He didn't dysregulate, did I have the wrong talk?

[BetterLanes]

Excuse typing stayed on same device so will be brief.

I am upstairs having said I was going to read funny websites. My H is downstairs laughing at something on the tv. This was not the expected result of the "big talk ". What did I do wrong? More importantly what does it mean if he stayed calm? Did I have the wrong talk or is it me?

My lead in in the end was just that we needed to have a grown up conversation about relationships (lame?) .  I tried Vernick's nonthreatening questions Are you happy? What do you think we could improve/are the problems? What kind of husband would you like to be? (That got A better one than now, evidently. ) I said he talked to me negatively and critically or when happy, immaturely. I talked about our sex life and I think a couple of other things. I didn't cry or get emotional because that has produced a negative response in the past or at least not really positive.

The result was very strange and not what I expected. He didn't seem to have much emotional reaction at all. He swore a couple of times but that was about it. Most of his responses were saying his behaviors or whatever it was were due to things I had done. So I really ended up with a laundry list of things he has an issue with regarding me. His initial list items were things that happened in the last week or so. Then there were some more long term things. But it was all pretty inconclusive. To be fair it was grown-up as per my initial brief! But the main thrust of it was that I needed to improve. I ran out of unthreatening questions and then we were done and I said I was going upstairs. It was very unlike how I imagined.

I will see what happens overnight and in the morning but I am very confused as to how to progress this. I didn't actually ask for anything (eg counselling ) or disclose any of my researching ( BPD, annulments, therapist, MC). I don't know if that is the next step or not. It felt like he didn't really care. That is okay with me but I don't know how to progress in that situation. It feels very strange. I feel very calm and detached though.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I can't imagine that revealing your research and reading and/or suspicions would help at this point.

In fact, I would say wait for a "local professional" to size things up and advise you on that.

You had the talk... good job!

What did you expect?

I think you did it right... .you had the conversation.  There will be lessons in it for both of you.

For you... don't assume.  Listen carefully... .

How does Vernick advise the next steps?  What would feel right to you.

I have ideas... .but will hold the for a bit.

 
FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Formflier! I have processed the confusion stage now.

I revisited the talk last night with the opener that we needed to make an action plan because the previous talk was informative but not really actionable. He was reasonably calm again, and the gains were getting him to agree to my seeing a therapist, and to work through a couples relationship workbook. (He doesn't want to talk to a therapist or counsellor.) He wasn't happy this morning though, so we will see what happens over the next few days.

I can't imagine that revealing your research and reading and/or suspicions would help at this point.

In fact, I would say wait for a "local professional" to size things up and advise you on that.

That was bang on the money, in fact during the "talk part 2" it was clear that he prioritized full disclosure and would have been pretty upset if I had said anything about that. So thanks for reinforcing that.

You had the talk... good job!

What did you expect?

Thank you! I expected a lot of anger and probably walking out or refusing to listen, as has been the case normally in past conversations with emotional content. I don't know if it helped that I didn't really put my emotions into it much. I think he thinks it was a conversation about him and his happiness levels and what could happen to make him happier. I don't mind working on that for a bit, it would presumably have some beneficial effects anyway and start the process of self-examination, which as he said in the conversation he doesn't really do.

I think you did it right... .you had the conversation.  There will be lessons in it for both of you.

For you... don't assume.  Listen carefully... .

Yes, the two part talk highlighted a number of key issues and triggers for him which I can watch out for and work on for myself, and also what kind of relationship work he says he would be willing to do currently.

How does Vernick advise the next steps?  What would feel right to you.

I have ideas... .but will hold the for a bit.

Having processed some now, I think what I did was the "unthreatening questions" stage - that's definitely the idea he took away from it. It wasn't a full-on confrontation as Vernick suggests as the next step after the unthreatening questions (you describe the impacts of their behaviors on you and request specific commitments to change with an ultimatum). The latter is what I thought I was heading for, but in retrospect considering that I never actually tried the former before, it feels right to have given him that opportunity first. So I think our status is officially "working on it" now and I can see what the positive outcomes of that are. That is the correct process by everyone's playbook anyway.

