Should I tell my children I fear their mother is ill?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My wife and I have filled for Divorce. We were actually Divorced 12 years ago so now:

I have 6 children, my wife is BPD I have no doubt!

She is not mean to our kids at all and she's very covert with how she treats me.

She is very controlling for sure and the kids are not totally clueless that she has issues but 4 of them are very young (12 and under.)

My 18 year old is ready for college and will not speak with me.

Her mother is extremely co-dependent on this child and the child refers to her mother as her "Best Friend"

My 15 year old is very confused I am certain.

My question is this:

Should I tell my children I fear their mother is ill?

If so how would it be most appropriately verbalized?

[Texas22]

My wife and I have filled for Divorce. We were actually Divorced 12 years ago so now:

I have 6 children, my wife is BPD I have no doubt!

She is not mean to our kids at all and she's very covert with how she treats me.

She is very controlling for sure and the kids are not totally clueless that she has issues but 4 of them are very young (12 and under.)

My 18 year old is ready for college and will not speak with me.

Her mother is extremely co-dependent on this child and the child refers to her mother as her "Best Friend"

My 15 year old is very confused I am certain.

My question is this:

Should I tell my children I fear their mother is ill?

If so how would it be most appropriately verbalized?

[Notwendy]

Do they ask you about their mother's behaviors?

I say this because- as a mature for my age teen,  with a BPD mother- I did ask but was given no information. To be fair, there wasn't much information on BPD at the time but my mother had a psychiatric medical history and that could have been explained to me.  I knew something was wrong with her.  My mother's behaviors were obvious- and I was old enough, and had the capacity to understand what mental illness is, and wanted to know. In this case I think it would have been better to tell me instead of pretending all was OK with her.

However, if the parent is behaving nicely to the kids and isn't overtly unstable in front of them, and they are not asking about her, you may be stepping into triangulation with them by bringing it up. Your situation, being covert,  is difficult, especially with the enmeshed 18 year old.

To avoid triangulation, I would suggest leaving this discussion to a trained therapist. Personally, I think counseling for all members of a family is a good idea when there is a divorce. The stress of the divorce is enough reason to have the kids in therapy. Before doing anything though, I would consult your lawyer about the logistics of this. I don't know if seeking mental health can be used as negative evidence about a parent.

My own opinion is that children should be answered honestly - and at their developmental level- should they ask questions, but with sensitivity to the possibility of triangulation, especially during a divorce.

The 18 year old is going to have to face her own issues with enmeshment at some point. I am sorry she won't speak to you. This will be a change for both her and her mother. You can open the door to a relationship by sending her mail at college ( not e mail- she can delete it or just forward it to her mother). Keep it light. Send her a "good luck on exams" card with a Starbucks or school bookstore gift card in it . Eventually, ask her to meet you for lunch or dinner and visit her if she will allow it ( and not if she says no) . Her mother can say whatever she does but if you continue being a supportive Dad without demands on her, she may notice the discrepancy. It may be best to not discuss her mother's issues with her. Also know, that should she have issues with separation ,most colleges have good student health counseling.

One of the dangers of discussing your wife with enmeshed children and any other enmeshed family members is that they will report anything you say to them to their mother. I tried over the years to discuss my mother with my enmeshed father. Everything I said to him was reported back to her. Study the drama triangle. If you say something about mother to an enmeshed family member, they will report it to her and step in as her rescuer. It can then backfire. This is one reason such a discussion might be better handled by a professional.

[Panda39]

Hi Texas22,

I wanted to share an article about emotional incest/parentification (the type of thing Notwendy was talking about)... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

My significant other's oldest daughter was also parentified. I agree with Notwendy's approach with your older daughter.  Do not discuss anything that you don't want getting back to her mother... .keep it light and not too personal.  It makes sense to me to approach her as she separates from her mother and becomes more independent.

Rather than tell the kids their mom is mentally ill you might want to just talk to them about their feelings and validate their feelings. You don't have to say mom's BPD to talk with your kids, you can talk about the behaviors your kids are seeing and are confused about. Keep these conversations between you, don't run back to their mother with things the kids have told you because because your angry about something you've been told, there will likely be payback for them.  Be that person that they can talk to and trust, be that household that is stable and consistent they will need that.

Below is a link to this boards information on co-parenting with a BPD parent all good information but you might want to pay particular attention to Lesson 5 "Raising Resilient Kids" there you will find information on validation.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.0

I'm glad you've found us there is a lot of great information, tools and support available to you here.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

Most parents with BPD engage in parental alienation to some degree. Your D18 not talking to you is likely a product of alienation.

Your ex may not be "mean" to the kids in the obvious way, but if she is poisoning them against their dad or oversharing adult information or expecting them to fulfill any kind of spousal relationship role, she is abusing them in a different way. Alienation is like an odorless gas.

The communication and relationship skills to counter parental alienation are not intuitive and must be learned.

Dr. Craig Childress has a good article about jujitsu parenting, and there are other books like Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids by Bill Eddy. I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms.

