How to support what SD10 might actually want?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So the kids' mom has been sharing drama with DH about a video DH's (potentially) uBPD Sis posted accusing DH of abusing Sis. Mom brought this up after scheduling more time for the kids to be with DH. So I think "abuse" is on Mom's radar again.

She mentioned to DH that she sees SD10 doing "dance teacher" behaviors when SD10 plays with younger kids -- ie physically moving their bodies around/in their personal space. Mom does not think that is a good idea.

Mom told DH she would like SD10 to do another activity, and DH was supportive, because SD10 does like this other activity, too. I also know & see that SD10 likes this other activity & does well at it.

I'm concerned because:

I just set up dance parent/teacher conferences for me, Mom, & dance teacher. Mom said "Sounds good!" & didn't bring up her concern with me. Do I email Mom and say "Keep me posted if there's anything we should discuss at conference"? Or just let it go, but go in forearmed with knowledge that Mom wants SD10 to be done?

Do I bring up with Mom that Hey, if you're concerned about SD10 in others' personal space, let's talk with her about her behavior? Do I bring up something like "Let me know how you plan to parent SD10 through this so I can be supportive"? (probably that would be triggering... .)

Do I bypass Mom and just work with SD10 about how not everything that all our teachers do is ok for kids to do? Even at school, teachers can make you write an apology letter, but you can't make your friends do that, for example.

I'm concerned that Mom's revived abuse fear is impacting her decision making. I bet she feels uncomfortable with how in dance, teachers do touch and move kids' bodies. I get it -- but switching activities doesn't really seem to address the issue face-on.

I'm also concerned (and this is a lot of my stuff) that once again Mom is subtly not supporting the kids in an activity that DH or I do. SD12 was in an activity that DH did but decided she didn't like the competitive aspect. Which on the one hand is fine, but on the other hand I wonder how much subtle pressure she was feeling at Mom's to not like this thing that DH did.

Dance has been my "thing" for a long time. Mom often emphasizes how when Mom was young she was just "too active" for dance. So it's not Mom's thing or Mom's world, but is very much mine. SD10 seems to love being on stage, talks about wanting to perform more, liking dancing with her friends, etc. We do connect through dance which has been pretty special. I worry that Mom feels threatened by this and is looking for a reason (SD10 in other kids physical space when playing) to pull her out.

My old fear/feeling is that once Mom has decided something, there's nothing I can do to stop her. I feel like just hearing that Mom has "concerns" is a big signal that SD10 is done. I'm afraid that facing this head on and trying to problem-solve with Mom to help SD10 stay would just solidify Mom's resolve to pull her out. Is this one of those times when I just step back and let the kids experience what their mom is like? Or do I try to work with Mom on her concerns? Which she hasn't directly told me... .

[kells76]

So the kids' mom has been sharing drama with DH about a video DH's (potentially) uBPD Sis posted accusing DH of abusing Sis. Mom brought this up after scheduling more time for the kids to be with DH. So I think "abuse" is on Mom's radar again.

She mentioned to DH that she sees SD10 doing "dance teacher" behaviors when SD10 plays with younger kids -- ie physically moving their bodies around/in their personal space. Mom does not think that is a good idea.

Mom told DH she would like SD10 to do another activity, and DH was supportive, because SD10 does like this other activity, too. I also know & see that SD10 likes this other activity & does well at it.

I'm concerned because:

I just set up dance parent/teacher conferences for me, Mom, & dance teacher. Mom said "Sounds good!" & didn't bring up her concern with me. Do I email Mom and say "Keep me posted if there's anything we should discuss at conference"? Or just let it go, but go in forearmed with knowledge that Mom wants SD10 to be done?

Do I bring up with Mom that Hey, if you're concerned about SD10 in others' personal space, let's talk with her about her behavior? Do I bring up something like "Let me know how you plan to parent SD10 through this so I can be supportive"? (probably that would be triggering... .)

Do I bypass Mom and just work with SD10 about how not everything that all our teachers do is ok for kids to do? Even at school, teachers can make you write an apology letter, but you can't make your friends do that, for example.

I'm concerned that Mom's revived abuse fear is impacting her decision making. I bet she feels uncomfortable with how in dance, teachers do touch and move kids' bodies. I get it -- but switching activities doesn't really seem to address the issue face-on.

I'm also concerned (and this is a lot of my stuff) that once again Mom is subtly not supporting the kids in an activity that DH or I do. SD12 was in an activity that DH did but decided she didn't like the competitive aspect. Which on the one hand is fine, but on the other hand I wonder how much subtle pressure she was feeling at Mom's to not like this thing that DH did.