Please go ahead and post your ideas, or if that just changed them of course! I will however soon drop off the site at least in terms of posting while the "working on it" phase lasts. I'll come back on if there are any different developments, but I need to increase the operational security at this point! Thanks to you and everyone else for your help so far.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

That was bang on the money, in fact during the "talk part 2" it was clear that he prioritized full disclosure and would have been pretty upset if I had said anything about that. So thanks for reinforcing that.

 

Please expand on this... .a lot. 

What is "that"?  Does he have a diagnosis?  Has he ever done T before? 

How was it "clear"?

Likely a place to do some word for word (even if that gets long... do best you can)

Just so you know... "full on confrontation is likely not a good idea"  Does Vernick recommend that in her book (I don't remember it)

Remember... .these books are "generally written" and not focused on a person that likely has a PD.  That doesn't mean the books aren't useful.

If dealing with someone with a likely PD and definite "PD like" behaviors... .it is wise to tread carefully.  "Tread carefully" doesn't mean NOT having conversations... .it DOES mean having them in a wise way.  a "full on confrontation" would likely "just be noise" to your hubby and "validate the invalid" idea that "it's all her".

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier,

I meant if I had said anything about my researches and suspicions (BPD, annulments, books, therapist, MC, this site all = "that" my H would have been upset. He said a couple of times during the talk part 2 that he "really hates being lied to", and I know from context and previous experience that "being lied to" in his mind includes not disclosing important or useful information. I did take a moment there to set up for any future discovery by saying that overreactions in anger made it difficult for me to be comfortable with full honesty. He didn't really respond to that but he's heard it now anyway.

My H doesn't have a diagnosis or therapy. I did fairly lightly suggest therapy for him after suggesting T sessions for myself, but he said he "doesn't want to pay money to talk to someone he doesn't know" (same answer goes for in-person MC). I'm going on the basis of the behaviors and attitudes that fit with what I've read in the books and materials. He said during the conversation he does very little self-awareness or self-examination, and in the past I've done little to make him aware he should do that. I'm hoping that the relationship workbook could be a start to that process.

Vernick does recommend full-on confrontation as a step, but in a public place, with a safety plan in place (separate cars, kids away, place to go overnight), and not to be done if there has been actual physical violence or threats of that. She does mention PDs at one point but in the context of "does it really matter what the cause of the emotionally abusive behaviors is as long as you put a stop to them". The plan she recommends for the confrontation would ensure safety, but it's pretty committing - you basically have to leave the relationship or some pretty extreme consequence at that point if there is no positive response (she does suggest giving a 24-hour deadline for them to get back to you with said response). With a pwBPD it appears to me that plan is more likely to result in a negative response than a positive response. You'll be safe either way with her plan, but you have to steel yourself to not mind which way it turns out.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

On the Vernick thing... my understanding is many of her recommendations are pointed at people with far worse relationships than yours.


Not trying to diminish the pain in your relationship, yet I think it is important to understand how your hubby reacted shows you that things are actually somewhat better than hoped.

I think you are on a good path... don't be shocked if that path is "wiggly".  Stay the course... .

FF

[empath]

Most of his responses were saying his behaviors or whatever it was were due to things I had done. So I really ended up with a laundry list of things he has an issue with regarding me.

This response is not a good sign. It's a classic defense move to blame the other for whatever behaviors that one has. Was he willing to work on any of his behaviors himself?

FWIW, my h didn't dysregulate when we had those kinds of talks; they were an opportunity for him to tell me how I can change to control his behavior. Or that I shouldn't have boundaries. His behavior didn't change when I changed mine.

