In need of second opinion

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

It’s been rough 24 hrs.
I feel sadness, guilt and shame laying heavily on my heart so I want to share it in a safe environment and get a second opinion.
D15 has been “mouthy, inconsiderate and rude” lately. I realize that she is of age, what’s more worrisome for me, is that she isn’t sharing her thoughts or plans. I understand that, based on dbt, everything is caused. Her behaviour is caused by growing up in a turbulent, highly volatile and invalidating environment.
Last night there has been an incident, with myself, uBPDh and d15. It was preceded by a foul and very triggered uBPDh’s mood based on his “work news”.
I walked into d15’s room closer to midnight because I heard her speaking to someone. I got concerned that it was late, who would you talk to at midnight?. She was on a video call with her friend, visibly making arrangement for the following day. She did ask us to let her go to the mall during the day with her friend. UBPDh asked her if it’s going to be just them, or is someone else was coming (a boy maybe?). She always denies any presence of males, which on its own is also concerning. We never forbidden or punished her for having male friends. Why hide? All we ask for is to meet them and speak to them.
So when I walked into her bedroom and saw her on a video call, my up DJ walked behind me. In a very high pitch, irritated voice she started telling us to “go away, I’m talking”. UBPDh left, as I was slowly moving towards the door, she kept on telling me to get out, because she is busy. When I asked her, and looked over her shoulder I saw her female friend, and a list of clothes she was planning on wearing the following day.
The whole satiation was full off triggers for me: she was clearly lying to us about the mall outings being “isn’t a big deal”, then why all the preparations? She was in the phone at midnight, kind of late for a 15 yo, she was telling me to get out in my own house, instead of politely asking me, or getting off the phone to speak to me, she was disrespectful to both of us in front of her friend, not acceptable behaviour when you want your parents to be nice to you. I told her to immediately get off the call, and told her that based on the above mentioned reasons she is grounded and will not be going to the mall. As I went back to my bedroom, uBPDdh started screaming, for me to take her phone away. Through dbt training, I told him that I’m not fighting his battles so he went and took d15 phone himself. Needless to say, she took it very harshly. Al the crying, angry bursts, “but whys?.”, claims of us being unreasonable, then finally telling me that “it’s all your fault that dad is angry at me”. UBPDh became so disregulated that he was saying things like: “I can’t wait to marry you off, I don’t like you, I have no feelings for you, you are an empty place, you never come and want to spend time with me, you never come to me unless you need money, all I’m responsible for is food and shelter, I don’t want to live for the kids anymore (as if he ever did) I want to live for myself”. I didn’t validate so he kept on repeating that. So finally I said “you are hurt because she is rejecting you, you feel those things in the moment, I also feel bad when she is being like that. However I keep on repeating. A mantra in my head “I’m an adult and she is still a child, my child, that I love, but need to discipline, with love”. Consequences isn’t same as punishing... .
I went into her bedroom several more times to make sure she was ok, she was writing a journal, which I think is very therapeutic, and listening to sad music... .
based on the post from @Formflier I want my daughter to realize: when you are nice and respectful you get things, you need to be nice, polite respectful and honest. That’s all. If you are rude, mean and inconsiderate, you loose privilege. What I don’t want is for uBPDh to see this as an opportunity to scapegoat her and project work related issues onto her.
I feel ashamed even, before our family vacation on coming up Friday I started this snowball. On the other hand, it’s always a bad time, either we are leaving, or she has tests, or something else... .
it’s a classical triangle, I need to weight this with you

[snowglobe]

