I'm sorry Not in a good place to help anyone just yet. Heard from my lawyer

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Crap.
I now feel like I got major betrayed by my lawyer.
It's after midnight, and I'm sick to my stomach, I can't sleep. I hate everyone right now. (Sorry. I don't really don't hate everyone, just everyone involved in this divorce.)
There is a huge amount of money involved. And forgive me because I'm so upset I'm just jumping around here.
I feel like I have been taken advantage of for the past 10 years. I hate my STBX and I really hate my in-laws, who are mega rich and pretend to care about all the "right" causes.
In the meantime, I'm on food stamps. I have had NO money since November. I was betrayed by the CPA.
I hate these people I hate them
I effing hate them and now I think I may hate my lawyer, who wants me to waive my right to interim by getting a lump sum for the divorce.
The interim, if we'd back dated it, would have been just under $50K
And I'm supposed to waive that.
No.
And L suggests that I take out a mortgage. I'm in my mid 60s. I never had terrific credit and now that I've been totally cut off, I have way worse credit. Everything's late.
Please God I just need to go to sleep.
I HATE

[toomanydogs]

Crap.
I now feel like I got major betrayed by my lawyer.
It's after midnight, and I'm sick to my stomach, I can't sleep. I hate everyone right now. (Sorry. I don't really don't hate everyone, just everyone involved in this divorce.)
There is a huge amount of money involved. And forgive me because I'm so upset I'm just jumping around here.
I feel like I have been taken advantage of for the past 10 years. I hate my STBX and I really hate my in-laws, who are mega rich and pretend to care about all the "right" causes.
In the meantime, I'm on food stamps. I have had NO money since November. I was betrayed by the CPA.
I hate these people I hate them
I effing hate them and now I think I may hate my lawyer, who wants me to waive my right to interim by getting a lump sum for the divorce.
The interim, if we'd back dated it, would have been just under $50K
And I'm supposed to waive that.
No.
And L suggests that I take out a mortgage. I'm in my mid 60s. I never had terrific credit and now that I've been totally cut off, I have way worse credit. Everything's late.
Please God I just need to go to sleep.
I HATE

[ozmatoz]

Hey there toomanydogs, I hope you were able to get a few hours of rest.  It seems like everyone's version of pain and anguish through a divorce is different but it certainly seems like there are some common threads.  Betrayal, lies, re-writing of history, convenient "memory loss", flip flopping... .just a litany of crazy making.

My relationship is hitting "critical mass" at the moment and I'm just trying to survive long enough to get papers served.  I've done all I can to move things along and here I am last minute hearing about how the words she used against me for the last year + were "just words".  Seriously I don't know how these people can't see that words have just as much consequence as physical actions.

Anyways thats my rant of the moment and I guess my point is that I know when I'm exhausted things feel so much worse.  And sometimes the worse things really do get the harder it is to rest.  Vicious cycle.

I hope you can get some clarification from your L, and some much needed peace and rest.

We're all here for you.
-Oz

[ForeverDad]

A downside to rejecting a lump sum payment is that the divorce would be delayed even more.  In return for their request to do lump sum, they must have made an offer to buy you out.  With you as bummed out as you are, sounds like it wasn't much?  Understand that his lawyers are probably trying to get the best outcome for their side which means a low-ball offer.  Likely they're expecting you to play the negotiation game, say No and give your counteroffer terms.  (It ought to be higher than what you expect to get since they might raise their first offer but not as much as the number you send them.)

[toomanydogs]

A downside to rejecting a lump sum payment is that the divorce would be delayed even more.  In return for their request to do lump sum, they must have made an offer to buy you out.  With you as bummed out as you are, sounds like it wasn't much?  Understand that his lawyers are probably trying to get the best outcome for their side which means a low-ball offer.  Likely they're expecting you to play the negotiation game, say No and give your counteroffer terms.  (It ought to be higher than what you expect to get since they might raise their first offer but not as much as the number you send them.)

Hi ForeverDad,
Without sharing so much that I'm identifiable, let me share a few a things. And I got sleep after taking Xanax. I now feel groggy, but at least I'm not bouncing off the walls, and at least I can think.
First, I have had no money since November. My L put together what I considered a reasonable interim offer: No backdating of the money itself, but enough money to make me whole in the sense that it would pay for my credit card debt, the past due electric bill (scheduled to be turned off the 26th of this month), and paying back $3000 in loans from friends. I was okay with that even though if we backdated, the amount would have been just under $50K. The way the L did it, it's roughly $17K. The advantage is it should have been quicker for me to be made whole.
Second, my STBX's side (and I'm sure this is coming from my FIL, who is trustee of the trust we lived on and incredibly astute and aggressive with money) has insisted from the start that I come up with the first offer. I  have always been uncomfortable with this because I have wanted to see what they were thinking so I'd know I was in the ballpark.
Third, I am "protected" by a prenup; however, in my state a spouse cannot waive his/her right to alimony. Given my age (mid-60s) and the length of the marriage (10 years), I am a candidate for permanent alimony.
Fourth, I put together a settlement offer, which I sent to my L; in it, I explained that my FIL will counter offer, and we need to start high.
Fifth, I got the settlement offer L put together last night. It is extremely low ball; L explained that if we asked for too high a figure then my FIL might balk. My FIL LOVES to bargain; it's in his nature, and I have ceased being a DIL to him; I am nothing but a business negotiation, meaning that when he sees such a low first offer, he, unlike what L seems to think, he is not going to say, "Hey, TMD is being reasonable. Let's settle." He is going to say, "Okay, let's counter offer."

