of your hands.

Or just walk away.

Why do pwBPD do this?  I think part of it is if they can get us to act the part of their delusion.  For example, if they imagine that we are the "angry" one when it is their own anger that they cannot handle, and they *make us angry* then in their disordered way of thinking, we are the angry one and not them.   If we (inadvertently) act out our part, they get their pay off.  And sometimes they give us a reward afterwards, by apologizing for something ambigious or by treating us nicely there after.  And this *conditions* us to reinforce this behavior.

If she puts you in a position where feel like you need to justify or defend yourself.  Consider that she is purposefully provoking you as a means to dealing with her own disordered emotions.  You cannot rationalize yourself out of a situation that is at its core irrational.  And you'll know you are on the right track if she keeps trying to escalate the game.  The only way to win this game is not to play.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[HouseDad3]

schwing,

I can’t thank you enough for your post!  I sincerely appreciate your time and take on my situation.

As I think back to other arguments we’ve had in the past there is a trend - if I choose to use “in her mind” the less safe vehicle then she episodes. Once she set up a weekend getaway for me, all her planning and very considerate, but I decided to drive her fuel efficient sedan instead of the big SUV for the 1000mi round trip which lead to an argument. I know she fears losing me in an accident. She knows how to make stinging accusations, like being a reckless driver, despite me teaching professionally at an advance driving school for 15 years. 

You are right with the clues you identified. It’s just hard to take that step back and analyze it before JADEing in the moment.

Some basic everyday conversations are difficult with her. Tonight I asked, “Do you have a preference for dinner?”  She replied, “It doesn’t matter what I want. If I pick something, or even if I and three others agree with me, the forth will complain.”  I said, “Ok.”  And I walked away. I made dinner and she didn’t join us. This is a common occurrence - the kids and I will eat together and she’ll not join us. She stopped cooking for the family about 10 years ago when one our kids, age 3 at the time, said,”This is gross” about the food.

Lately, what has been getting under my skin the most is the changing of details. We can have a discussion and seem to be in agreement (we agree ABC). Then days, weeks, whenever later, when the topic comes back up she’ll say, “You said XYZ when we talked about this! Now you are telling me ABC?  I can’t trust you!  I need someone I can trust and it’s not you!”

This is where I get really depressed thinking “How do I move forward in a positive manner when the details change?”

Thank you again for your time!

Thank you to those of you reading as well.

HD3

[SlyQQ]

She needed to blow off steam, don't take it personally,

you probably helped, though you might have been a bit to reasonable,

( instead of saying there weren't 6 people in the car say all right i won't go anywhere in the car
with 6 people )

the substance of the argument as you pointed out was probably irrelevant.

one way or another ( the work thing ) was going to come back and bite you.

[schwing]

Lately, what has been getting under my skin the most is the changing of details. We can have a discussion and seem to be in agreement (we agree ABC). Then days, weeks, whenever later, when the topic comes back up she’ll say, “You said XYZ when we talked about this! Now you are telling me ABC?  I can’t trust you!  I need someone I can trust and it’s not you!”

The key admission here is "I can't trust you."  And that is a true emotion she is feeling.  However, the source of this feeling is her disorder, which she cannot accept.  And the feelings are so overwhelming to her, that it distorts her thinking, her memory.  So even though you agreed ABC, her disordered emotion has caused her to believe you said XYZ.  Because this would justify WHY she feels what she feels.

This is what people mean when they say that for people with BPD, feelings equal facts.  This is to say that feelings distort what they believe as facts.  Even you had physical evidence such as video recording or audio recording or written notarized account that she believed ABC, when confronted with her disorder feelings she will deny that it is her on those recordings, or her signature (does this sound familiar relative to current events?)

This tells you which is the cart and which is the horse.  For her, the feelings are the horse and the facts/cart will follow where ever the horse leads.  This is not faulty reasoning which could be "corrected" by sufficient reasoning, justification, defense or explanation.  This behavior is a psychological defense mechanism.  PwBPD, unrecovered, do not have the emotions tools to manage/mitigate their disordered feelings.  Until they develop these tools, they will continue to depend upon distortions and "severe dissociative symptoms" as the means to cope with their disordered feelings.

This is where I get really depressed thinking “How do I move forward in a positive manner when the details change?”

I think one way to move forward is to accept how emotionally dysfunctional your BPD loved one is.  Learn their limitations.  Learn how to best navigate their limitations.  :)o not give in to the illusion that they can handle more than they can actually handle.

Does this mean you don't really have an emotional peer to help you raise your family?  Yes.  :)oes this mean it is impossible to function in such a family arrangement?  Not necessarily, but realize you need to get extra support because what would normally be a source of support in a life partnership (i.e. spouse) will actually be a drain on your personal resources.

[HouseDad3]

Schwing,

You really have helped me. Your posts have been insightful, thoughtful, educational, and both reassuring and frightening at the same time.