It’s been rough 24 hrs.
I feel sadness, guilt and shame laying heavily on my heart so I want to share it in a safe environment and get a second opinion.
D15 has been “mouthy, inconsiderate and rude” lately. I realize that she is of age, what’s more worrisome for me, is that she isn’t sharing her thoughts or plans. I understand that, based on dbt, everything is caused. Her behaviour is caused by growing up in a turbulent, highly volatile and invalidating environment.
Last night there has been an incident, with myself, uBPDh and d15. It was preceded by a foul and very triggered uBPDh’s mood based on his “work news”.
I walked into d15’s room closer to midnight because I heard her speaking to someone. I got concerned that it was late, who would you talk to at midnight?. She was on a video call with her friend, visibly making arrangement for the following day. She did ask us to let her go to the mall during the day with her friend. UBPDh asked her if it’s going to be just them, or is someone else was coming (a boy maybe?). She always denies any presence of males, which on its own is also concerning. We never forbidden or punished her for having male friends. Why hide? All we ask for is to meet them and speak to them.
So when I walked into her bedroom and saw her on a video call, my up DJ walked behind me. In a very high pitch, irritated voice she started telling us to “go away, I’m talking”. UBPDh left, as I was slowly moving towards the door, she kept on telling me to get out, because she is busy. When I asked her, and looked over her shoulder I saw her female friend, and a list of clothes she was planning on wearing the following day.
The whole satiation was full off triggers for me: she was clearly lying to us about the mall outings being “isn’t a big deal”, then why all the preparations? She was in the phone at midnight, kind of late for a 15 yo, she was telling me to get out in my own house, instead of politely asking me, or getting off the phone to speak to me, she was disrespectful to both of us in front of her friend, not acceptable behaviour when you want your parents to be nice to you. I told her to immediately get off the call, and told her that based on the above mentioned reasons she is grounded and will not be going to the mall. As I went back to my bedroom, uBPDdh started screaming, for me to take her phone away. Through dbt training, I told him that I’m not fighting his battles so he went and took d15 phone himself. Needless to say, she took it very harshly. Al the crying, angry bursts, “but whys?.”, claims of us being unreasonable, then finally telling me that “it’s all your fault that dad is angry at me”. UBPDh became so disregulated that he was saying things like: “I can’t wait to marry you off, I don’t like you, I have no feelings for you, you are an empty place, you never come and want to spend time with me, you never come to me unless you need money, all I’m responsible for is food and shelter, I don’t want to live for the kids anymore (as if he ever did) I want to live for myself”. I didn’t validate so he kept on repeating that. So finally I said “you are hurt because she is rejecting you, you feel those things in the moment, I also feel bad when she is being like that. However I keep on repeating. A mantra in my head “I’m an adult and she is still a child, my child, that I love, but need to discipline, with love”. Consequences isn’t same as punishing... .
I went into her bedroom several more times to make sure she was ok, she was writing a journal, which I think is very therapeutic, and listening to sad music... .
based on the post from @Formflier I want my daughter to realize: when you are nice and respectful you get things, you need to be nice, polite respectful and honest. That’s all. If you are rude, mean and inconsiderate, you loose privilege. What I don’t want is for uBPDh to see this as an opportunity to scapegoat her and project work related issues onto her.
I feel ashamed even, before our family vacation on coming up Friday I started this snowball. On the other hand, it’s always a bad time, either we are leaving, or she has tests, or something else... .
it’s a classical triangle, I need to weight this with you

[formflier]

I agree she should be grounded... .you have phone and have a talk with her about "why" during the day when everyone is awake... not hungry... not distracted.

That being said

Look to yourself and your parenting first.  I try to parent by "structure".  Goal is to build a structure in which kids can confidently  "do their thing" with clearly defined boundaries.  Talking on the phone at midnight, unless there is an emergency... isn't "inside" my structure.

I have apps installed on all phones to monitor and I shut off some features of phone after bedtime.

At 15... .I'm "not a hammer" about bedtime, because homework and things need to get done.  At that age I want them to be fully experiencing the "natural consequences" of their choices.

Yes... .kids want privacy at this age and depending on my "trust" of them... .I grant it and watch. 

So... .I could go on.

Back to your point... .I support grounding and phone restrictions... .but I'm more interested in the "structure" you have set.

She obviously was fine with being awake at midnight (shocker in my house).  She obviously was fine with making plans with others on the phone at midnight (shocker in my house)
 
She obviously was fine with trying to "kick you out" of "her" room  (I likely would have passed out... .or perhaps had a laughing fit.  Perhaps other kids would have gathered to watch... who knows.  )

Listen... .in my house when a kid exclaims "i'm bored... ." I get that grin on my face... .other kids gather because they know it's going to be good entertainment.

My "parenting point" is that it's not up to parents to entertain kids.  They should "operate in their structure" and "appreciate" the things they have.

All of my kids have "experienced" my fix for boredom.  Usually only once.  We usually scrub things, sing happy songs, make up happy poems, march around the house singing "I'm not bored anymore... "

Then... .we have a talk about wisdom... .and thinking before opening ones mouth.

Works pretty good actually... .

Teenagers are hard... .hang in there.

FF

[Notwendy]

It is interesting that there can be different perspectives on this thread. I can't tell whose behavior you are most concerned about in this situation- your daughter's or your husband's. I also find it interesting that the focus is how to discipline the daughter for being disrespectful when her father is allowed to be disrespectful to her and anyone else.

