How to not JADE when the pwBPD asks you to?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I can't seem to find the answer to this on the site, but maybe I have missed it somewhere. I'm under a lot of stress lately and it's making me foggy. A problem that I've realized I run into is slipping into the habit of JADEing during a specific type of argument that I have with my uBPD friend. The circumstances are always different, so I've found it difficult to lay the right boundary, because the accusation is never that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, it's that I'm deliberately doing it to hurt him. He claims he doesn't want me to change what I'm doing (such as going out with other male friends), rather that he perceives that I am doing it to purposely hurt him. I try to validate, but that leads to him saying something like "yes, of course I'm upset! why are you doing this/it seems like you're deliberately trying to hurt me and then rub it in my face but I just don't understand why." Okay, the problem is that once he gets escalated (this particular fight always goes really quickly, jealousy is his hottest trigger) and he will start bombarding me with questions that basically ask me to JADE, he wants me to explain and answer the questions, stuff to the effect of "when did you make this plan?" or "how do you know this person?"- and if I don't, he gets even more upset that I'm not answering his questions and takes it as proof that I'm lying. I try to validate and ignore the questions, but he just gets incredibly angry that I don't answer the questions. Is that what I'm supposed to do? Ignore the questions? It's a trap and I can't figure out how to get around it. It makes it difficult to disengage, to avoid JADEing and to validate effectively. Thank you.

[CautiousHope]

I can't seem to find the answer to this on the site, but maybe I have missed it somewhere. I'm under a lot of stress lately and it's making me foggy. A problem that I've realized I run into is slipping into the habit of JADEing during a specific type of argument that I have with my uBPD friend. The circumstances are always different, so I've found it difficult to lay the right boundary, because the accusation is never that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing, it's that I'm deliberately doing it to hurt him. He claims he doesn't want me to change what I'm doing (such as going out with other male friends), rather that he perceives that I am doing it to purposely hurt him. I try to validate, but that leads to him saying something like "yes, of course I'm upset! why are you doing this/it seems like you're deliberately trying to hurt me and then rub it in my face but I just don't understand why." Okay, the problem is that once he gets escalated (this particular fight always goes really quickly, jealousy is his hottest trigger) and he will start bombarding me with questions that basically ask me to JADE, he wants me to explain and answer the questions, stuff to the effect of "when did you make this plan?" or "how do you know this person?"- and if I don't, he gets even more upset that I'm not answering his questions and takes it as proof that I'm lying. I try to validate and ignore the questions, but he just gets incredibly angry that I don't answer the questions. Is that what I'm supposed to do? Ignore the questions? It's a trap and I can't figure out how to get around it. It makes it difficult to disengage, to avoid JADEing and to validate effectively. Thank you.

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[once removed]

validation, avoiding validating the invalid, and not being invalidating, this stuff is not always black and white.

for example, if you respond "i am not doing this in order to hurt you", its only validating the invalid if you get sucked into a circular argument about why you are/arent doing it to hurt him.

my rule of thumb is its okay to explain my side of things once, maybe twice, and that anything beyond that is circular argument territory.

thats also different than sitting down for an interrogation, which i wouldnt advise, and sometimes when you explain your side of things, its an invitation for twenty questions. its a tricky balance.

can you give us examples of what he perceives as "deliberately hurting" him? if i had to guess, a lot of the time its about jealousy and getting your attention. there are probably more productive ways to give that attention than reward it by answering the questions, in that case. think in terms of positive reinforcement and not rewarding bad behavior: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=103822.0

[CautiousHope]

Yes, I think in this particular type of situation, I have to be very careful not to JADE at all because it escalates very quickly. He is extremely and inappropriately jealous. We are just close friends, but he is possessive and triggered by my spending time with any other man or other men paying me attention, but he will deny that is the cause and come up with elaborate ways to justify his feelings because he knows his jealousy is inappropriate. I think that he gets embarrassed that he is jealous because he knows that I don't like jealousy and so he tries very hard to rapidly turn it on me.

I got a ride with a male friend at the last minute to a family oriented social gathering. He accused me of hiding this plan from him, which evolved into me "getting all dolled up to spend Saturday night with a guy who wants to be with me" in his version of reality, because he is terrified I'm going to get into a relationship and "forget" him, so he believes I am lying and treating him like a "fool." (This is the worst fight we've ever had, this one made me so mad, I responded very badly.) He says he's not mad about the ride, he's mad that I am purposely messing with his head and sneaking around.