I have thought about recording or documenting conversations between her and I because of the changing facts. The thought became overwhelming because I felt I’d need to record every interaction to use later when it came back around. It sounds like if I did that it would be met with denial, additional attacks of mistrust, and otherwise not be effective in trying to add “logic” into an issue or discussion.  As you said, “You cannot rationalize yourself out of a situation that is at its core irrational.” Such an eye opening statement!  Spot on!

Years ago, she was referred to DBT by our couples therapist. (He later told me in an individual session how difficult it can be to steer a BPD into appropriate treatment without blowback from “attaching the BPD label to the person.”  Prior to the DBT session she acknowledged how helpful getting into treatment would be. She said she recognized her ill behavior and the associated anger/stress. She only attended one session then quit attending our couples therapy shortly after.

About a year later, police arrived at our home at the request of a mental health professional who feared she was suicidal based on comments she made over the phone while discussing her medication. With the police present, we all agreed I would drive her to the hospital to ensure her medication levels were appropriate. We went, they tested her blood, adjusted the medication, she met with a Psychiatrist,  was given a referral for a new therapist, and was released for home. I emailed the new therapist to provide background on why she was being referred and explained the BPD behavior and the information I had regarding “not labeling” BPD due to blowback. I assumed this would be information the therapist, using their professional expertise, could explore during sessions with her.

She attended therapy with the new T for about a year. Something happened though, she told me the T was moving out of state but I also overheard her tell someone she was kicked out of therapy “because of my husband’s untruthfulness.”  I did later learn the T did relocate to another state but I’ve never discovered why my wife stopped attending therapy. (I really do know - she chose to stop going after the T told her about the email I’d sent the year prior.  Again “labeling her BPD.”

I continued therapy with our original T, which is another huge issue with my wife. She emailed the T accusing him and I of conspiracy. He replied he didn’t have the skill set to treat her needs and when she dropped out of DBT/therapy he wasn’t going to take her in if she wasn’t willing to put in work in treatment.

She is now convinced she isn’t BPD and it’s been an ongoing conspiracy between our original T and me. She believes all the prior Psychiatrists, T’s, and even leading national BPD researchers have all told her she doesn’t exhibit the symptoms. She uses this as the basis for me being “untrustworthy.”

In closing, I’m scared!  She has fortified her position that she isn’t BPD and bluntly told me she won’t participate in therapy. Her behavior and episodes are increasing, especially as the kids enter their teen years. I’ve struggled on how to educate my kids about her BPD without it exploding back that I’m turning the kids against her.  I am building emotional resources, like this Board and my T, my wife also holds a lot of the cards, so to speak. She is our sole financial provider. To add fuel to this fire, her mother, who is extremely BPD among  other ills, is arriving this week for a week long visit.

I’m conflicted. I’d leave, as she has requested countless times, but I can’t allow my kids to be her target without me being a buffer to her episodes.

Thanks again.

[schwing]

In closing, I’m scared!  She has fortified her position that she isn’t BPD and bluntly told me she won’t participate in therapy. Her behavior and episodes are increasing, especially as the kids enter their teen years.

Don't be scared.  She is tell you quite consistently what her limits are in terms of her acceptance of her own disorder.  I would put this in the same category as being with an alcoholic or drug-addict who is unable to accept their own problem; you cannot expect them to enter into rehab, until they are ready for their own reasons.

And this is also probably way seeking support from groups such as Alanon is somewhat compatible for people with BPD loved ones; we share similar situations and traits.  The important thing to recognize is that we all can use extra support.

I’ve struggled on how to educate my kids about her BPD without it exploding back that I’m turning the kids against her.  I am building emotional resources, like this Board and my T, my wife also holds a lot of the cards, so to speak. She is our sole financial provider. To add fuel to this fire, her mother, who is extremely BPD among  other ills, is arriving this week for a week long visit.

Frankly, as your children naturally develop their independence, she will accuse you (or them) to turning against her.  People with BPD will respond to other people developing their appropriate independence as perceived (or imagined) abandonment.  You will never convince her otherwise.

Do what you need to do to help insure that your children's family home is as stable and healthy as possible. 

[ArleighBurke]

I want to go back to the start:

Last night, my wife angrily asked me why I was driving a total of six people in the small wagon, “loading more people than seatbelts!”  She then listed all the names.

• A diffusing technique can be enter her hypothetical situation, and agree. "You're right - *IF* I was driving with 6 people in the van that would certainly be a problem". She may go a few directions from there. If she tells you that you were, then you can provide truth "John wasn't there - I only had 5".
• Or you can try to guess what she is feeling. "You're right - *IF* I was driving with 6 people in the van that would certainly be a problem. I could imagine that would make you feel quite worried about my safety". Again, her response then dictates where the conversation goes... .
• A third technique to try is agree and amplify. It can get good results, but whether it works really depends on many factors (including how fast you can think on your feet). "Well I was trying to get the whole 10 members of the team in there but as they were loading in John accidentally touched Barrys butt so then no-one wanted to ride with him". This technique trys not to enter her reality. You stay in your frame, your "make believe". It's light, fun, and can work well.

