When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5

[ForeverDad]

I would offer what the state minimums are and nothing more as far as money is concerned. Our state has a calculator for child support and alimony. There are many online sites that have the same formula that the courts use.
A friend of mine went through a divorce and felt guilty. He offered much more than was required. I tried talking to him. I told him if he paid the state requirements he could always give her more if he so desired. He didn't do that, the economy changed, his business went south, and he almost lost everything since he was not allowed to renegotiate what he agreed to.

David makes an excellent point.  Do you know what your court's child support calculations are?  Did your lawyer help you review it?  Put your data in as best you can and get a ballpark idea of what it might be.

Key to remember is that offering to pay huge gobs of support beyond what is necessary will not make the court like you any better.  It doesn't care how "overly fair" you are or how "generous" you are with your income.  You're just another case on the docket.  If you offer too much support, the judge won't bother telling you, "Hey, that's an awful lot, more than I would order, are you sure you want to Gift Away that much?"  It will just rubber stamp a high offer.  And as david wrote, you could come to regret being so overly generous if your future earnings fail your hopes.

We're no piling onto your case.  We're for you, not against you.  But when you comment that nearly all your income will be seized by child support and spousal support, something is wrong in the calcs or you're ignoring the standard outcomes.  Believe me, courts know the dad needs enough money to live on, what generally works is that the calcs don't "kill the golden goose" (you).  It's only one child, not 5 or 6.  Yes, she will certainly ask for 130% of your income, that's her entitlement speaking.  And court will let her ask for the moon.  But court won't take 90% of your income either.  If that occurs, then something has seriously gone wrong.  There is nothing wrong in protecting yourself.

If you have previously offered too much support, you can always rescind your offer and say you've recalculated expenses and can't afford the prior offers.  Or you decided to ask the court to do the preliminary calculations.  You have a right to reconsider prior offers.  Well, until the court makes it an Order.

[Radcliff]

DB,

Perhaps "25% for spousal and child support" was based on the minimum calculations and the round number is just a coincidence.

If not, this isn't even a discussion.  Minimum calculations.

WW

[ForeverDad]

I noticed another concern.  You were proposing to allow her to "live in the marital home or get an apartment".  Without an enforceable timeframe to vacate, it may take much longer than you imagine to sell the home.  What if she fails to sign papers for a realtor?  What if the realtor tells her to prepare the home for showing and she doesn't?  What if realtor wants to show the house to prospective buyers and she declines?  With her sitting in the house she has little incentive to cooperate with the sale process.  What if she demands a higher selling price and buyers walk away?  What if you do find a buyer but she refuses to sign a quit claim deed or whatever other paperwork is needed to complete the sale?

Perhaps the big concern is that 50% of income directed toward a residence.  That's not manageable and especially not for long.  Since you already know neither of you can afford the house post-divorce, try your best to get that 'albatross' sold ASAP.  And that means closing any loopholes that let her delay vacating and selling.

[Skip]

As a general statement on te overall case... .

This is an equitable distribution state;

There is a post-nuptial agreement in place... .which can be contested and over-ruled in this state.

Can you fill us in on PNA?

[flourdust]

But when you comment that nearly all your income will be seized by child support and spousal support, something is wrong in the calcs or you're ignoring the standard outcomes.  Believe me, courts know the dad needs enough money to live on, what generally works is that the calcs don't "kill the golden goose" (you).  It's only one child, not 5 or 6.  Yes, she will certainly ask for 130% of your income, that's her entitlement speaking.  And court will let her ask for the moon.  But court won't take 90% of your income either.  If that occurs, then something has seriously gone wrong.  There is nothing wrong in protecting yourself.

Yeah -- let me walk you through how the court approaches this in concrete terms.

Let's say between you and your ex, there's $10K/month in income.

The judge is going to look at your budgets. You need some money to live. Your ex needs some money to live. The kids need money to support them. You're both entitled to have living expenses covered, but not to have the same standard of living as you were used to. There may be child support and spousal maintenance formulas, but the bottom line is there is only $10K to divide up.

If your proposed budget plus ex's proposed budget (both including child expenses) exceeds $10K ... .then the judge is going to look to start cutting your budgets to get to $10K.