I have raised teens and have experienced teen age talking back and being disrespectful and I agree there needs to be consequences for that, but in the long run, the best teacher for adult behavior is through role modeling. You are in a tough place for that, so it is essential that you be the role model. By 15  a teen is aware of different standards for behavior.  A teen can ask a parent- why do you drink beer, or drive, or have sex and I can't and the response is- these are adult choices that come with adult responsibility and when you are an adult, you can make these choices but you can't now.

When it comes to other behaviors, it gets complicated. When a child grows up- do they get to verbally abuse their children? I don't think so.

I obviously see this situation from my own 15 year old self growing up with a BPD mother who had seemingly no boundaries on her behavior. I was supposed to speak to my parents respectfully while she was allowed to verbally and emotionally abuse her kids with no consequences and do other behaviors I did not respect. The bottom line: I didn't respect my mother at that age but I knew I had to behave nicely to her out of fear. It was different with my father- I was bonded to him and cared about behaving well with him.

Pairing behavior to money may not be a good idea. That results in a person being fake or sucking up to a parent ( or spouse ) to get money but it doesn't nourish the desire to act kindly from the heart, which is the best reason to act kindly. I do think money should be coupled with chores. I think one can limit privileges for snotty behavior from a teen. However, I think it may look unreasonable to a teen to be punished for disrespectful behavior when they have a parent who isn't demonstrating it.

Teens can be a handful for any parent, and I think you should have rules, restrictions and consequences for disrespectful behavior. Having rules is better than no rules. However, sometimes teen age acting out is reflective of other emotional issues. Is it better to punish or offer emotional support/counseling?

I am not sure she was lying about the clothes and the mall being no big deal. To a teen- what you wear is a big deal even if you are just hanging out with a friend. I know my teens would talk about what to wear a lot. Are there boys there? Possibly- it's a mall but that doesn't imply illicit plans. They may be obsessing about what to wear in case the cute guy they had a crush on might see them- but they may have no plans to meet up with boys. They may also have plans to meet boys, but after a certain age, it is really tough to control what a teen does when they are out of your sight. What is effective is your relationship with them- can they speak to you about their lives and their feelings and their own values and boundaries, and of course your rules and curfews, but excessive control could just lead to more sneakiness. They need some privacy at their age.

[formflier]

Look... .I've been thinking about my advice and I should add a thing or two.

If it was me... I would ground them and then I would take 15 year old to the mall and offer to pick up the friend as well.  I would treat them to mall food and small talk... .of course... .I would worm questions in there about boys I see and what they think about them.

Teens believe their parents "don't get it"... ."hover too much"... ."are embarrassing"... .etc etc.  My goal would be for you to validate that... spike the ball even.

What teens don't express is they like structure and want to know their parents are there.  Yes... .many times they want the parent to be "way over there"... ."barely in sight"... .and they can want that all they want.

Make this fun... while you make a bigger point.  If they express displeasure, especially if the friend is there... .kind of be perplexed... .flabbergasted even... .that they haven't figured out it's better to make plans during "old people hours" so as not to attract the attention of "old people that don't get it... "  (see... you are making the point... playing along with their view... .and helping them connect the dots)

Don't expect them (her) to agree with you.  Expect them to listen... .(don't get caught up in eye rolls).

When there is an eye roll... .(I try to make it fun)... .I sometimes go "Oh goody... .this is like going to the Zoo... .I think I just saw and eye roll!  Can you do it again so I can get a picture?  I haven't seen one of those in a year or so... .when I had to ground (fill in name of other unfortunate child).

So... .they are like... ."Wait... .did I just get threatened with grounding?  Or... ?" (then leave teenage brains to connect the dots)

FF

[formflier]

  I also find it interesting that the focus is how to discipline the daughter for being disrespectful when her father is allowed to be disrespectful to her and anyone else.
 

That is a "structural" issue to address...

If your teen ever asks you that... .don't save your hubby from the question.  Best it gets asked with all of you present.

FF

[Notwendy]

Getting the father in the mix may not help. It wouldn't fly in my house. BPD mom would fly off the rails.  While I don't advocate triangulation, a one on one relationship with the daughter may be the only way to demonstrate some sanity.