These figures are very high; however, let's say I was asking for $50K per year in alimony. If I were to live another 30 years (quite probable), that is $1.5 million. So given that I have lived a more extravagant life than that, my L told me that I'd be able to maintain my lifestyle. Not with the figure she came up with because my FIL will counter offer.

I am now seriously considering going pro se.

The other issue is I think my L has a conflict of interest. Ostensibly she represents me, but my FIL pays her.

I am still very upset; however, I will be talking a friend who is a lawyer out of state in about half an hour, get her take on this.

Thank you for taking the time to get back to me,

TMD

[GaGrl]

Don't go pro se. Get another lawyer. You are correct - that is too close to a conflict of interest (maybe not technically, but still... .).

[Radcliff]

Hi toomanydogs,

I'm sorry to hear about the difficult time you are having!  I'm also sorry for my ignorance, as I haven't been following your story.  I'm hoping you'll let me ask some questions... .

Why is it that you weren't receiving some sort of regular interim support?
Can you clarify what the lump sum proposal is?  Is it for the interim support or for ongoing spousal support?  Interim support seems like that would be a lump sum anyway.  I'm fuzzy on whether the $17K and $50K figures are per year or lump sum.

WW

[toomanydogs]

Hi toomanydogs,

I'm sorry to hear about the difficult time you are having!  I'm also sorry for my ignorance, as I haven't been following your story.  I'm hoping you'll let me ask some questions... .

Why is it that you weren't receiving some sort of regular interim support?

My STBX and I were living on his trust. Every month a stipend was sent into the joint account; STBX cleared out joint account at the end of August, two weeks after he moved out, but the stipend was then sent to the CPA who then distributed it to me.
When I hired the legal firm, there was no reason to ask for interim because I was still getting money from FIL funneled through CPA. That stopped in November. FIL said he would continue to pay for upkeep on the house--also owned through the Trust--through the CPA. However, they stopped paying utilities in December, and as I had been paying ongoing legal fees ($10,000) I was pretty much out of money.
My L then filed for emergency interim on Dec. 21. We have a hearing scheduled for the end of April to determine interim. My L and I worked out an interim budget, so that we'd not have to go to the hearing.

Can you clarify what the lump sum proposal is?  Is it for the interim support or for ongoing spousal support?  Interim support seems like that would be a lump sum anyway.  I'm fuzzy on whether the $17K and $50K figures are per year or lump sum.
WW

In an effort to avoid going to a hearing, my L, with my okay, developed an interim budget that would be payable starting at the beginning of March. I thought interim would be backdated to November when I stopped receiving money. It wouldn't have.
It would have required going back to Sept. 1 as my STBX filed for divorce the end of August. Going back to September would have required that STBX turn over all his sources of income. Not a bad thing with a high-functioning, cooperative individual; however, my STBX has a history of not showing up for court dates.
The backdated amount would have been approximately $50K. The interim I approved, because it included all my past dues and my credit card balances, which are currently over $10K, would have been a lump sum of $17K, with interim being around $6K monthly until the divorce settles.
I had a 45-minute argument with my L on Friday regarding what is a reasonable settlement offer for me to submit. Because my FIL made his money by negotiating, I cannot start at a figure that will enable me to live out the rest of my life (I'm a candidate for permanent alimony because of my age, which would prevent my being employed; the length of the marriage; and the discrepancy in income.
My original suggestion for a lump sum, as opposed to ongoing spousal support, would have been 17 percent of my STBX's current net worth.
My L told me there was a saying in the law firm, "Pigs get fed; hogs get slaughtered."
I have grave doubts that the L is the right attorney after essentially saying I was greedy.
Thanks for responding,
TMD

[Radcliff]

toomanydogs,

I have only just joined this conversation, and don't know a lot about conditions "on the ground" where you are, but two things you mention concern me about your lawyer.  One is your description of his "hogs" comment.  The other is that he didn't push for interim support in the first place.  Even if you weren't assertive about it, I would have hoped that a lawyer who was looking out for you would have pushed the point on your behalf, educating you even if you thought it wasn't necessary.

My initial impression of your approach to this situation is that you are being rational in assessing both your needs and your husband's ability to pay.

At least one state has laws that require equal representation for each spouse in a divorce.  They are specifically designed to prevent one party with access to funds from outspending another.  The spouse with no money can apply to have the spouse with money pay for her legal expenses.  It would be lucky if you have such laws in your state, but it may be worth checking.  If you had equal access to legal representation, you'd probably be talking more like 80% of the backdated interim support -- just a slight discount to avoid legal haggling.