[Skip]

Good luck! Let us know how it went.

[ForeverDad]

How did things go in court?  I'm sure it was rough.  Why not start a new thread when you're ready to share? 

[JoeBPD81]

Hi, DB,

I can't imagine how this battle feels, I'm very sorry, and I'm rooting for you and for a future with your daughter, and happyness for all involved.

Best of luck.

[livednlearned]

How are you doing DB?

Haven't heard from you in a while.

I hope you're doing ok friend. 

LnL

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone, I'm so sorry for the extended break - I wanted to give everyone an update for so long, but each night I sit down here, I find I've given all I could give for the day. Tonight I was given just the push I needed so I really appreciate that.

Here is what's going on... .

We had our hearing on temporary orders as scheduled. The night before the hearing I prepped by getting plenty of sleep and got a lot of great supportive encouragement from friends and family.

The hearing procedure itself, at least in my state, is for the attorneys to speak almost exclusively, with only brief questions directed at either my STBX or myself. As you know, we had each submitted our certifications to the court, describing the situation and the circumstances of the marriage from our own perspective. My STBX's perspective was based heavily in emotions and outrageous "facts" with no proof, whereas my certification was very heavy on facts, evidence, and logical statements. As such, my STBX proposal for temporary support and temporary custody was based on her emotional reasoning, whereas I proposed a very reasonable, equitable situation.

It would also help at this point for me to describe the participants. First of all, my STBX did NOT have the feared attorney we all thought she would have. Instead, she had a younger female attorney who was clearly compassionate and had become a negative advocate for my STBX. My attorney was an older, grandmotherly woman who had a ton of experience, and even said to me point blank "I'm a problem solver" - and she was! The judge was also a woman who was very compassionate and experienced. Her clerks and the reporter were both females. The court officer was also a female. So here I am, the only male in this room full of women who clearly were dedicated to their jobs and were about to listen and decide on these orders. I felt very at ease.

As the hearing progressed, it was clear that my STBX and her attorney were getting a lot of questioning looks from the judge. The judge made comments like "have you read what was written here?" and "I am very concerned about the financial picture here." After my attorney raised the subject, the judge came right out and said "You can't enforce this post nuptial agreement and also ask for such high amounts of support. Pick a position." So it felt, to me, like the more logical position I was taking had moved the judge more than the emotional arguments. This seemed very positive to me.

Then, after about 45 minutes, the judge stood up and asked both attorneys to see her in chambers. After about 15 to 20 minutes, they came back out and the judge said: ":)addyBear and STBX? You need to settle this case out of court. You need to see a mediator and you need to come to an agreement. I will give you a ruling on the temporary orders, but it will take some time. If you don't settle this divorce, neither of you will have any money left and you'll have even more debt than you clearly have now. IF you settle, you can both walk away with some small amount from the sale of your home, for example. So go do that, ok?"

And that was that.

I was warned by my attorney that it could be several weeks before the judge issues her ruling. In the mean time, there was a single thing we both seemed to agree on, and that is neither of us wants the marital house and we would like it sold. My STBX requested I pay for her apartment, but I refused. There was nothing that specifically prevented her from getting her own apartment, though, so she decided to move forward on her own. Last week she moved some agreed-upon furniture and other things from the house, and as of this weekend she is no longer living here. What she left behind is quite a mess, but now I can continue what I HAVE been doing which is prepping things for sale and getting my own stuff sorted and packed.

In regards to finances and custody, my STBX and I are more or less making things work ourselves. Of course, we skew more toward what she wants than what I want. Two examples: The default custody arrangement has been alternating weekends and every Wednesday dinner. I tried several times to request 2 overnights a week but with no agreement, so I backed off. The second example is finances - my check still gets deposited into a joint account. I have about 24-48 hours after it gets deposited to withdraw some cash for myself and pay the mountains of bills. My STBX then starts spending as much as she can on clothes, furnishings for her new apartment, and an amount on groceries that seems way out of line. In reality, what happens is that STBX leaves our daughter with me overnight and well into the next day on Thursday, and in the coming weeks I will have quite an extended period of parenting time. So I'm fairly happy with that aspect, because all I'm really missing at this point is one extra overnight. The finances are tough, but I've learned to take more than I think I'll need because it always ends up that she takes 100% of the rest. It's trial and error and I feel like even that is improving.