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Formflier and Empath. My H has been pretty normal yesterday and this morning, which is to say with the normal range of behaviors, including being critical. What he didn't get from the talk is any understanding of how his behaviors affect me. I mentioned that some of the behaviors make me anxious, tense, and secretive, but I didn't talk about or express any emotional pain. I also didn't implement any boundaries or consequences. That is very much a next step. I'm hoping the couples workbook will be a way to discuss these things. He said at one point "I don't understand what you're trying to do to me".

It's interesting that you both had different interpretations of the lack of dysregulation - does it mean that my view of my H is too negative as Formflier suggests, or does it mean that he is more consciously manipulative than I thought as Empath suggests? The only way to test this is by starting to set boundaries and seeing what the reaction is. Empath, would your H normally act out when there is emotional content? Mine would which is why his response was unexpected, but it seems they both responded in the same way. It worries me that he can be capable of being so relatively detached - but then he doesn't usually act out around other people with whom he wants to maintain a good relationship (strangers don't matter) so there is an off switch.

Empath, no he didn't express a willingness to work specifically on his behaviors or regret for them. He expressed a kind of grumpy consent to work on improving our relationship, but it had to be without face-to-face counselling for him/us (he agreed to me getting a therapist for my stated reason to talk about "my issues". He wanted the relationship work to be with a focus on sex, which Vernick does suggest as a useful leverage point, and I hope that can lead to a discussion of how the behaviors affect my interest in that area. (I have of course bought another book to read about that.) He is hardly all over it though.

Basically he took the conversation as regarding his perspective and needs (because I started off with "Are you happy?". He voiced justifications for each of his behaviors, including blaming me and also referencing general principles that he uses to justify the behaviors.  The morning after he said "You asked if I was happy, but you made me really miserable." He also made sarcastic comments about a couple of the things I mentioned in the talk, which on the plus side proves he was listening. There is as Vernick said no actual consequence for the behaviors yet and no understanding of their impact. I need next to experiment with boundaries and consequences and see what happens.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

It's interesting that you both had different interpretations of the lack of dysregulation - does it mean that my view of my H is too negative as Formflier suggests, or does it mean that he is more consciously manipulative than I thought as Empath suggests? 

With great trepidation... I'll suggest what I think Empath meant... .  ... .and I'll clarify mine.

Your view of your husband is likely spot on.  It's your view... .my goal is not to prove right or wrong.

That being said, sometimes our view or "predictions" of other aren't helpful... .to either party.  In this case you may have been more relaxed and effective in your talk if you weren't "so ready" for the nuke to go off.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that you are "incorrect" for believing a nuke can go off.


Empath's comment.   I would stay away from any thought that your husband is "plotting" or "consciously" doing things.  I don't see Empath suggesting that, but it's probably wise to clarify.

Your husband is doing what he does.  Just like many times you do what you do without thinking it through.

The entire point of this exercise with him is to get each of you to think about your own and the others behavior and the impact "on the relationship".   

Notice I left you out of that BetterLanes.  I'm not for a minute suggesting that you are not worth better behavior.

I am suggesting that "discussions" between the two of you debating the impact on each other are likely not to go as far as "debates" about the best way to care for the marriage.

All the better that you both (this will be clarified over time) are approaching the marriage from a Christian point of view.  God joined the marriage together and expect both of you to "be a good steward" of the marriage.

Thoughts?

This will take time. 
FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Formflier. What I said in the talk parts 1 and 2 was by no means everything I would ideally convey about the behaviors and their impact on the relationship. Hopefully this would come out if we get to working through a workbook together. But I might just self-censor.

I know the path of incrementally improving the relationship would take time. I still have not decided if that is actually the path I choose to set us on. Particularly if the only way to walk that path is by manipulation of my H and continued censorship of myself. I don't want my H to feel like he has to do that work if he doesn't really want to, like I felt <2 months ago that I had to make the marriage work because God said so. I didn't discuss that choice with him. I hope to before much longer. I know it's hard because the FOG descends - Saturday after the talk part 1 I literally felt like my head was full of clouds, not angry stormy ones but just confusing misty ones. But I am not honestly sure if he would want to put in the work if he had a full picture of what the situation was on both sides and if he knew what I knew. Not that I "know" about BPD, but I have found out a lot about canon law and annulments, to the extent that I now believe we don't have to make this work if we don't want to, personality disorder or not. Having that level of discussion is "throwing glitter in the air" and see what happens (to quote P!nk again).