W.r.t. the buyout of long-term support, do you have a financial advisor to help you with this?  I am sure your father-in-law does.  It's very easy to come out on the wrong side of those calculations.  One quick and dirty way to look at it is to think about living off of 2.5% of the nest egg.  Would 2.5% of the nest egg give you an equal amount to the support you'd be entitled to?  That 2.5% is conservative.  It assumes you'll live forever   You might be able to be a little more spendy than that!  Again, though, good financial advice is important; don't go by my shot from the hip.

WW

[toomanydogs]

Thanks, Wentworth! I do have a financial advisor--a friend--back east.
And I just heard from my L; she again is pushing for a settlement offer. And she's pushing for an annuity with no death benefit. I told her originally I'd consider working on the settlement offer once I had interim in the bank, then told her I'd get back to her this week sometime after I spoke with my financial advisor.
I'm not happy with my L.
TMD

[ForeverDad]

Alimony is taxable on your Federal return, so expect some of that to be remitted each year to the government.  Not sure how annuities are handled.

It appears that your possible interim deal would be nearly what I made before I lost my job a year ago.  I haven't found a decent one since and my SSA calcs would have me living on about $1400 per month, less than 1/4 what I had earned in the most recent years.  Of course, you may live in a state or area that is far more expensive than where I live and more would be required to maintain your lifestyle.  Still, it's possible that you may walk out with less than what you would need to continue living as you were before the separation.  In negotiations you can't reveal that, but it would be prudent to prepare for whatever the final result may be.

[Radcliff]

I'm confused about why an annuity would be mentioned.  I'm a newbie at this, keep in mind.  If your husband were to give you a lump sum, then whether or not he writes a check to an insurance company for an annuity, or writes a check to you for the same amount, shouldn't matter to him.  If you want an annuity there's nothing preventing you from buying one from an insurance company yourself.

You may know this already, but when you get an annuity, you're giving a lump sum to an insurance company so that they will give you a set amount per month, usually for the rest of your life.  They run the odds and essentially guess when you'll die.  Just like in gambling, the house always wins.  If you die at the average time, they still make money, which comes out of your pocket.  If you are willing to take some of the risk, you can make more money with an investment portfolio on your own.  On the other hand, if you are really, really sure you're going to live much longer than the insurance company thinks, then stick it to 'em  

Is there a reason you would want a death benefit on an annuity?  I'm presuming that would occur when you die?  Is there someone you need to provide for?  The death benefit would mean lower monthly payments (no such thing as a free lunch) and it seems that you'd want to have as much income as possible.

If I'm off base on any of this annuity stuff, or there's a reason for it, please teach!  I would be happy to learn.

Another issue is the calculation of the lump sum amount.  Well, first of all, you have to agree on what an appropriate monthly payment is.  Then translating to a lump sum involves all sorts of assumptions about inflation, investment return, etc.  You need very solid financial advice on this, not from a lawyer, unless the lawyer happens also to be a finance wiz.  Your husbands side will certainly make a set of assumptions that are favorable to him.  Investment rate of return is the most obvious one.  Since that exponentially affects how much money you get, that is a prime area for you to be taken advantage of.

What are your thoughts about lump sum vs. ongoing alimony?  Is alimony for the rest of your life?  If so, then another assumption behind lump sum is how long you'll live.  Yet another area for someone to take advantage of you.  The only reason I can think of to take a lump sum is if you doubt your husband's ability to pay in the future.  Other than that, it seems like if you take a lump sum, you are doing him a favor, and the financial terms should be advantageous to you.  No taking advantage of you on any of those assumptions.

You are going to live with the results of this for a long long time.  For that reason alone, you need to have a lawyer who you trust.  They exist!  I have been fortunate to have a lawyer who has built trust with me at every interaction.  The journey still is rough, but trusting my lawyer has immensely helped my mental state.  The good news is that you are wiser now, and have a very focused interest.

"Splitting" as you know has a section on finding lawyers.  There's also a technique for hiring taught in a book by Lou Adler, "Hire With Your Head."  :)uring the interview, you have the candidate "anchor" and "visualize."  "Anchoring" means you have the candidate tell you about previous projects they worked on that are similar to yours.  You ask deep detail -- what made the project (case) hard, and how did she solve the problems?  "Visualizing" is the next step, where you have them walk you through what they see as the challenges of your case, and how they would address them.  It is very powerful to develop a standard set of questions, and use them on each candidate, so you can compare apples to apples.  The winners will often be easy to see.  Since you are narrowly focused on the financial settlement, you'll likely end up liking lawyers with a higher than average capability in that area.

Sorry this is so long.  My questions are buried up there, so here they are again:
* Why do an annuity?  Is a death benefit important?
* Would alimony continue until you die?  If not, for how long?
* What are your thoughts on a lump sum vs. alimony?
* Is all of this stuff something your friend back east is very solid on?  :)o you need additional advice?

WW

[toomanydogs]

Wentworth,
I'm running out the door. Will get back to you on what's happened and what my next step may or may not be.
TMD

[ForeverDad]

Wentworth explained annuities very well.  Right now we're just coming out, hopefully, of many years with minimal inflation.  Getting an annuity now would mean the insurance companies are going to offer you the equivalent of minimal returns for the entire period.  What if inflation kicks in, as many expect?  That's why getting an annuity at the market bottom probably isn't wise.  In addition, there are often huge fees to buy out an annuity.