[Red5]

She obviously was fine with trying to "kick you out" of "her" room  (I likely would have passed out... .or perhaps had a laughing fit.  Perhaps other kids would have gathered to watch... who knows.  )

All of my kids have "experienced" my fix for boredom.  Usually only once.  We usually scrub things, sing happy songs, make up happy poems, march around the house singing "I'm not bored anymore... "

I concur with FF's remarks above.

I was a single Dad for a few years, I know what its like to have teenagers to raise... .

But I had clear boundaries, rules, regulations... .whatever you want to call them... .if my S or D EVER said "get out of my room"... .well, .that would be the last time they ever tried that line with me.

I was raised by my Grandparents, whom were products of the Great Depression, that said, I learnt discipline, and respect long before I ever went on the summer vacation to Parris Island SC all those years ago, .it was hard enough recovering from the divorce, and their mother departing the pattern, .so when we all set off on our own together, at that time, D14, S16, and S20 (special needs autistic)... .sands the (ex) wife... .I had a lot on my plate,

I had to run a tight ship, and I did !... .actually they were all very good kids, and they still are... .there was a thread a while back about chores, around the house... .to the effect of'

Fast forward twelve years now, both my now D25, and S28 turned out just fine, they are both well adjusted, and on their own, and thriving, .S32(special needs autistic) is doing well too, thank God for that.

Although, and however; their step mother, my u/BPDw... .that's another story, .

Hang in there Snowglobe, I am sorry that you are getting squelch from both you're u/BPDh, and your D15, sounds like you also have a lot on you're plate.

Red5

[Red5]

What teens don't express is they like structure and want to know their parents are there

FACT !

Said another way, teenagers want consistency, stability, and dependability from their parents.

Red5'

[formflier]

And... .please don't think that FF has it all together.  Cell phones were something I "thought I had under control".  

Then... .it seemed like everytime I turned around a kid had their nose in one and I would kinda realize that they weren't paying attention to me or only half paying attention.

I collected phones a couple times and it seemed to frustrate kids more than teach them anything.  To be frank, I didn't have time to properly address it.

So... .I went and did something I "swore" I would never do.  I installed monitoring apps.  I use "screen time".

I get a report of how much time a kid spent on various sites... .I can also track gps.  

I always thought I would use the "strength of my relationship" to influence their cell choices.  And I spoke to my oldest two to make sure I remembered correctly how I did cell phones with them.  I remembered correctly.

Anyway... .parenting styles must change to fit reality.  I have tons of people now trying to get out of work and stare at their phones.

And... I no longer live on a farm, so it's less obvious is stuff is getting done.  

Anyway... the screen time time is a work in progress.  Right now I'm monitor only and I turn off phones remotely at bedtime.  

Next week... .chores will have to be digitally signed of... .before their phones will work.  FF can't wait for the "unfair" claims.

I parent a lot from movies.  Again... .a fun way for kids to "get it"

https://youtu.be/m4H4dIJmzU0

Go up to 45 seconds or so if you are in a hurry.  No light side force for me... .all dark.  Kids smile and get it... .or appear to anyways.


FF

[snowglobe]

Thank you all for your continued support, I’ve read all of your comments and will try to reply individually.
One thing particularly got my attention; “how can you expect a respectful and obidient behaviour from a teenager, when the father doesn’t have any respect to her or anyone else?.”
All solid points, which triggers me to the moon and back. We have talked about it, I have managed to train myself to walk away when he gets abusive.” It’s million times better, but it’s still very much a part of my life, and when we are home, everyone else’s.
I don’t have any control over his behaviour- fact
His behaviour is likely to continue- also fact (based on my numerous conversations with T. He is very much npd, which triggers him to get nasty and attack when he doesn’t that attention, affection or admiration even)
Daughter is picking up his behaviours - fact (last night is one of many illustrations
I’m now going to be treated like that by both of them- d15 and uBPDh- doesn’t have to be fact. I can teach her to respect me, listen to me And give her Dbt skills training package to help her function in a different way. Even if I chose not to be with her father, she would regularly be in his care. Which means I’m still gonna deal with this. This is very uncomfortable and painful for me to realize, so please be patient with me while I’m working through my feelings.

[Notwendy]

I understand but it may help to not look at this as if both of them are being disrespectful to you. Your H is, and you can not change that. But your daughter is acting like a teen age girl who wants to hang out at the mall and have some private time with a friend.

I know how it feels to have a teen trigger you. Mine did. This is normal teen behavior. Teens are pushing away from their parents and are critical of their parents at this stage. This doesn't mean you allow misbehavior or being spoken to disrespectfully. I wish someone had advised me to not take it personally when my own hormonal teen was rejecting, discounting , or angry at me as it would have saved me lots of tears.