BetterLanes x   

[formflier]

Yep... .now... blend boundaries into that thinking.

Who is in charge of worrying about BetterLanes future and what she wants?

Who is in charge of worrying about BetterLane's hubby future and what he wants?

Sometimes it is wise to change incrementally and sometimes you grab the wheel and do a u turn.

For now, incremental seems wise to me.

When he realizes that BetterLanes is like a glacier slowly moving towards healthy... .he will be forced into a choice.

Versus the Road Runner running by.

Make sense?

FF

[empath]

BL, my h would act out if there were emotional content or areas which touch emotional hot spots for him. I don't think that our spouses are intentionally manipulative or calculating - the nature of BPD tendencies seems to prevent that kind of thing. They react by blame shifting and believe they are victims instead of taking ownership of their problems.

I think there is value in doing everything that we can to make our marriages work, more for ourselves and our walk with God than for our spouses.

For people with BPD tendencies, abandonment is a huge issue that comes up. So, opening up the possibility of well, not 'making things work' can trigger their fears. My h was talking to his therapist about me "wanting a divorce" for much of their time together - that was without me saying anything about divorce. Of course, his priest and bishop told him that he shouldn't do anything about the marriage because I was the one with the issues that I wasn't willing to address according to him.

[formflier]

  Of course, his priest and bishop told him that he shouldn't do anything about the marriage because I was the one with the issues that I wasn't willing to address according to him.

Which... BetterLanes, is why you should be especially "leaning forward" to make sure that you speak for you and your thoughts and your hubby speaks for him and his thoughts.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Formflier and Empath. I do worry that the people I have spoken to only know my side of the story and have advised accordingly. But I don't imagine joint counselling working for us either, and my H said he won't do counselling himself.

My H definitely acts as though he is a victim - if there's no-one to blame, he acts as if it's the universe's fault for being wrong. He reacts to a problem just by saying things ought to be right or to work (and frequently creates problems by insisting things will be right and not taking precautions in case they aren't). I was thinking about it this morning, and realised that in every problem situation that in any way involves my H, my first thought, main anxiety, major focus, and lasting memory is managing his reaction (overreaction) to it. The zombie apocalypse could come to our town and I would be mainly worrying about how to stop him getting angry and/or upset about it. Most likely I would not tell him about the zombies until he actually saw one, and then try to insist it was just a really ugly guy and he should grab a beer and watch the TV (my H that is, not the zombie). Actually, that zombie apocalypse scenario is a pretty good analogy for how I handle the issues in our marriage.

I like the glacier picture, although the last couple of months feel more like a spring melt! I haven't yet internalized a lot of what I've learned yet. I guess my bottom line, and the original reason why I was in the head state I was before I wound up on this board, was that I couldn't imagine a healthy future for myself that included still being married to my H. Really I still can't picture that. Such a large percentage of the way we relate to each other would need to be changed, I can't visualize what the resulting relationship would be like and if either of us would even want it.

I have learned on this board that it is possible to get yourself into quite a healthy head state while still in a relationship with a pwBPD, and to manage their behaviors so that they are giving you some of what you need (though that isn't necessarily the truth of them), but the result seems to be still not a healthy relationship as normal people would understand it. I know real life isn't like in the movies and fairytales, but I feel like there should at least sometimes be some points of resemblance to my expectations of a relationship somewhere.

The thought of continuing in this relationship indefinitely still gives me that tight and panicky feeling in my chest, so that's not a choice I'm ready to walk myself into just yet, or even be comfortable to start to treat it as the default. That needs more work yet, and hopefully some of that will happen when going through the relationship workbook. A bunch of work has happened on here, so thank you all again

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

 The zombie apocalypse could come to our town and I would be mainly worrying about how to stop him getting angry and/or upset about it.