We are both artists and use social media to share our art. A guy that he works with messaged me once to talk about art and my friend absolutely lost it, saying that I am deliberately trying to get close to the guys he works with and he fears he is going to "lose me" to someone he's going to have to look in the eye every day. He's very careful to say that the problem isn't me talking to the friend, it's that I'm purposely talking to and "flirting" with people that he will have to face after I choose them over him (in a nutshell.)

A male friend invited me to go for a hike in my favorite park - as friends - and my pwBPD blew his top. Not because I'm not fully entitled to date, but because I won't "admit" it's a date and (again) I am sneaking around hiding this from him and playing games with his head by not telling him the "truth" that I am dating which means that I am messing with him on purpose and he feels that I'm treating him like he's stupid if I say it's not a date.

I think that illustrates the pattern pretty well. Inappropriate jealousy stemming from abandonment fear which he twists to accuse me of hiding a secret love life from him, which I'm "allowed" to have (LOL) but he doesn't like being treated like he's "stupid." He will dive straight into interrogation and then claim he's " not even allowed to ask questions." You definitely nailed it on the jealousy and attention getting, but I don't understand how to wiggle out of these. I think that I do a good job of positive reinforcement for the most part, I've had a lot of luck in changing our relationship in a healthy way and he has adapted really well, but this one is tough because he really has finagled it in a way that makes it complicated. If I answer his questions, I am JADEing. If I don't, I'm obviously evading them because I have something to hide which validates his belief that I am hiding things. If I validate his feelings, but then continue doing the thing that I'm doing, it tells him that I really am doing this thing intentionally to hurt him. If I get into the argument, I give him the attention he wants. I find that most of our problems I can handle, but this one is a mess.

[once removed]

you can set a hard limit around these discussions if theyre inappropriate or out of line.

he wont like it, but theres not a lot of middle ground. alternatively, you can stand on trial for crimes you didnt commit, or you can actually hide things from him, or you can remain single and go out of your way to avoid male friends entirely.

which feels true to you and your values? is there any other option?

[pearlsw]

Hi CautiousHope and once removed,

I thank you for this discussion! I deal with jealousy at times too. It is a real drag. This is the first time I've had a long term relationship with a jealous person and this is an awful element of it. Sigh.

I agree with once removed, these situations can vary, but saying something once or twice is about all that is worth it. Other than that and it is clear you are not being listened to, respected, and you are you dealing with a dynamic you can't keep feeding. I have said many times I don't want to be with a jealous person, but... .it's hard. It is so built in to some people. You have to do what is right for you and protect yourself against this kind of thing at all costs!

with compassion, pearl.

[CautiousHope]

Thank you, yes, I think that being more firm in my limits is the right choice here. I think that I will validate his feelings but assert my right to my autonomy and my right to make decisions that are good for me. If he feels that I'm being dishonest, he's free to act on that by choosing not to associate with me or however he wants to deal with it in a way that doesn't affect me. I think that I will try harder to disengage from these particular conversations early on.

[CautiousHope]

I have said many times I don't want to be with a jealous person, but... .it's hard. It is so built in to some people. You have to do what is right for you and protect yourself against this kind of thing at all costs!

I feel very strongly about jealousy and possessiveness, so I get a little bit irritated with myself that I allow him to push this issue so far with me. I know that it's because I know he's sincerely terrified and hurting, but at the same time I am giving up a piece of myself by letting him push it, and I'm really not okay with that.

[pearlsw]

I agree! Extreme jealousy is just so horrible to deal with. In my case, here I am so far away, and his first question is "do you have a room alone?"... .that before a ton of other questions one might ask about my trip. I know what he is implying by this, what his focus is... .

I hear ya! I wish I hadn't underestimated what this was going to be. I just had never dealt with it, so I didn't take it as seriously as I should have, or... .I just didn't have a strategy. I tried my best to counter it, but... .some people just have this so ingrained in them... .they make it impossible to be with them... .

[CautiousHope]

The long distance really seems to amplify it. My therapist has also pointed that out, which I know is true, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation which is that his jealousy is out of control. Sometimes I feel like I made a mistake very early in our relationship by telling him that I don't tolerate jealousy - because here I am, for some reason, tolerating this jealousy because he has managed to manipulate it in such a way that makes it a little harder to work around. It would be so much easier to address if he were straightforward in admitting that he's trying to stop me from doing these things, but he's so adamant that he's not.