Overall, things are stable but very very busy. On top of all of this my job has demanded quite a bit extra of me. In fact, the week before the hearing my boss told me he noticed I was distracted in customer meetings and needed to find a way to focus more. He was supportive, but also made it clear that business is business. That was a little stressful but a good wake up call telling me to get things back in balance.

Again, sorry for the extended absence while I balanced things out. I will be more diligent about keeping up and jumping in here.

And, I can't say this enough - thank you so much to everyone for being here and for all the support you're offering me and so many others.

~DB

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone - I can't thank you enough for all your support - I've started a new thread to give an update

You can check it out here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326663.0

[JoeBPD81]

Good job DB!

You are managing a hundred things at a time, and in a very difficult situation. I hope more and more things find their place and you can all be happy and healthy.

[livednlearned]

So... .you wait weeks before the ruling, but you're supposed to settle things out of court in the meantime?

Meaning, if you two can settle things, the ruling won't be applied?

Weird!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

It's great that you are feeling stabilized, DB. Having her move out must be a huge relief, enough that you seem to be handling the disappearing paycheck without too much consternation. Is there a reason you aren't splitting the deposit 50/50? You may end up footing a lot of the house sale stuff. Do you want to save up a bit to help with that?

What's the plan for the house? I would think you want to move fast on that in case your ex is more motivated to act with this impending judgement. Is she motivated by money? I don't know that money is always a good motivator -- not when emotional regulation is an issue -- but who knows.

[Notwendy]

DB- what would your lawyer say about you taking half of your paycheck after you deposit it. Seems she's going to spend as much as she can. I don't know your state laws, but as far as I can imagine, she's not entitled to spend as much as she can get.

I am glad you are getting time with your D. While your STBX wife may ask for as much custody as she wants, the reality is that one on one with a child is both wonderful and sometimes emotionally draining. My own experience with BPD mom is that she didn't really have the emotional tolerance for long periods of one on one with children. You should still -of course- ask what you are entitled to, but in the meantime, I think you will see that she does leave your D with you like she is doing now.

To me, it seems like the judge has seen a lot of this type of situation. I hope the outcome is in your favor.

[formflier]

DB77,

Very glad you are grabbing the extra time with your daughter!     

I kept waiting for the story to say "and I expect results of the mediation by (sometime before few weeks)". 

I would certainly encourage you to set up a mediation ASAP. 

Perhaps something is missing here.

Also... .at some point I would be interested in learning more about the post-nuptial.  I'm considering one.

FF

[GaGrl]

Do I recall that your wife has significant savings that she has stashed in her own name?

If so, why is she still accessing your paycheck?

[formflier]

Do I recall that your wife has significant savings that she has stashed in her own name?

If so, why is she still accessing your paycheck?

Yeah... I'm very curious about this as well, although I'm struggling to remember details of your financial picture.

I'm guessing you are balancing a desire to show reasonableness on your part with unreasonableness on her part.  Hopefully the decision to continue to give her access (with apparently little control) has been worth it.

FF

[DivDad]