 Actually, that zombie apocalypse scenario is a pretty good analogy for how I handle the issues in our marriage.

  and to manage their behaviors so that they are giving you some of what you need (though that isn't necessarily the truth of them), but the result seems to be still not a healthy relationship as normal people would understand it.

Hey BetterLanes!

I think you are doing really well "processing" informaiton that is coming at you very quickly... .and most of which is "counter-intuitive"... .and most of which is "heavy emotional stuff".

New FF analogy.  Please don't think, consider or worry about an "indefinite" relationship.  I want you to "worry about" taking a next step towards a healthier relationship.  It's just one step.  

Let the journey take care of itself... .you focus on that next step.  Very much like you seem to have focused on the talk... and did it.  Then... .reflect on results... .take another step.

So... .I agree you, and most of us have worried about controlling these "outbursts" for much of our relationship.  How has that worked out?   Serious question.

So... .if you don't like your results... .stop doing the thing that gets you those results.  It really is that simple.

Now... .sometimes it is hard to know what (to "do instead", luckily being honest and mostly quiet is usually a good plan.

"Goodness Babe... .I haven't a clue what to say at a time like this.  I'm going to think about this and get back to you."  Then... hush... reflect.  Let him manage his anger

I'll come back later and tell you more about a recent example from my r/s. (preview... I did zero... zip zero nadda zippo nuttin to manage her behavior)... .perhaps I gave a confusing answer... .I did my thing... she did hers... .she rode a flying broomstick and I kept stretching my back... .umm... .     someone took my devil with horns thing away... .now I'm ticked.

Keep up the good work!

FF

[Red5]

The zombie apocalypse could come to our town and I would be mainly worrying about how to stop him getting angry and/or upset about it.

I love this BetterLanes !

Wow !  ... .how true !

... .quick "war story" for you, back in 2011, when hurricane Irene came to see us here on the eastern seaboard (NC)... .I remember this exact same "zombie apocalypse" scenario happening to me !

Myself and udx/BPD wife had been married for about seven months, the love bombing, dating, courting... .was o-v-e-r... .I was good and hooked !

And by this time; "the other shoe" had dropped, and "the mask had slipped"... .the honey moon was d-u-n DONE ! ... .I had just retired from the USMC only five months prior, after spending two and half decades in uniform... .I was "in transition"... .my brain was quite scrambled, as we know, when the Non is up a tree about something other than the pw/BPD, then that seems to upset pw/BPD that they are NOT the center of attention, I think that when pw/BPD sees the Non having issue(s), it does upset them, as "we" the Non's are supposed to be the "rock", and ARE NOT allowed to dysregulate in anyway whatsoever... .yes, that's very true I think... .hmmm?

Back to hurricane Irene, so the willows; they were a blowing, the storm surge tide was rising, heavy seas were a coming onto shore... .and the rain was coming down, in sheets, sideways rain, stinging rain, .blowing rain... .and the generator was running... .as external public utility power was long since rendered "none-mission-capable"... .only the little weather radio was our contact with the outside world, until the storm took out the local radio stations aerial antenna array... . my three teenage children were still living at home then... .it was hot in the house, it was very humid, wet, and scary as the "big blow" came ashore here as a CAT II+ hurricane... .

And I remember... .being more worried about NOT pissing her off, .than that great big oak tree in our back yard being torn asunder by the storms onslaught, and thusly being thrown onto the top of our home by hurricane Irene's furry... .yeah... .how freakin crazy is that!

Caveat... .this was long before I had any idea about BPD, or npd, or any pd for that matter... .I was a "lost boy", .under great pressure to "please" udx/BPD wife... .during the preceding days, that long night, and days afterward... .udx/BPD wife was a complete and total crank, ie' off her rails... .and I had NO idea why, .no clue as to why, .it must have been me, as she said ! (?) ... .we actually separated a few months later, as her rages continued unabated... .this separation lasted for six months, .and then we got back together after three sessions with a MC... .hmmm,

Yes, too funny , .now anyways to me as I think back... .