Same with a set payment amount, whether annuity or regular payment.  Let's say you get $5K per month.  Unless the amount is annually adjusted upward for inflation (COLA = cost of living adjustment) then what you may feel is a decent amount now in a couple years will feel less.  Using that example, in a few years that $5K could feel less, like $4K, unless the payment rises to 6K?  Make sense?  Probably tying a payment to some sort of COLA is smart, well, unless you do get a lump sum.

Remember that there are some expenses that aren't regular every month, above and beyond standard utilities.  If it's a good property then I suspect the real estate taxes are fairly high, but only once or twice a year.  Don't forget their impact.

[toomanydogs]

I'm confused about why an annuity would be mentioned.  I'm a newbie at this, keep in mind.  If your husband were to give you a lump sum, then whether or not he writes a check to an insurance company for an annuity, or writes a check to you for the same amount, shouldn't matter to him.  If you want an annuity there's nothing preventing you from buying one from an insurance company yourself.

More reason I was having/am still having concerns about my L. She initially told me that to get a lump sum, I'd need to have it spent down within 30 years, that I wouldn't be able to have any appreciable amount left. This makes no sense to me.
I then told her to ask for permanent alimony then. If I were to go permanent alimony, it would amount to twice the lump sum I requested. Of course, there's always the chance I'll die early, but since I'm already old... . 

You may know this already, but when you get an annuity, you're giving a lump sum to an insurance company so that they will give you a set amount per month, usually for the rest of your life.  They run the odds and essentially guess when you'll die.  Just like in gambling, the house always wins.  If you die at the average time, they still make money, which comes out of your pocket.  If you are willing to take some of the risk, you can make more money with an investment portfolio on your own.  On the other hand, if you are really, really sure you're going to live much longer than the insurance company thinks, then stick it to 'em  

In order to understand what my L was telling me about getting an annuity, I had to look it up, and I had to ask my friend, who's a financial adviser and advises against annuities.

Is there a reason you would want a death benefit on an annuity?  I'm presuming that would occur when you die?  Is there someone you need to provide for?  The death benefit would mean lower monthly payments (no such thing as a free lunch) and it seems that you'd want to have as much income as possible.

This goes back to my L. In one of the settlement offers she suggested, she was reassuring to STBX's lawyer that there would be no death benefit.
Because there's money involved and because I don't know that much about money, I'm very concerned when I don't understand. This is my future.
And, as far as anyone I'd want to provide for, I'd like to provide for my grandkids. They need a college fund, but I don't need an annuity for that.

What are your thoughts about lump sum vs. ongoing alimony?  Is alimony for the rest of your life?  If so, then another assumption behind lump sum is how long you'll live.  Yet another area for someone to take advantage of you.  The only reason I can think of to take a lump sum is if you doubt your husband's ability to pay in the future.  Other than that, it seems like if you take a lump sum, you are doing him a favor, and the financial terms should be advantageous to you.  No taking advantage of you on any of those assumptions.

I am saving him money by taking a lump sum. And because of that, I need to have very very very close to what I requested; otherwise, no deal.
I worked with a friend who's a lawyer and whose wife is the financial adviser. The financial adviser advised factoring in inflation should I go permanent alimony. And, yes, I qualify for permanent alimony because I'm retirement age. I spent the last 11 years of my life taking care of my STBX's issues, and there is a HUGE disparity in our incomes.
I am requesting a fairly substantial lump sum, to be invested as I see fit, and title to the marital home. Or additional money so that I can purchase a home that will accommodate the farm animals my STBX and I accumulated.

My questions are buried up there, so here they are again:
* Why do an annuity?  Is a death benefit important?
* Would alimony continue until you die?  If not, for how long?
* What are your thoughts on a lump sum vs. alimony?
* Is all of this stuff something your friend back east is very solid on?  :)o you need additional advice?

WW

I should have read your post more carefully and then embedded my answers. I won't do an annuity. I wrote the settlement offer and struck out all my L's discussion of annuities.
Alimony would continue until I die.
I'd prefer a lump sum just to be rid of my STBX and his family.
My friends back east: One is a lawyer, 35+ years experience. No longer licensed to practice where I live, so she can't represent me. Her wife is a financial adviser; Ph.D. in economics, certified in financial planning, working in a think tank back east. I trust their expertise and wish like hell they lived out where I live.
Thanks, Wentworth,
TMD

[Radcliff]

TMD,

It really seems like you're on the ball here, and that's fantastic that you have your friends back east to give you advice.  Finances may not be your expertise, but you clearly are sharp enough to ask questions and learn from someone for whom it is their expertise.  I work a lot with experts who have knowledge I do not, whether it's in my professional life or my personal life.  The really good ones, the ones I trust, are willing to teach me at my level.  The ones who wave their hands or gloss over things send me running for the hills!

Your desire for a lump sum is understandable.  Make sure your friends walk you through all of their assumptions in calculating the lump sum you're asking for, so you understand it and accept the risks... .but you said you already submitted a settlement offer.  So did you already figure out a lump sum you're comfortable with?  When do you expect a response on the settlement offer?