I married and divorced a BPD with children.  I have been through the legal divorce process and it’s going to be on-going and bumpy ride for you... .and it’s going to get ugly.  I was in the same “pre-divorce” Pollyanna proceeding that you are now experiencing…where you think the BPD is going to be reasonable and you don’t mind compromising more than you should for the sake of your D.   If the BPD is spending on material things for herself now, you are setting a precedence as to her “needs” when things start to ratchet up. And they will ratchet up.  You need to protect yourself and your D.   I don’t know what the custody rules are in your state.  They all differ.  But you need to plant a flag NOW….as to what her assets are and what your assets are.  It appears she has some assets. Talk to your attorney.  This is necessary to establish what she can do for herself and what you need and want to do for your D.      You need to think down the road and not about the current legal proceedings.  BPD have no empathy.  You will soon discover they are going to manipulate you and your daughter to extract a lifestyle for themselves.  Sadly, this happened to me and many other nonBPDs.  You are focused on your D, and the BPD will be more focused on “punishing” you for leaving her. 
If a few weeks, you will realize that the dust has not settled.   BPD thrive on chaos. You need to fasten your seatbelt.  BPD don’t really have a sense of shared custody and going by the rules.  If you have a boilerplate custody schedule, it will be violated.  I went back to court two times (and won)…not on a custody issue, but on the parenting scheduling. It was total family chaos. Make sure you have a pretty defined annual parenting schedule as to when you see your D and have alternating custody on major holidays and events…. because you will need to show the court later on that it was violated…and it will be violated. Plan ahead and plan on the chaos.  In my state, the court frowns upon violating a parenting schedule.   Also, factor in therapy costs for your D.  Read as much as you can about PAS.  Parent Alienation Syndrome.  Once the divorce is finalized and you are living in separate households, the BPD will start putting your D in the middle of all the parent disputes.  My BPD put my sons in the middle during the ages of 6-17…and they internalized all the lies and manipulations.  It wasn’t until they became young adults did they begin realizing that I wasn’t the bad guy.
Ask your attorney about getting a guardian ad litem (GAL) for you D. Get one that is an attorney…not a social worker.  You have your attorney, your STBX has hers.  The GAL represents the children in court.  It’s worth the expense.
Stop having phone conversations with your STBX.  Only do so if the subject is about your D. Steer away from all other topics. And eventually wean yourself off of all conversations.  It will help YOU get some clarity on things. Tell the BPD that you only want to communicate via email or text messages…AND SAVE THEM.  (Tell the BPD that you just don’t want to upset her…with verbal conversations…hence email/texts). Get the BPD to talk about the divorce proceeding via email/text. You will need them later for your attorney when it comes to round 2 and 3.  There is more, but you need to get some things set up now…while you are still in the honeymoon phase of the pre-divorce proceedings.  I hope I am wrong. But Good luck!

[Turkish]

I'm also curious about the money.  What percentage do you take to cover the bills? If it's not half I'd take half (or maybe less but in line with guideline child support given the custody schedule). Or stop or redirect the auto deposits, get a personal account and deposit what's fair into the joint account. 

[Skip]

Hey DB, how is it going?

[david]

The money thing has me baffled. Does your attorney say you have to do that. If you don't I would stop putting it in a joint account. My ex endorsed a few checks that were written to me, deposited them in a joint account, and emptied the accounts when the checks cleared. She had no consequences in court for that. She had a good job at that time.

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone, long time no talk! 

I took a little "summer vacation" from bpdfamily, and I do apologize to anyone who was tracking my story but was left hanging by my absence. I started out thinking I'd need a few weeks to clear my head after the sudden end to my 18 year marriage, but it turns out I needed a lot more. And a lot less.

A full recap would take a long time, so if anyone is interested, these three threads (one, two, and three) should give you a pretty good background of what's been going on. In a tiny little nutshell, I am currently 3 months into the divorce process after a 15 year marriage to an uBPD. The marriage was very much like most of the relationships described here, and included a great deal of emotional and psychological stress. I also put myself and my family into a great deal of financial hardship by living beyond our means in an attempt to "please" my uBPDstbxw and to "save" the marriage. I am extremely happy to say that the old forms of emotional and psychological stress ended the day my uBPDstbxw announced she had filed for divorce. The financial stress is getting worse, but I'm in a position to be able to sell the house now and hopefully take the kinds of measures I needed to take to get back on track. It's nearly impossible to make mutual decisions while co-parenting our D5, so this presents its own form of stress. On the one hand, the courts are in place to make these decisions when we can't come to an agreement on our own. On the other hand, the costs have been astronomical so far and are only getting worse.

To add one little twist to my story, you may recall that I connected with a friend about 2 months ago and we ended up feeling some significant mutual attraction. We've taken a couple of opportunities to briefly meet in person, but we have no plans currently to spend any significant time together beyond that. Things continue to evolve slowly with that friendship / relationship. We are both still legally married, and we both have children involved. As such we are keeping ourselves (and each other) appropriately focused on our number one priorities and just patiently waiting to see what happens after we've both sufficiently resolved our own situations. She is an amazing, amazing person and I am very grateful to have her in my life, and I am certain the feeling is mutual.