At the heart of all strategies to help your kids is emotional validation of their feelings. They are likely starved for genuine intimacy and may be emotionally isolated by the dysfunctional family dynamic. Validation is the skill to creation genuine emotional connection.

Validation is to the heart what water is to the body.

People with BPD have above average needs for validation, and will try to get those needs met from the kids instead of the natural order of things, which is for the parent to validate the kids.

By telling the kids that their mom is ill, your words will get back to mom, she will recognize them as an attack, and she will pull the kids in closer and intensify the campaign to unite them against you.

A better way to help your kids is to beef up your parenting skills and learn about alienation. You can't win a pissing match with a skunk   so work on your own strengths as a dad, which is to emotionally connect with the kids and help them use that emotional IQ to test reality.

Let them come to their own conclusions that mom is ill. They may surprise you by asking, but even if they discover she has BPD, they still need emotional validation to help them heal.

[kells76]

Hi Texas22;

You've gotten a lot of great feedback so far, and I don't think I can do better than to encourage you to think about it!

One additional point I did think of, though, is -- I wonder if some of your "confused" kids are having the experience that "everything is always about Mom". You mentioned that it's not that she's outright mean to the kids, per se, but with folks who have BPD behaviors, the "meanness" might be tacit, or even not consciously intended.

The other day I did SD12's hair in a particular way, and it was still like that when we dropped the kids off at Mom's house. The first thing Mom said about it when she saw it was, "I ALWAYS used to have MY hair like that when I was your age!" On the one hand, to be fair, Mom may have been trying to relate. But on the other hand, it came off as "Let me make this situation about Me, instead of You".

Is some stuff like that happening with your kids and their mom?

I remember one of the members here had an adolescent daughter. One day, the daughter came up to Mom and asked, "Is Dad a psychopath?" Mom could have indulged in her own sense of hurt and anger and said "You bet he is! You're so right. Let me tell you about all the disordered things he's done."

What she did instead was validation gold. She said to her daughter, "Why do you ask, honey?"

So, what the mom did there was -- instead of making the situation all about either Dad and how ill he was (which would have felt like the same old, same old, everything's always about Dad), or about herself and how hurt she was, she was able to focus on her daughter and how her daughter felt. That's a big piece of what kids with a BPD or uBPD parent aren't getting -- that focus on them and their own experience, not on Mom and her illness or Dad and his psychopathy.

To continue the above example, if the daughter had continued by saying something like "Well, he just always talks about himself" or "He's always badmouthing Grandma" or whatever, the next step could be Mom saying "How do you feel when he does that?" or "What's it like for you to hear that?"

Again, bringing the focus back to the kid and how she feels -- that's key. Lay that groundwork now, and then later, down the road, when they're adults, you may be able to have a foundation to work from to talk about Mom's illness. It's a long game, and you may want to get to Z right away, but work on that A through Y first and get that solid.

I really hope this is helpful food for thought. Let us know if you have more questions about these approaches.

Hang in there;

kells76

[Texas22]

Wow that was all good stuff the 3 replies I've gotten so far are very comforting. I been with this woman for over 20 years and this last break up was just so confusing I knew there had to be more to it.

Thanks Texas22

[Texas22]

Hi Texas22;

You've gotten a lot of great feedback so far, and I don't think I can do better than to encourage you to think about it!

One additional point I did think of, though, is -- I wonder if some of your "confused" kids are having the experience that "everything is always about Mom". You mentioned that it's not that she's outright mean to the kids, per se, but with folks who have BPD behaviors, the "meanness" might be tacit, or even not consciously intended.

The other day I did SD12's hair in a particular way, and it was still like that when we dropped the kids off at Mom's house. The first thing Mom said about it when she saw it was, "I ALWAYS used to have MY hair like that when I was your age!" On the one hand, to be fair, Mom may have been trying to relate. But on the other hand, it came off as "Let me make this situation about Me, instead of You".

Is some stuff like that happening with your kids and their mom?

I remember one of the members here had an adolescent daughter. One day, the daughter came up to Mom and asked, "Is Dad a psychopath?" Mom could have indulged in her own sense of hurt and anger and said "You bet he is! You're so right. Let me tell you about all the disordered things he's done."

What she did instead was validation gold. She said to her daughter, "Why do you ask, honey?"

So, what the mom did there was -- instead of making the situation all about either Dad and how ill he was (which would have felt like the same old, same old, everything's always about Dad), or about herself and how hurt she was, she was able to focus on her daughter and how her daughter felt. That's a big piece of what kids with a BPD or uBPD parent aren't getting -- that focus on them and their own experience, not on Mom and her illness or Dad and his psychopathy.

To continue the above example, if the daughter had continued by saying something like "Well, he just always talks about himself" or "He's always badmouthing Grandma" or whatever, the next step could be Mom saying "How do you feel when he does that?" or "What's it like for you to hear that?"

Again, bringing the focus back to the kid and how she feels -- that's key. Lay that groundwork now, and then later, down the road, when they're adults, you may be able to have a foundation to work from to talk about Mom's illness. It's a long game, and you may want to get to Z right away, but work on that A through Y first and get that solid.