Dance has been my "thing" for a long time. Mom often emphasizes how when Mom was young she was just "too active" for dance. So it's not Mom's thing or Mom's world, but is very much mine. SD10 seems to love being on stage, talks about wanting to perform more, liking dancing with her friends, etc. We do connect through dance which has been pretty special. I worry that Mom feels threatened by this and is looking for a reason (SD10 in other kids physical space when playing) to pull her out.

My old fear/feeling is that once Mom has decided something, there's nothing I can do to stop her. I feel like just hearing that Mom has "concerns" is a big signal that SD10 is done. I'm afraid that facing this head on and trying to problem-solve with Mom to help SD10 stay would just solidify Mom's resolve to pull her out. Is this one of those times when I just step back and let the kids experience what their mom is like? Or do I try to work with Mom on her concerns? Which she hasn't directly told me... .

[livednlearned]

Hi kells76,

This does sound like some kind of dysregulation, and is probably related to the DH abuse drama, like you suggest.

For that reason, if it were me, I would take a backseat and let the dance thing go for now. The other stuff seems like a powder keg so going grey rock may be a better bet for helping people get through this intact.

It's like a big ocean swell, a wave that's larger than the rest. You can still go down to the beach, but maybe you take a step back when you see a big one coming, and just let it pass.

You are probably right that mom will pull SD10 from the class for reasons she may not even understand. If her reasoning is being driven by a BPD dysregulation, maybe she will ride things out faster if she has nothing else hitting her radar.

Sometimes this stuff is all about timing 

[kells76]

You know what, I think you might be right that she's dysregulating. So the other thing going on is that her husband is starting online grad school. The last time she was married to someone (DH... .) who started grad school, she "accidentally" got pregnant with SD12. I.e., I wonder if "spouse paying a lot of attention to something else" = "abandonment" and then big attempts to regain attention.

So she's got that going on, plus "abuse" fears from DH's sister's accusations. Yeah, this is going to be "fun".

We had the conference the other day and she brought Stepdad along (who hasn't been involved in SD10's activity at all). Weird. Whatever. Mom was in "SD10 told me STRONGLY that she does NOT want to do dance over the summer" mode. Again, whatever. We talked about, Hey, maybe she could try a dance camp that has different types of activities, but then Mom was SURE they would be out of town for part of it, too bad. I looked at the calendar, they will be here. Third time, Whatever. Yeah, Mom is having a hard time right now. I left it at "OK, sounds like Other Activity is priority #1 -- let me know what you find for her to do, and if you don't find anything, then we can look at Dance Activity".

I think my intuition that bringing up these issues with Mom would cause her to push back was right, even though I didn't know why. But now it's making more sense; she's living more in another reality right now than usual. Sigh. Oh, and now I'm wondering if she didn't get the amount of validation/attention that she was seeking from the "art show". Oh, AND apparently she's spreading rumors that the MC that DH and I see (long story short, MC was also the MC for DH & Mom back in the day, it's a small community) told them to get divorced. Didn't go down like that, but if Mom is dysregulating about abuse, abandonment, and validation, then maybe she's seeking a new target of blame for why she feels this way. Target was DH for a long time, but now Stepdad could be seen as "abandoning" for doing grad school, but she can't have him be the target, because then he's "all bad", so it MUST be... .MC!

AAAUUUGGGHHH... .this might be a loonnnggg summer.

[livednlearned]

I left it at "OK, sounds like Other Activity is priority #1 -- let me know what you find for her to do, and if you don't find anything, then we can look at Dance Activity".

You have good instincts

If you weren't the step, maybe there's other ways. As the step, this seems exactly on target.

I'm wondering if she didn't get the amount of validation/attention that she was seeking

Full stop.

 

Imagine how it must feel to live like that.

AAAUUUGGGHHH... .this might be a loonnnggg summer.

When uBPD21 lived with us for two summers, the best thing to come of it was new ground rules for SO and I. We scheduled times to talk about uBPD ex and uBPD21 and limited how long we talked about those issues. I tend to gnash my teeth about things more than he does, and he tends to stick his head in the sand, so this was a good compromise for us.

We now do this with other stuff.

Sometimes I want to really vent about SO's uBPDx. Very little of it affects me directly, but man. She can really pull some stunts.

I don't want to get SO worked up because her stunts usually involve the girls, and that is emotionally painful for SO, and often he is powerless to do anything.

So I talk to one GF in particular, or I talk to my T.

You may have other ways to take care of yourself because that long summer is going to be a long fall, then a long winter, then a long spring   

And of course, we are always here for you 

The nut gallery 

[Skip]

I want to also say that you have good instincts. We have had many step parents come here that are at war or in competition with biomom. You, rightly so, see the futility in that.

I can really empathize with the sadness you must feel in seeing this bonding experience with SD thwarted because of bio mom's insecurity. Its just sad. Bravo to you for putting "peace" in this little girls life above your own feelings.

This is really hard.