I read in a book called "letting go of your teen" - this was about extreme teen behavior which I thankfully didn't have and it doesn't sound like your teen is with this mall trip but something stood out for me: the situations that give you the toughest time are your own trigger points- and I had buckets of them from my own teen age years along with fears that my teen would dislike me as much as I disliked my mother then. But I am not my mother and in the moment of anger, my teen probably didn't like me but the relationship was solid and survived these teen age years.

Your teen needs limits but she also needs an emotionally stable and safe adult to push her limits with. That means if she is all hormonal with rapidly changing feelings- she needs someone to stay calm. Your H will not be able to do this but you can. What you may see then is her acting out more emotionally with you because she feels safe enough to do this with, but doesn't feel that way with her father.

My teen triggered just about everything I felt bad about. When I imposed limits on her seeing a boyfriend too much and mentioned "you should be with someone you love" the response back was " I don't think you and Dad get along". Ouch. But I knew I had to be stable and not react. I admitted- your father and I have some problems we are working on,  but I love you and want the best for you. I didn't invalidate her- she sees what she sees but she knows that- she's going to have rules ,and even if they make her mad, and she says terrible things to me, I love her unconditionally.

I did not feel the same way about my father as I did my mother. Her way of keeping control of me was through fear. I behaved for my father because I was emotionally attached to him. I'm sure I had my teen age moments with him too, but I did respect him. Having a teen age moment with my mother resulted in both of us having teen age moments.

Yes, this is triggering and it hurts. I have been there myself- but she's 15 and you have the chance to be the adult and stay calm, have firm limits and unconditional love. You don't have to allow her to disrespect you, and there can be consequences but also focus on the relationship. A teen acting out is often hurting. It's hard to be present and calm when we are hurting too. Don't forget self care if you can.

Ultimately all parents will make mistakes- we can only do the best we can. Other parents took the parent perspective with their posts. I also took the teen's to hopefully show both sides. I know how hard this is for  you to manage your situation with your H. It was hard on my father too I imagine, but we were able to have a good relationship through my teen years and we kids didn't turn out so bad. You can have a relationship with your D too.

[snowglobe]

I understand but it may help to not look at this as if both of them are being disrespectful to you. Your H is, and you can not change that. But your daughter is acting like a teen age girl who wants to hang out at the mall and have some private time with a friend.

I know how it feels to have a teen trigger you. Mine did. This is normal teen behavior. Teens are pushing away from their parents and are critical of their parents at this stage. This doesn't mean you allow misbehavior or being spoken to disrespectfully. I wish someone had advised me to not take it personally when my own hormonal teen was rejecting, discounting , or angry at me as it would have saved me lots of tears.

I read in a book called "letting go of your teen" - this was about extreme teen behavior which I thankfully didn't have and it doesn't sound like your teen is with this mall trip but something stood out for me: the situations that give you the toughest time are your own trigger points- and I had buckets of them from my own teen age years along with fears that my teen would dislike me as much as I disliked my mother then. But I am not my mother and in the moment of anger, my teen probably didn't like me but the relationship was solid and survived these teen age years.

Your teen needs limits but she also needs an emotionally stable and safe adult to push her limits with. That means if she is all hormonal with rapidly changing feelings- she needs someone to stay calm. Your H will not be able to do this but you can. What you may see then is her acting out more emotionally with you because she feels safe enough to do this with, but doesn't feel that way with her father.

My teen triggered just about everything I felt bad about. When I imposed limits on her seeing a boyfriend too much and mentioned "you should be with someone you love" the response back was " I don't think you and Dad get along". Ouch. But I knew I had to be stable and not react. I admitted- your father and I have some problems we are working on,  but I love you and want the best for you. I didn't invalidate her- she sees what she sees but she knows that- she's going to have rules ,and even if they make her mad, and she says terrible things to me, I love her unconditionally.

I did not feel the same way about my father as I did my mother. Her way of keeping control of me was through fear. I behaved for my father because I was emotionally attached to him. I'm sure I had my teen age moments with him too, but I did respect him. Having a teen age moment with my mother resulted in both of us having teen age moments.

Yes, this is triggering and it hurts. I have been there myself- but she's 15 and you have the chance to be the adult and stay calm, have firm limits and unconditional love. You don't have to allow her to disrespect you, and there can be consequences but also focus on the relationship. A teen acting out is often hurting. It's hard to be present and calm when we are hurting too. Don't forget self care if you can.