Somewhere on the other side of this is some peace and calm.  You'll get there!

WW

[formflier]

At first blush... .I like the idea of permanent alimony with inflation factored in.

Ask your L to also include some sort of "performance bond" (that they pay for).

So... .the basic settlement would be the property free and clear... .plus the permanent alimony... right?

Have you had your friends fund an analysis of property taxes?  Or perhaps have the included in the alimony.

Alimony would be

1.  pay property taxes
2.  pay the yearly amount
3.  pay the yearly adjusted inflation amount.


My message here... .leave lots of room in your financial planning to cover property taxes... .especially if it 10 years the value (according to government)... .skyrockets.

FF

[toomanydogs]

At first blush... .I like the idea of permanent alimony with inflation factored in.

Ask your L to also include some sort of "performance bond" (that they pay for).

So... .the basic settlement would be the property free and clear... .plus the permanent alimony... right?

Have you had your friends fund an analysis of property taxes?  Or perhaps have the included in the alimony.

Alimony would be

1.  pay property taxes
2.  pay the yearly amount
3.  pay the yearly adjusted inflation amount.


My message here... .leave lots of room in your financial planning to cover property taxes... .especially if it 10 years the value (according to government)... .skyrockets.

FF

Hi FF,
  I'm spiraling again. I have a tentative appointment with a new L tomorrow. I hope it's worth money for the second opinion.
  The settlement offer asked for a lump sum as opposed to permanent alimony. If my H ever gets back to me (well, I guess his lawyer gets back to my lawyer), he needs to settle on that lump sum without trying to low ball me, or I change that offer to permanent alimony.
  If they do the lump sum, it's approximately half of what permanent alimony would be, but the benefit of lump sum is that I can just move the F on with my life, and it would leave me fairly wealthy.
  I'd be able to invest with that amount of money, but it has to be mine free and clear. No annuity. No cannibalizing as my L said I'd have to do. the lump sum benefits them.
  And yes I'm asking for title to the house. If they aren't willing to do that, then I'm asking for money to buy another place in the same area with acreage for the animals we accrued during the marriage.
  I don't know if I should get a second opinion. Ride this out with the L I have now. It bothers me no end that she's being paid by my FIL as trustee of the trust.
  Like I said, I'm spiraling. I put a dog down on Monday. I'm pretty much feeling horrible. I'm so sorry that I can't be of much support here for what people are going through. I hate being this self-absorbed. I want to be who I normally am.
TMD

[Radcliff]

TMD,

Don't worry about supporting others now!  You're in a tough spot.  Keep yourself afloat so you're in good shape to help others later.  You're having a bad day, but someone else is having a good day.  They'll cover, and you can cover for them when they are down.

I'm so sorry to hear about the dog!  I had to do that as well a little while back, the first time I had to do it with a dog in my adult life, and it was terrible.  Feel free to share a little about the dog if you'd like.

What do you mean about the lump sum being half the permanent alimony?  :)o you mean that the income off the lump sum would be half the amount of permanent alimony?  What percentage of the lump sum are you assuming you'd consume each year?  Figures I've seen for living off a lump sum range from 2-3% per year that you can consume if you want it to last forever.  If you're older and want to take guesses about how long you'll live you can consider being more aggressive.  What I'm really getting at is whether your lump sum is selling yourself short.  I.m.h.o., (admittedly with no experience in divorce negotiations) a lump sum should be calculated to give you an income equal to what you would have gotten from permanent alimony.  You're doing him a favor by offering him a buyout and getting out of his life, not the other way around!  Well, I suppose by taking the lump sum you eliminate his risk of nonpayment in the future, which is a benefit to you, and he does have to come up with a large amount of money.  Perhaps that is worth a discount.  But you don't have to tell him that!

Just the act of seeing a second lawyer will help you.  You'll see another perspective, and will see a sample of another lawyer to see how you feel about him or her.

WW

[toomanydogs]

TMD,
... .
I'm so sorry to hear about the dog!  I had to do that as well a little while back, the first time I had to do it with a dog in my adult life, and it was terrible.  Feel free to share a little about the dog if you'd like.

Thanks. This is quite an aside, but I met with my T/coach yesterday, still pretty upset about the dog, and one of the things I was upset about was that she was in a multiple dog family, and came after we already had dogs. My son had "his" dog, my daughter hers, and I had mine. So I felt guilty that this dog never had "her" person.
What I realized was that I was projecting my own feeling about never really being loved by my STBX. I was never really "his" wife.
I've been going over emails from 11 years ago, and I can now see he wrote what he thought lovers wrote, and he did so because what he really wanted was for me to write and edit for him (because of the cognitive stuff going on his brain, he can't sequence--move a plot from one point to another, and because he has no social skills, he can't really engage a reader except through shock value: think Two Girls & A Cup.)
The acknowledgment made me realize that I ignored not necessarily what I'd call red flags, but more I ignored a sense of artifice to his approach with me. From the start.
If I have to go to court to prove consummation, I have the emails. They are quite erotic. Graphic, even.
I have been publishing these emails in slightly doctored form as fiction on my webpage. I've done so that I own copyright. My STBX is notorious for not giving appropriate credit.