Curious, was the above video posted publicly?    How is your husband dealing with that?

[Panda39]

Yep, been here too.  It really sucks when the kids miss out on something because their BPD parent either can't get it together or can't put their child's needs before their own.   

And yes there are often things going on that are setting them off that we know nothing about, but I will say that you begin to see patterns of behavior after awhile and you seem to be on to that.

I know it isn't the same thing as doing it, but maybe take her to some dance performances, could be another way to bond over your shared interest in dance. (In that vein... .I'll share my guilty pleasure... ."So You Think You Can Dance"... .maybe something you can watch together).

Take Care,
Your non-dancing, uncoordinated, Panda friend with 2 left feet 
Panda39

[kells76]

Thanks for following up on things... .

Skip, I don't know about the video, but I'd guess it is/was publicly viewable (as much as anything on social media is "public". DH's mom (same mom as uBPD sister) is supportive of DH and tired of Sis's stuff (she blames DH's mom & stepdad for a lot of things). According to their mom, some of Sis's friends have stood up to her -- telling her online that this isn't the way to deal with these feelings -- and she has promptly blocked them. So, the video is still out there, as far as I'm aware. We don't have internet at the house, and SD12 is not a big tech fan, so at least at our place I don't think the kids will be exposed to it. Recall that the kids' mom had seen the video... .if anywhere, they would see it/snoop for it at Mom's, but the kids haven't been acting differently with DH, so I think they haven't seen it.

---------------------------------------

As to SD10's summertime activities... .we'd left it at "Mom will look in to having SD10 do a camp for New Non-Dance Activity". I did some, uh, research of my own   , and there is only one camp for this in our area. It's kind of a minimal time investment per day, and while it's not free, it's not going to break the bank. Apparently Mom had told DH that she had of course looked up a camp for SD10, but it cost 3x as much as the one I saw. They are the same camp.

Mom does this thing where if she doesn't want the kids to do something, then "she can't afford it". Which is probably partly true, but when called on the carpet (i.e. we offer to pay for all of something), she often comes up with another reason. [DH pays over guideline support, BTW]

I'm venting a little, I guess. I mean, I can also see the benefit of unstructured time for kids. When SD12 was in an intense activity a few years ago, that was way too much. But it seemed like SD10 did really well with some of the high-structure parts of dance. Even going to New Activity camp for <4 hours a day for one week wouldn't completely overwhelm her vacation with "planned time".

It just kind of bugs me to see Mom not follow through for SD10, and then to make these weird rules for her (this is not new, but there is a new one) -- SD12 is learning X thing and using an app to learn it. SD10 wants to do it too, but apparently the rule is that SD10 has to learn this other thing first, up to some arbitrary level, before she can learn X.

It seems like there's a reversion at Mom's back to some scapegoating of SD10? "No, you can't go to camp, it's too expensive, even though I said you could. No, you can't learn this thing SD12 is doing, until you meet an arbitrary standard that even I can't meet. No, you can't do the free activity that SD12 is doing, even though you want to."

I'm trying to be really affirming of SD10: thanks for helping, this snack you made tastes great, I really appreciate how you put your clothes in the laundry, etc. She does still talk about liking dance and wanting to dance. I checked in with her the other day to see if she wanted to drop in on a class, but she said she felt tired, so I tried to not push it.

For so long, so much of the work DH and I did was with SD12 (and not wrongly so... .?), but now that she's on a more solid foundation, maybe I'm noticing more about SD10 and how it seems like we're back where we were a few years ago, with the "rules" at Mom's favoring SD12 and penalizing SD10.

Not really sure if I have a question in all that. Maybe... .what do kids in that role need the most? With SD12 as the "golden child" with massive anxiety, we did a lot of modeling of apologizing, admitting mistakes, being really gentle, not getting into arguments about whether she was right or not. With SD10 as possibly the scapegoat again... .but also as a kid who I think does better with a lot of structure... .and as a kid who, in a way, emotionally plays it closer to the chest than her sister (at least at this point)... .what does she need the most?

[livednlearned]

It's harder with kids who play it closer to the chest  

Do you feel comfortable making informed guesses about how she is feeling? "I noticed you were quiet at the table tonight. Anything on your mind that you feel comfortable talking about?"

If it's no, then maybe stuff like, "Ok, maybe I was wrong. You had your head down and your shoulders were like this, and that sometimes can mean a person is feeling a bit down."

It seems like kids with BPD parents have a harder time than others identifying and labeling how they feel.

My son's T says that's what he does with S17. Helps him feel safe having feelings with someone he trusts, identify those feelings, find words for them.

Kind of like a sympathetic witness.

So that SD10 doesn't feel like she's emotionally isolated as a the scapegoat.