I really hope this is helpful food for thought. Let us know if you have more questions about these approaches.

Hang in there;

kells76

Funny my wife always says I make everything about myself but from what I read BP's often say you are what they are etc? She's jelous people like me and she hated her own upbringing so much I dare not discus mine with the kids because according to her my childhood was bad also and I should hate my parents as she does hers?

[Texas22]

I'm new to this and it has been a mind blowing discovery when I read what described my wife so well and to the tee!

I must admit it's very confusing and quite depressing trying to get my arms around all of this while I watch the life we built totally melt down in front of my eyes. I see my kids drowning in the wreckage!

Thanks y'all!

[kells76]

my wife always says I make everything about myself but from what I read BP's often say you are what they are etc

Yup, that could be happening. You've probably heard this before, but it's called projection, and (from what I recall) it's a way that insecure people deal with internal negative emotions. "I feel like nobody likes me, but that's too hard of a feeling to have, so I will put it outside of me. You must be the one that nobody likes!"

This is a little off topic, but just for future reference, a good way to depersonalize the negativity that you will (inevitably) receive from your wife is to reverse the pronouns.

For example, let's say that you guys are emailing about parenting time (or whatever). She says "Blah, blah, blah, you're so selfish, the kids don't really like you, you're so mean to make them spend time with you, you're abusing them, you're a failure as a dad, I'll pick the kids up at 4pm, blah, blah, blah"

You can have some insight into how she's feeling by reversing the pronouns: "I'm a really selfish person. I'm afraid the kids don't really like me. I feel like I have to force them to spend time with me. I might be an emotionally abusive person. I feel like I'm a failure as a mom."

All you have to engage with is "OK, 4pm sounds good."

This could be a way for you to depersonalize her attacks, deescalate the situation by not engaging with her vitriol, and focus on what really matters, which is your kids.

Lots of new skills coming your way. You can think about which ones would help you and your kids in your situation. I'm really sorry it's so hard right now, and the hard times might last a while, but it's not the end of the story, I promise.

kells76

[Panda39]

Are your kids getting any Therapy at all?  That can also be helpful in terms of having someone outside the situation that they can work things through with.  (Someone who is familiar with BPD and can maintain their own boundaries)

My SO's uBPDxw actually crashed her daughter's therapy session and made it about her 

Therapy for yourself might not be a bad idea either.  My SO found it really helpful to talk things through with a therapist when he was in the thick of things (during his divorce was the worst!)

I'm new to this and it has been a mind blowing discovery when I read what described my wife so well and to the tee!

I must admit it's very confusing and quite depressing trying to get my arms around all of this while I watch the life we built totally melt down in front of my eyes. I see my kids drowning in the wreckage!

It is amazing how similar our stories can be, it's like folks with BPD work from the same playbook.  We are throwing a lot of information at you, it is a learning curve so take your time.  You'll need to absorb things and try things with your kids... .trial and error.  What we really want to get across is that there are strategies, tools and support here for you as you go on your journey.  All we can do is the best we can with what we know.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

I found this site in the first month or two after our separation in late 2005 — and I'm still learning or refreshing my memory.  This is all a process, but in a positive direction.  Our coping skills weren't very good at first, often just being passive, compliant, acquiescing and appeasing.  Now we have the opportunity to educate ourselves, learn communication skills, be more observant and more capable.  You've just gotten some excellent posts on communication approaches.

One change you'll note by gaining education on these matters is that you can make more informed and more confident decisions, responses and observations.  Your boundaries will become better and more effective.  I had a hard time getting it drilled into my head what effective boundaries are.  I thought they were, "You must do ___ or you must not do ___."  Wrong, in most cases we really can't force our spouse or ex to change.  It's almost like boundaries are to them as a waving red cloth is to a bull, it must be attacked, gored, trampled.

A key insight I eventually understood was that the boundary is for us, not the others who are more inclined to trample them.  So the boundary is on us to maintain, as in, "If you do ___ or do not do ___ then I will do ____."  See the difference?  We take charge of the boundary.  The others can ignore it or not but their actions will guide how we apply our boundary.

[Texas22]

Thanks again everyone each of your comments are very helpful! 

Yes my kids are in Therapy that of course my wife has held me at distance from but this is an exceptionally good therapist and she reached out to me after an altercation with the wifey.

Long story short my wife made a list of demands and NO but anyways I met with this lady and addressed all of the concerns with the children. When that was over a little over 45 minutes I pulled a book out of my pocket (Stop walking on egg shells) and asked her what she knew about that. She told me a lot!


I told her the book said I am not to diagnose the wife but after 20 years of dealing with her ism's the book was spot on!

 She said that she was not diagnosing her either but referenced 3 more books for me all on BPD... .

I'm waiting for Splitting in the mail.

I have this fantasy that we can put this all back together if she can just admit her faults and get some help but I've read enough to understand it is just that a fantasy.

Some have recommended couples counselling as a solution but she will just blame me more I'm afraid.