My D5 is doing amazingly well, and I have to say that divorcing WAS probably THE best answer to any difficulties she was having. Every parent worries about staying or leaving and what the best option is. I can say from personal experience that the stress and anxiety of two parents who constantly fight and are openly hostile to one another puts WAY more stress on a child than living in two separate homes ever could.

I recently got to spend two straight weeks with D5 and it was the best and hardest 2 weeks of parenting I've had so far. I'm still working a full time job through all this - like I said, my finances are horrible and there's no savings to allow any sort of leave or break in employment. So for the two weeks I had D5 exclusively, I rapidly learned the more stressful parts of being a single parent. My car broke down twice unexpectedly, I was late to a handful of meetings which resulted in difficult conversations with my manager. One of the most surprising things that happened was that I experienced a lot of resistance from other coworkers who didn't understand my desire to be a fully involved dad. While there's often this talk in corporate jobs about "family comes first," I really tested those limits the past couple of weeks. I found out that "family comes first" only means when it doesn't affect any other priority that applies to the business. Need to be home for a sick kid? Sorry. That's not really what we meant. Why don't you call the mom? What about Grandma? Maybe there's an aunt? How about your retired neighbor?

So to talk a little about the ending of the marriage itself and how the relationship with my uBPDstbx is evolving... well? Not very well. I think a little story about my mother's birthday pretty much sums it up.

As many will recall, my uBPDw was particularly paranoid when it came to my family of origin. In particular, my mother was never once allowed to see our D5 at any point so far in her 5 years of life. Now, I think that's extremely cruel and unfair. It's most certainly unfounded, as my mother is very kind and loving toward her other two grandchildren, as well as being extremely supportive of myself and my two brothers. There are many exaggerations and downright cruel and truly paranoid ideas my uBPDw had over the years, too many to list here. The problems I created for myself along the way all had to do with my attempts to validate and soothe my uBPDw's anxieties over these paranoid ideas. Many times, I would "go along" with these thoughts to try and move us past them and get to a better place in the relationship.

Well, when it came time for my uBPDw to file, she brought ALL of these paranoid ideas out into open court by putting them first in the complaint for divorce and then also in her request for temporary orders for custody and support. Fortunately, I had very well thought out responses and plenty of evidence to counter any accusation. The problem is, in my jurisdiction, the family court judge we were assigned takes MONTHS to give her orders. So we had our hearing in late May, and here we are in late July and still no orders.

So with the orders taking forever, and with no obvious or stated legal limitations on my custody time, I had planned to take D5 to see her grandparents for the first time. My D5 was VERY excited for the trip and on the night before, talked a lot about it on a phone call with uBPDw. The next morning, we're packed and in the car when I get a call from my attorney. As it turns out, my uBPDstbx had called her attorney who was prepared to get an emergency order restraining me from taking D5 out of the state. She was threatening to take all the evidence she had collected and put it in front of a new judge to get the orders signed that day. My attorney said there's no way it would stick, but there's a good chance the judge would err on the side of caution and issue the temporary order. If I violated the order by leaving that morning and not returning, the police could be called to arrest me. All of this would cost huge amounts of money in legal fees to fight, and so I canceled the trip.

At no point did my uBPDstbxw call me, explain her position first, or do anything directly with me before she went straight to the lawyers. And this pattern has repeated over and over again, from complex things like the trip to simple things like deciding how and where exchanges were to occur.

So anyway, despite all of this, I do find myself in good spirits most of the time. I'm working out my issues with my manager and reengaging in my job as I've been instructed to. I'm keeping all my e-mails brief informative friendly and firm. I'm cutting costs everywhere I can. And most importantly, I'm staying fully engaged and involved with my daughter as she gets ready to start kindergarten in a little over a month!

Sorry again for the leave of absence and to leave everyone hanging. I'm looking forward to staying as engaged as possible here and as always, I really appreciate having these forums!

~DB

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone, thanks for bumping this up. Sorry, I took kind of a breather for a while so I could sort out what to do next.

Yeah, so, I've asked 3 attorneys now the same question about what I can do with my paycheck going into a joint account. Each of them said, don't change anything until you get the judge's orders. I've made sure I understood their directive each time. They were very clear.