Also, not sure if this dynamic is in play with your SDs. With my SD21 (uBPD), there is a definite loyalty bind going on with her mom, so her relationship with me is complex. I don't know if it's good boundaries or I'm just a weenie, but after SO and I announced we were getting married, I had a casual conversation with SD21 about how I was a step mom before, and saw myself as a benevolent aunt, who gets to do all the fun stuff, like an awesome older friend  

I want her to feel safe that I am not a replacement for her mom, so that she doesn't feel guilty about having a positive relationship with me.

SD21 is somewhere on the BPD spectrum, so I work harder on boundaries with her. It might not be quite as important with SD10 to carve out your special relationship.

What I would worry about with SD10 is that she has a loyalty bind without any of the perceived benefits (like getting to do things), and an inner narrative that her thoughts and feelings don't matter, even to herself. That calls for some special step parenting jujitsu  

[Turkish]

It sounds like you are walking a line not to trigger their mom and also shielding SD from her anxiety.  I've dealt with sexual abuse anxiety. D6 took ballet for two years and it wasn't an issue then,  but it may be arising given both kids are now in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which is an intimate contact martial art.

You want to shield SD from mom's anxiety and it sounds like you are doing a good job thus far.  Is your SD picking up on any of this anxiety?

[kells76]

Funny you bring up BJJ... .SD12 was in it for a few months, but I think the close intense contact, especially when it was competitive, was too much for her. She got pretty overwhelmed at her first meet. She is getting better at showing her sensitivity, though, and not having it come out as anger/brittleness (like it did for ~4 years), so I guess that was a good thing.

SD12 used to be much more tuned to Mom's (& Stepdad's) anxieties/moods. If Mom was anxious about the kids spending the night with DH, then SD12 "would only want to stay one night, not two". AKA that's what Mom wanted. SD12 is getting... .sassier, I think, with Mom, which is also good for SD12, who (again) spent ~4 years intensely caretaking Mom's & Stepdad's feelings. She is getting way better about being able to hug us a lot even when Mom/Stepdad are there watching.

So she and SD10 kind of flip flopped. SD10 used to be so clingy and huggy at pickup/dropoff, but lately she's been "out the door", maybe trying to rip the bandaid off quickly? I wonder if SD10 is unconsciously picking up that loyalty mantle. It used to be that SD12 would be immensely attuned to Mom's/Stepdad's emotional states, while SD10 would completely check out. Now, it's not that SD12 is checked out, but she seems to care less how Mom is feeling (which, at 12, seems to be getting more developmentally appropriate). SD10 still has her coping mechanism of changing the subject when conversations get serious. It's hard for her to stay "with" topics above about a 4/10 emotionally.

The other SD10 thing that is related is that it seems like it's hard for her to focus on her own. (Or, it's hard for her to focus in the way I think she should focus... .that could be it too... .) I get concerned that jumping around between all these activities, with low continuity and commitment, isn't helping her to build focus skills. Maybe in a way, Mom is/thinks she is helping SD10: i.e., the rule at Mom's is that SD10 can't use this particular app to learn a language that SD12 is learning, until SD10 meets a standard in this other language has learned, a standard set by Mom. But Mom doesn't speak that language and I have no confidence that she will help SD10 at all. I hear nothing from SD10 about any support structure for achieving that standard. So whatever "structure"/continuity at Mom's comes across as arbitrary and impossible, at least in this example.

So, SD10 might be the new "loyal to Mom/less hugs for Dad" kid, at least a little. And, it seems like whatever structure Mom puts in play is impossible, unsupported, and not consistent.

LnL, what you mentioned is sounding potentially accurate:

What I would worry about with SD10 is that she has a loyalty bind without any of the perceived benefits (like getting to do things), and an inner narrative that her thoughts and feelings don't matter, even to herself.

And yeah, Turkish, maybe the way SD10 is picking up on Mom's anxiety is through lack of focus (i.e., if Mom is anxious and irrational, SD10 might reflect that in her scattered-ness).

All this time SD12 seemed "tougher" because the intensity was all out there... .and now it might be time to step it up with SD10, where the impacts from Mom are deeper inside?

[Turkish]

Mommy still helps D6 in the bathroom.  I absolutely refuse to.  D knows this and no longer asks me (there were tantrums this past fall when both of them demanded I help).  Yet at the dojo the other day D had to go and mommy followed.  She's got D6 convinced that this is necessary.  It's hard for kids to assert boundaries with that kind of anxiety in adults.

[livednlearned]

I might be a one-trick pony, but I think validation is 90 percent of what makes a difference to a step kid with a BPD bio parent, whether they are golden child or scapegoat.

There is so much out of our control. Consistently responding with empathy, validating feelings, helping them to identify, label, work through hard ones, I kind of focus there and let the other stuff get worked out between their parents.

I also am a bit of a big mouth in the peanut gallery  

Altho getting better.