[once removed]

because here I am, for some reason, tolerating this jealousy

identifying the reason can go a very long way.

my ex was possessive and jealous herself. these are generally unattractive qualities to me, and also make me feel like my independence and autonomy are threatened, make me feel smothered.

on the other hand, id never been in that position before in a relationship. there was something comforting and safe about being in it, because (to over simplify) i was always the insecure one in my previous relationships. likewise, there was something comforting and safe about constantly defending myself and asserting my independence with someone who fundamentally could not and would not respect it. as a result i felt a certain false strength, as well as safety, and for once i felt "one up" so to speak. if i believed in my independence and autonomy, i wasnt really living it.

your reasons likely differ from mine, but im illustrating that there is often a reason we find ourselves in these dynamics even when they drive us crazy. theres a certain draw.

[CautiousHope]

I have been thinking on that and I believe you're right in that it is important. I am separated right now, but my husband was a jealous guy when we met and I nipped that in the bud early on, so I know that is something I am able to assert and be in control of under "normal" circumstances. I think that what is happening here is that when he twists it to the guilt angle, when my pwBPD accuses me of being manipulative or deliberately cruel, that is when the need to defend or prove myself comes up. It is so far from true about me that it's a particularly difficult accusation to swallow. I struggle with being falsely accused or blamed for things that aren't my fault or that aren't true, because of the way that I grew up, so I think he has sort of identified that as a weakness in me where he can get a little leeway with this since other angles haven't worked. And... .well, it worked. I do get defensive and I do tolerate it, because I don't want him to really believe that I would do something deliberately hurtful to another person because that is so against my character.

[CautiousHope]

I'm trying to mentally prepare for the next incident, but I'm struggling to come up with what I would say since it's so twisted up.

[once removed]

I think that what is happening here is that when he twists it to the guilt angle, when my pwBPD accuses me of being manipulative or deliberately cruel, that is when the need to defend or prove myself comes up. It is so far from true about me that it's a particularly difficult accusation to swallow. I struggle with being falsely accused or blamed for things that aren't my fault or that aren't true, because of the way that I grew up, so I think he has sort of identified that as a weakness in me where he can get a little leeway with this since other angles haven't worked. And... .well, it worked. I do get defensive and I do tolerate it, because I don't want him to really believe that I would do something deliberately hurtful to another person because that is so against my character.

bingo!

its probably one of the hardest times to avoid JADEing and/or validating the invalid, especially when its someone close to us. if i, or say a random person on the street threw accusations at you like that, it likely would not have the same effect. it helps, at times, to remember that its a distorted perspective in the first place, and, while it may or may not be intentional, hes driven by that need for validation and your attention, and is doing what works. have you brought this up with your therapist?

I'm trying to mentally prepare for the next incident, but I'm struggling to come up with what I would say since it's so twisted up.

you can do that. you can also start a conversation before it happens again. both approaches have pros and cons. the long and short of it, i think, would be to conclude by setting a limit on these conversations. how hard that limit is depends on you. do you let it come up, try to calm it down, and bow out when things heat up/get circular? or do you simply refuse to discuss these things and no longer engage?

SET and DEARMAN can work well for a before hand conversation if thats what you choose. i would expect a ramping of and extinction burst regardless.

[CautiousHope]

bingo!

its probably one of the hardest times to avoid JADEing and/or validating the invalid, especially when its someone close to us. if i, or say a random person on the street threw accusations at you like that, it likely would not have the same effect. it helps, at times, to remember that its a distorted perspective in the first place, and, while it may or may not be intentional, hes driven by that need for validation and your attention, and is doing what works. have you brought this up with your therapist?

you can do that. you can also start a conversation before it happens again. both approaches have pros and cons. the long and short of it, i think, would be to conclude by setting a limit on these conversations. how hard that limit is depends on you. do you let it come up, try to calm it down, and bow out when things heat up/get circular? or do you simply refuse to discuss these things and no longer engage?

SET and DEARMAN can work well for a before hand conversation if thats what you choose. i would expect a ramping of and extinction burst regardless.

I haven't brought this up with my therapist, no. I actually see a therapist for PTSD and right now our priority is getting me out of my own triggered state. I'm also going through a traumatic separation from my spouse and a bad financial situation, so my relationship with the BPD friend is such a low priority that it doesn't come up often in therapy. It's just a pain in the butt when I am dealing with all of these things and he gets antsy and the beast comes out at the worst possible time (I'm sure everyone here knows.) It's so hard not to just reply by telling him to shove it.  

I am not mentally prepared for the extinction burst yet, hopefully when my daily life stress is a bit lessened I can steel myself for that, but I will try to make it a habit to lean into SET and DEARMAN more often until I'm ready to really put my foot down. Thanks for the input and the advice, even though I feel like I know a lot of this already, having someone bounce the perspective back makes it a lot clearer. I appreciate it.

[CautiousHope]

"Oops" post. I am still learning to navigate the site buttons.