Now, I should be clear that while the marriage was in full swing, we lived way beyond our means. If you add up all the usual expenses from each month, we far exceeded my base salary, and only occasionally make ends meet when bonuses and commissions come in. So my priority the past few weeks and months has been cutting all extra costs, canceling cable, etc. I've managed to bring my own personal costs to where I can live reasonably. Now I'm just waiting for the orders so I can divide out the direct deposit to protect my costs and give her what's agreed to.

The problem will be if the judge comes back and says I have to pay more than was proposed. My lawyer and I worked out very good, thought out numbers and they would allow me to make ends meet each month. My STBX's attorney used some very confusing math to propose me paying about 4 times what I proposed. So we'll see but the money aspect is probably the thing that's most up in the air in terms of the temporary orders.

If you haven't guessed it so far, I'm still waiting for the orders. My STBX increased the delay by requesting that the judge admit another e-mail she found AFTER the hearing. To my surprise, the judge allowed it to be submitted, but also gave me the opportunity to respond. I submitted my response to my attorney a week ago, and now I'm waiting for my attorney to review it and file it.

So the sad truth is that NOTHING had happened with my case since I last posted here, other than more delays.

I also just posted another update here on the more relationship-y side of things.

[pearlsw]

Hey DB,

Haven't forgotten you at all amigo! I'm on vacation at the moment, so just some quick drive-by hugs. Good to hear you are making it through these tough times with your spirt intact! That is not an easy feat!       

wishing you the best in every way! ~pearl. 

[flourdust]

Sadly, this is the norm. I think I was among those who mentioned the hurry up and wait aspect of court.

I recently celebrated (?) the second anniversary of my filing for divorce. Though the court can take a month or two between actions, and there is the occasional administrative hold when the system is backed up, the main cause of delay is my ex and her attorney's non-cooperative posture. Long delays in responding, missed deadlines for filings, making every mediation step contentious. A particular trick to watch for is if you get agreement in mediation -- verbal and a quick outline written down and signed... .and then they introduce new obstacles when converting the informal write-up into the formal judgement and decree.

Don't count on good faith negotiation being rewarded in kind. Hang in there!

[flourdust]

I'm really sorry to hear about the party -- but glad to hear D5 is thriving! I also noticed a change with my daughter when we separated and the nightmare life at home ended.

It's going to be something of a roller-coaster with her, too. As memory fades of what home life was like, and she listens to her mom constantly blaming me, my daughter will sometimes side with her in a battle I never asked her to participate in. But, I demonstrate through love and parenting what my priorities are, and this hasn't been a major issue for us.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update!  Glad D5 is doing well.  I'm sorry to hear about the friction with your stbx, but it's to be expected as you know, even if it is disappointing.  Have you had a chance to read my favorite book, Don't Alienate the Kids?  It's a go-to resource for handling custody issues with a high conflict person (I think your situation qualifies  ).  And I'm sorry to hear about the cancelled trip.  That must have been beyond frustrating and disappointing.

WW

[Harley Quinn]

DB, it's so great to hear from you.  Whilst I'm sorry to hear that things are tough, I think we know that's going to be par for the course.  I still wish for an easier ride for you though. 

From what you've said, I must say that you're making some good decisions and seem to be holding up pretty well with everything that's happening.  It's really good to hear that you're getting quality (albeit challenging work wise) time with your daughter and that she is doing well.  I think that's testament to how well you're coping and the positive impacts upon you both of the dramatic change in circumstances. 

I'm saddened to hear that your planned momentous occasion of granddaughter meeting grandmother didn't pan out.  All being well, this can be back on the table in due course and hopefully soon.  Just keep on doing what you're doing and let us know how things progress.  You've got this! 

Love and light x   

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi DB, 

Good to get an update from you. 

I had a thought after reading about the sad news of having to cancel your trip to see Grandma. Does your mom ever do face time when D5 is with you, or could she write letters to your D5 and have these come only to your location of course? I'm thinking that really it is only a matter of time before they meet in person and she can begin to learn who Grandma is even before then. Is it possible for your mom to come and visit you?

 
Wools