What do you mean about the lump sum being half the permanent alimony?  :)o you mean that the income off the lump sum would be half the amount of permanent alimony?  What percentage of the lump sum are you assuming you'd consume each year?

Yes. A lump sum would be slightly less than half of what permanent alimony would be, if you extended that yearly amount to my expected life span.
This is part of the reason I want a second opinion from a different lawyer. First, my L told me given my age (mid-60s) that I'd be expected to cannibalize any lump sum settlement. In other words, by the time I'm in my 90s (and given my genes and the longevity of 90% of my relatives, both maternal and paternal, that age is probable.), I'd be expected to have very little of that money left.
The problem with having very little left when I'm in my 90s is that's when I could conceivably need in-home care or assisted living. With the amount of money I could conceivably have from a lump sum, paying for my own home care would be advised as opposed to paying for long-term insurance.
However, if I dig into the principal of the lump sum in my 80s, I could very well be destitute in my 90s, if I've been expected to dig into that kind of lump sum.
I believe I need a financial advisor here in my state to advise me on this situation.
To get a financial advisor, I need a L who will pierce the trust now, so I have $$ to do exactly that.
The problem there is that quite a few people in my life knew me when I had no money. I was a single mom, who got her B.A. at 40, her M.A. at 44, and then worked on her doctorate. I raised my 2 kids on student loans, scholarships, part-time jobs, and food stamps. I have a humble background.
So some people look at that and think if I only get $50K per year in permanent alimony, I'm making a fortune. The problem is that for the past 11 years, I have been sharing my STBX's income from his trust, which is five times that.
At question is whether I should be able to maintain my standard of living. Of course, there will be a bit of a drop, but I don't think I should be expected to return to a standard of living I haven't had in 11 years.
To some people that makes me appear greedy.
What I've told those people is that let's pretend my STBX has $25. Is it reasonable that he give me $5? That, to me, seems eminently reasonable. The issue is that it is so much money that 20% of his "$25" would result in my being wealthy.
People, friends actually, have advised that in order to get away from these people, I take $1 or $1.50 or even $2, but if you divide into those figures by 30 years, that amount of money will not last me. (Sorry this is so long.)

 Figures I've seen for living off a lump sum range from 2-3% per year that you can consume if you want it to last forever.  If you're older and want to take guesses about how long you'll live you can consider being more aggressive.  What I'm really getting at is whether your lump sum is selling yourself short.  I.m.h.o., (admittedly with no experience in divorce negotiations) a lump sum should be calculated to give you an income equal to what you would have gotten from permanent alimony.  You're doing him a favor by offering him a buyout and getting out of his life, not the other way around!  

My opinion exactly. And then I come back to the fact that my L has not been paid. She is waiting for payment from my FIL, who is trustee to the trust. He is working through another lawyer, one my L worked for 10 years ago, a lawyer who seems knowledgeable, but I still feel concerned that if my L's bill has not been paid (and I have no way without piercing that trust) and L is waiting for payment from the trust then she has a logical investment in getting me to settle quickly. As of right now, she's owed an additional $5000.

Just the act of seeing a second lawyer will help you.  You'll see another perspective, and will see a sample of another lawyer to see how you feel about him or her.

WW

Thanks, WW. The lawyer that I had been scheduled to see had to cancel for conflict of interest. My guess is that my STBX's lawyer called her for a second opinion re: alimony.
The prenup I signed waived my right to my alimony. In my state, right to alimony cannot be waived.  The state wants to prevent divorced spouses from becoming wards of the state. I'm a "kinda ward of the state," in that I'm now on food stamps and had to take early social security.
In addition, this lawyer specializes in "golden year" divorces, which I'm in my golden years although my STBX is not.
There is another lawyer, who I know my STBX could not have used because I'd gone to her before.
This other L may be beneficial as a second opinion.
Regardless, we have a hearing scheduled towards the end of the month (my 10th anniversary, ironically enough) to determine interim. I've been without an income since November 2017. Since my STBX left in August, any back interim would need to be figured from that date. it is to my STBX's benefit to move this forward. He will save significant money by settling on interim now.
By delaying, he's giving me no incentive to settle for as little as my L and I offered.
I've given myself to just before that hearing to decide on selling my car and getting a rental for a bit. Selling the car would enable me to pay down my considerable credit card debt. Around 50%. I'd have to pay part of the debt just to rent a car for a bit. But the remainder could go to finding a different L who will pierce the trust, avoid the appearance of impropriety, and get me the hell out of this situation.
God, this was a very long post. I woke up at 4am again, and I tend to write uncensored in the early morning. If you've gotten this far, thank you!  
TMD

[formflier]

Generally... annuities are taxed each year... .just like other income.

My Mom has one... .she turned in her retirement (at retirement) and has been guaranteed a monthly amount for the rest of her life. We get a 1099 each year that we use to file taxes.

Her Mom (my grandmother) "died young" at around 94 years old.  Several Aunts went over 100.  So... .the longevity part will likely work out for her.

Here is the thing... .getting roughly the same monthly amount when you are 95... .as compared to when you were 65... .might not.  In my Mom's case there is other income... .and assets... .