*Hurricane Irene was about to huff and puff and blow all the shingles off the roof, rip the tops of all the trees off, and do all kinds of crazy things round the county... .and I was all worried about what udx/BPD wife was going to say or do next... .whiskey tango foxtrot !

Ya'll have a great day !

Red5

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier and Red5,

Red5, thanks so much for sharing that very funny story! It made me laugh a lot. It is as you say pretty crazy that we can be in the middle of a literal hurricane and yet the priority problem that we have is right there in the house with us. How can a massive natural disaster be all about them? And why do we join in with that narrative? Crazy from the outside, but from the inside, it looks rational, especially if you don't know what is up with them. It is good to be able to laugh about it though!

Formflier, of course you are right, focusing on containment of the BPD behaviors has only really achieved a certain level of functional stability in the relationship, but it's very much a house built on sand. Nobody is genuinely happy at this very shallow and constructed level of relationship. Someone asked me if my H was happy, and I said I didn't think I'd ever really made him happy, only less unhappy than he might otherwise have been. I was dead miserable. Also, after focusing on that for so long I kind of struggle to relate to my H in other ways from trying to stop him being angry.  As you say it's hard to know what to do instead. I'm inhibited about trying positive behaviors that are outside his already stated requirements in case it happens to "wake the dragon" for some reason. Lately I have been staying quiet, but by no means honest. I dreamed last night about what an artificial construct the current relationship is (*dreams are a scientifically valid method of processing information and forming insightful connections, see "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker). It essentially needs a tear-down and rebuild in my assessment. But we'll see.

Your story with the broomstick sounds like it will be interesting too! I will keep taking a look at posts but I'll have limited opportunity for logging in or replying after a few hours from now, for the next couple of weeks. I will keep reading the books 

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

Formflier, of course you are right, focusing on containment of the BPD behaviors has only really achieved a certain level of functional stability in the relationship, but it's very much a house built on sand. 


I was dead miserable.



Also, after focusing on that for so long I kind of struggle to relate to my H in other ways from trying to stop him being angry. 

 
Your story with the broomstick sounds like it will be interesting too! 

Hey Betterlanes

I'm hoping you can spend time reflecting on the bolded things.  In my opinion, they are related... .a direct causal relationship.

Take a look at it from this perspective.  You were putting a lot of energy into an "effort" or "goal" (containing BPD) and the "measure of success" is the actions of a disordered person.

Pause for a second. Read that a few times.  Who puts forth the energy?  Who determines if the energy is "worth it"?

How has that plan worked out?  (hint... .look at the bold and the results in your life)

So... .what would life look like if you didn't contain BPD?  What if you "contained yourself" and put that energy towards you?  What if the measure of success was what you did for yourself and what you did for the relationship? 

Switching gears to when my wife was cackling and riding the broomstick!

I was doing my thing... .stretching out and getting ready for bed.  S10 had a friend over... .apparently to spend the night.

The friend apparently decided he wanted to or "needed to" go home (at around 10pm)

My wife bursts into our bedroom (me lying in floor stretching) and stomps around... ."you're getting what you want!  Are you happy?  It's all about you...   (friends name) is going home."  (stomps around some more)

I "stayed authentic" and "true to my emotions" (befuddlement) "Umm... babe... what's going on?  " as my wife stomped out the door  of the bedroom and "firmly shut it" behind her.

I spent a few seconds listening... .and didn't hear any big drama.  So... .I finished stretching and went to bed.

So... why do you tell this story?  I challenge you to read this story and find where I tried to "contain" the ridiculous behavior of my wife.

What part did I play for myself, the relationship and my wife?  Yep... asking a real question here and I was intention about each of those.

Also... .make a comment about the amount of energy I expended on each of those "parts".



FF