She uses this as the basis for me being “untrustworthy.”

My BPD wife used this word a lot as well. I could never quite pin down what she meant by it - I suspect she meant that *something* inside her was throwing up a wall around you - and rather than realise it was her own fear/BPD it was easier to find something to blame it on.

Again, agree and amplify *can* work. The more ridiculus the better.  ":)amn honey - you're onto me. I have this 10yr plan to recruit hundred of professionals to slowly erode your sanity. And then, when the time is right, like when i'm 50 - I'll have you locked up and I'll be free! I'll be able to finally live my dream of being a street mime... .". <walking away>

[HouseDad3]

Schwing,

Wow!  Your reply today was the same advice my T and I spoke about in our session today. You are right, she needs to have something inside her want to seek treatment - still, I struggle thinking how long it may take; how long I can hold on.

My T and I discussed me being the provider of stability at home for the kids. I’m fighting to hold it together because of the kids. I agree with you, as the kids age and gain/explore/test their independence it will certainly increase feelings of abandonment in her.

ArleighBurke,  I love your third technique suggestion. My kind of humor!  My guess is she will have a puzzled look on her face and say, “I don’t understand.” Then after a moment, she’ll  want me call the police to be report being a witness to John’s sexual assault of Barry.

As I wrote earlier, her very BPD mother arrives tomorrow for a week long visit. They spoke on the phone today and my wife told me the issues she has with her mother’s untruths. To shorten the story, her mother said she completed a list of complicated tasks on her own. In reality, my wife completed the tasks on behalf of her mother because her mother isn’t remotely capable of doing them. So my wife tells me, “I don’t think she lied on purpose, I think it’s her mental issues. I think she really thinks, I’m some weird twisted way it was her doing those things. I want to yell at her because of all the sh** I went though to get through the tasks!”

I’m thinking, “Like mother, like daughter.”  This is also common with my wife. She will vent to me about how her mother is “crazy” and describes the exact behaviors she displays to me and our kids!  About six months ago, I thought I could use that as an opportunity to introduce some books about dealing with those behaviors. One of the books was “I Hate You, Don’t Leave Me”. I said, “This may help in understanding your mother.” Oh boy, was that a mistake!  It has become a continuous reason for me being so untrustworthy. She immediately assaulted me verbally stating it was all really about her and my conspiracy theory pertaining to her BPD. True, I wanted her to have a “realization” but now know how wrong it was to “force” it.

So here I wait. Wait for the moment she’ll see the truth. I’m not out to get her. I’m here to help and get help.

Can’t wait for tomorrow!  (Not really)

Thanks to all of you and the support here.

[formflier]

Great discussion!  

There is a lot of trial and error involved in crafting responses.  Avoiding a direct "confrontation" is usually best, because that is usually what they are after (as you found out with "correct" information).

I also find it wise to stay authentic... .perhaps you can't express all your authentic emotions, but if you try to fake something... .anything, pwBPd will rat you out quick.  My guess is they, for a number of reasons, have gotten hyper-vigilant about "reading" people and are usually good at figuring out BS.

I've found a pretty happy home with "shock" and "befuddlement".  I would think we can all agree most of this stuff is shocking and befuddling.

"Oh goodness babe... .6 people in the little wagon! "  

I usually then ask a direct question and wait.  "Are you interested in hearing my memories of (fill in blank)"?

The answer is no, but my wife kinda gets it we are supposed to listen to each other.  Basically, for me making her really uncomfortable, without accusing her... .works wonders.

I've tried sarcasm and jokes... .it rarely works.  I mean... I enjoy it... .but it usually honks off my wife pretty good.  Which is sometimes worth it.

"Are you sure?... .I mean Bubba's a$$ alone takes up two seatbelts"... .pause  "I don't know... maybe he was there, but you would think I would remember  because of the smell, do you remember that time Frank pulled his finger."

There have been other times I've tried odd ways of validation and agreement... and being honest.  "Babe... .I feel like a a-hole tonight. Let's talk tomorrow."

See how all of these responses don't "directly" engage the issue.  

Dude... .therapy.  Focus on it for you and your family and use boundaries to isolate your wife.

Right now there are several issues I've declared I will only talk about in a therapists office.  Which means won't talk about them.  Her choice.  I respect that.

I've also stopped doing all the religious marriage improvement stuff.  It may work for some, but kinda pours fuel on our r/s.  Of course... .I've offered to discuss it further in... .you know... .that place.

FF

Schwing... .good to see you around!   

https://youtu.be/szkgylvDYA4