Back to TMDs case.

I would want to understand why your L wants to push so hard for annuity.

I would think that you would want to get them on the hook for a set amount... .(lump sum) and then start discussing options about how long it will be paid for.

If you choose alimony... you would want to make sure they don't run out of money (which is why a performance bond is likely wise)

Honestly... .I tend to lean towards alimony.  If your only reason is "I want to be done with them)... .that seems like an expensive decision "FOR YOU". 

I would think if you are pissed off... you would want to make is expense "for them".

FF

[Radcliff]

TMD,

No worries, long posts are helpful when they are as clearly thought out as yours was.

OK, I now understand what you meant about the lump sum being half the total amount of payments expected over time.  Having it be some fraction makes sense, because of the "time value of money" -- that you have that money now, and can invest it, so it can grow to be equal to the total amount of alimony payments (assuming a dozen or so assumptions are accurate  ).  Your point about wanting to not be destitute in your final years when you might need care is a good one.  Whoever is doing the spreadsheet calculation to figure out your lump sum can add an appropriate amount of money in the final years for end of life care, and do the math to figure out how much that would be in present-day dollars.  I.m.h.o., a good financial advisor could do a bunch of this real-time with you in an hour long office visit.  A decent run of the numbers seems possible in two hours, and a bang-up job in half a day.  I'm not a pro -- just estimating from my own spreadsheet work for myself.  I'm just saying that it needn't cost thousands to get some numbers you feel good about.  It might be worth it to work now to find the person, and then get an estimate from them about how much time it would take.  You'd likely learn a bunch for free just in scoping them out.

All of your figuring sounds rational to me.  Ignore the folks that think you're being greedy.  Most people don't understand what a massive amount of money you need to live off of in retirement.  To get $20-30,000 a year in retirement income, you need $1 million in investments.  $1 million sounds like a crazy amount of money.  $20-30,000 does not!  My state takes into account the goal for divorcing spouses to preserve their standard of living.  I don't know how common this is, but I am under the impression it is common.  Does your state take into account standard of living?  Just looking at the optics of it, your husband is a non-golden year guy living off of a trust.  I don't think the powers that be would feel to sorry for him.

WW

[toomanydogs]

Hi WW,
  Divorce laws here benefit me in two ways: 1) Although I signed a prenup in which I waived my right to alimony, the state specifically disallows that. Waiving spousal support could result in a person becoming a ward of the state. So I am more relaxed about how the court will find.
2) The state also believes that, when possible, a standard of living should be maintained, especially when there is a huge disparity in income. In my case, the disparity is immense.
  Thank God for my friend who is a lawyer, and whose wife is a financial advisor. If it weren't for them, I'd start doubting the advisability of my requesting what I think is fair.
  I'm doing okay today. Found out the trash is supposed to be paid pretty soon. We'll see. Personally, I was getting a kick out of dumping all the recyclables into my STBX's car. He loves that car. 
TMD

[Radcliff]

  I'm doing okay today. Found out the trash is supposed to be paid pretty soon. We'll see. Personally, I was getting a kick out of dumping all the recyclables into my STBX's car. He loves that car. 
TMD

Hmmm... .you've stumped me.  I cannot come up with an appropriately sage bpdfamily response for this! 

What is your plan for the hearing at the end of the month?  Lean on your current lawyer to do you right, or try to find a new one?  One option is to get a new lawyer and ask for a short continuance in order to bring the new lawyer up to speed, if that suited your overal legal/financial situation.

WW

[ForeverDad]

Personally, I was getting a kick out of dumping all the recyclables into my STBX's car. He loves that car. 

Sadly, we are held to a higher standard than our ex-spouses, or so it seems to many of us.  After all, we're trying to present a persona to all that we're the ones behaving better.  You haven't gotten to court yet, and may never need to for all you know, but part of our defense is that we're the victims.  If we act as our ex acts, how are we different?

Yes, we need to discard refuse.  But in the ex's car?  It's an enticing thought - Walter Mitty style, go for the daydreaming - but probably we need to think twice before acting on it.

[toomanydogs]

Sadly, we are held to a higher standard than our ex-spouses, or so it seems to many of us.  After all, we're trying to present a persona to all that we're the ones behaving better.  You haven't gotten to court yet, and may never need to for all you know, but part of our defense is that we're the victims.  If we act as our ex acts, how are we different?

Yes, we need to discard refuse.  But in the ex's car?  It's an enticing thought - Walter Mitty style, go for the daydreaming - but probably we need to think twice before acting on it.

Hey ForeverDad,
I wouldn't call it refuse, per se, rather it was the smashed up cans, all contained in heavy-duty plastic bags that I stuck in his car. I did so because he and his trust haven't paid the trash bill for six months. However... .
Yesterday, I was told the bill had been paid, so I dragged the recyclables to an overflowing recyclable bin. Then after doing so, I discovered that the bill has not been paid, so I now have overblowing garbage cans outside, some recyclable cans, some just plain old stinky garbage.
But... .
Because I thought the garbage was being picked up, I dragged the accumulated trash from the garage outside. However, in doing so, I got a broken wheelbarrow wedged between his car and mine.
Not a good a situation. Either way I tried moving it got it further stuck. So I ended up having to move my car out of the garage in doing that put a huge gash in his car and a dent in my own.
I let my lawyer know immediately because STBX is going to think I scratched his car on purpose, so I wanted to protect myself.
I have filled the car with his shoes and all the posters he bought me.
Lawyer sent a very neutral-sounding letter to STBX's lawyer informing him of what had happened.
And L suggested that she was thinking of putting in another demand for legal fees. I advised her to ask for $25,000 to $30,000, so she wouldn't have to keep re-requesting.
Having the wheelbarrow break when I have horses I have to feed, hay I have to haul, pretty much enraged me, so I posted on FB about how angry I was.
I did not mention my ex by name. I didn't say anything untrue or anything that is simply true based on perspective.
The essence of that post was that I want my effin life back and I want it back now. I mentioned the broken wheelbarrow, the trash issue, and I mentioned that even I, considered too stupid to pay my own bills, knew that if you don't pay a trash bill for 6 months it's going to get suspended.
I am so so so so so tired of this. And I am so so so happy that my STBX and his despicable family are the hell out of my life.
TMD

My new motto: Get Mad, Stay Mad

[Radcliff]

My new motto: Get Mad, Stay Mad

[I am realizing that you might have been speaking tongue-in-cheek with the quote above.  If so, no worries.  If not, read below ]

Anger can serve a purpose.  It can give us the energy and staying power to get through a tough situation.  It can also get us in trouble.

Regarding the Facebook posts, when I'm on the fence about whether something I want to do could hurt me or someone else, I try not to ask the question, "Will something bad happen?" since I can usually convince myself that nothing bad is likely to happen.  I turn the question around, and say, "Is this likely to help the situation?"  I find I do a better job of staying out of trouble that way.  :)o you think your Facebook posts are likely to help your legal situation? (I am asking a rhetorical question from Internet land, safely out of arms reach   ).

You've got a lot of facts on your side.  You certainly sound like the reasonable one to me.  Keep that persona!

And, sorry to hear about the broken wheelbarrow.  Is it repairable?  I have a pretty cheap wheelbarrow that I wore out, then had to rebuild with some plywood in between the "bowl" and the wood handles.

WW

[toomanydogs]

[I am realizing that you might have been speaking tongue-in-cheek with the quote above.  If so, no worries.  If not, read below

Yeah, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek. I'm a writer and "Get Mad, Stay Mad" sounds better to my ear--more pithy--than ":)evelop boundaries, enforce boundaries." Or "Get Assertive, Stay Assertive."
What I truly believe is what you've written. I'm not afraid of my anger, but staying angry serves no purpose. "Get Mad, Stay Mad" would be good for a bumper sticker. And I'm getting another idea: "Get Woke, Stay Woke."
Okay, enough of all that.

Regarding the Facebook posts, when I'm on the fence about whether something I want to do could hurt me or someone else, I try not to ask the question, "Will something bad happen?" since I can usually convince myself that nothing bad is likely to happen.  I turn the question around, and say, "Is this likely to help the situation?"  I find I do a better job of staying out of trouble that way.  :)o you think your Facebook posts are likely to help your legal situation? (I am asking a rhetorical question from Internet land, safely out of arms reach   ).

What the Facebook post did, in a weird way, was enable me to withstand more of the legal crap being thrown my way. The outpouring of support, including a woman I really don't know, buying me a wheelbarrow was quite restorative.
I changed the visibility to "only me," however because I no longer need anyone to view it. Not sure why I posted--probably to vent--but the amount of people who wrote, asking if they could get me a gift card, buy me a wheelbarrow, food was incredible. I wrote a post the next day thanking everyone and acknowledging that the level of support enabled me to take a deep breath, buckle down, and realize that I will be on the other side of all this eventually.

You've got a lot of facts on your side.  You certainly sound like the reasonable one to me.  Keep that persona!

Thanks, WW. Some people think I'm histrionic (a label I don't agree with), so thanks for validating how I see myself.

And, sorry to hear about the broken wheelbarrow.  Is it repairable?  I have a pretty cheap wheelbarrow that I wore out, then had to rebuild with some plywood in between the "bowl" and the wood handles.

WW

See above. A lovely woman bought a wheelbarrow and had me pick it up for a local hardware store. It's in 3 pieces, so my son will be over in an hour or so to put it together. And, no, the broken wheelbarrow is not repairable. It's poly, and the holes the bolts go through shredded, so it would be duct taped or something. I did find another wheelbarrow buried in hay here at the house. I will see if the tire from the broken wheelbarrow will fit this other one. Or rather I will ask my son to do that. All this bolting requires power tools--not my forte.
I truly truly want this divorce to be settled so I can move on, return to the woman I once was before I ever got involved with my STBX and his family.
TMD

[Radcliff]

Let's hear it for wheelbarrow restoration!  (Both restorative wheelbarrows, and restored wheelbarrows with new wheels  )
         

It's nice to hear stories like that.  I was having a bad day a couple of weeks ago, and a stranger made a kind gesture that meant more than he could have known.  Kind of restores your faith in humanity a bit.

Keep us posted!

WW