Ultimately all parents will make mistakes- we can only do the best we can. Other parents took the parent perspective with their posts. I also took the teen's to hopefully show both sides. I know how hard this is for  you to manage your situation with your H. It was hard on my father too I imagine, but we were able to have a good relationship through my teen years and we kids didn't turn out so bad. You can have a relationship with your D too.

Thank you @NotWendy for this breakdown and valid points. I’ve been triggered because I see this “adaptation” in all aspects of our interaction. UBPDh doesn’t cook, clean, serve his or anyone else’s food, clean up after himself or do anything other then come to and from work, as well as any activity his heart desires. It’s culturally and socioeconomically enforced. I’m a “kept” woman, and he frequently mentions to me, “how quick it is to ruin someone’s credit score”?. The same rules are applied to me, that are applied to our children. As long as he earns money and provides, I will do and say as he pleases. Hesitation is equivalent to refusal and there are always consequences. Lately d15 started raising her voice, telling me things “you have to do for me”, basically mimicking his behaviour. My poor darling, this isn’t her fault. She learnt that it’s most accessible and fast acting behaviour when it comes to my relationships with uBPDh. She is pulling on all the same levers. I just can’t handle the idea to be treated like this by her. I have no armour when it comes to my children.

[snowglobe]

I’m hiding out in d15’s room. It’s pathetic and frankly counterproductive, as he sees and attempt to flee as “rats running from the slinking ship”, and a proof that “we have nothing in common”. I’m overwhelmed and disregulated.
We have two cars that we share, one of them, that is being most frequently used had a nail puncture in the tire. The tire kept on deflating. I asked for him to take a look at it, since he has more experience. I was berated in return and told to “shove it where the sun don’t shine”. Fine, I can deal with it on my own. Took the car to tire place, they told me they can’t fix it, the nail is too far to the edge. Suggested a private place. I called uBPDh for an advice, I know, I don’t learn the first time. He told me to take out the bail and buy a canister with temporary tire filling, and keep on driving like that?. Wth? I’m driving with kids, I’ve already been told that it’s not safe, doing what he told me to would have been playing Russian rulette with my children’s lives. Went to the other tire shop and patched up the tire properly. Small fee applied. He can afford to buy a brand new tire, or even the car Efe he wanted to, but he is keeping me “in check,  on the leash, in line”, many ways of saying that I don’t have access to his money. When I came back he asked me about the tire. I said the truth. He went with “go get a job at McDonalds, or start cleaning houses”, so you earn money to pay for car repairs when you need to... .
why? Why am I still doing this?. I’m some kind of masochist. I am capable and fully able of obtaining a job, supporting myself. But I’m so darn afraid that if and when I focus my attention on me, and my needs he will leave me and make kids lives miserable. The time when I was employed was the ugliest time for me.
The only way he can be happy when I’m miserable and visibly upset

[formflier]

So... .I'm curious about how you know when you can spend money.

Do you have a credit card or debit card?

I'm wondering why not just buy a new tire and be done with it (although patches are ok... there is debate in auto circles... as you found)

Anyway... .for that time of thing, why ask him?  (there may be reason... but I don't understand the mechanics behind cash flow for you)

Switching gears.  Since he's said it... .why not move back home, be with kids, work on school and work.

No drama... just do it.  Call the bluff.  Once he realizes that you aren't going to be waiting on him hand and foot again... .I suspect his attitude changes.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

What is the living situation for your kids? Are they returning to your parents when school starts? How do they behave with them?

Do your kids have counseling to help them deal with their family situation?

Sometimes teens act like they have BPD - but thankfully they grow out of that. With hormone swings come mood swings. It was very scary for me to see my teen momentarily acting like my mother and you may be afraid your 15 year old is like your H. She may imitate some of his behaviors.

Some teens do grow to develop BPD but it could also be the age. I think the behavior you witnessed was in the range of normal- some mouthiness, secrecy with friends. Serious behaviors would be drug or alcohol abuse, promiscutity, poor school performance. But if you have a teen who isn't doing bad behaviors and is doing well in school, video chatting with a girlfriend late at night in the summer seems pretty tame. They could be plotting about what clothes to wear just in case that cute guy happens to be at the mall and not have plans to meet up with anyone. I wouldn't be naive, but also not think the worse of her unless there is reason to think that.

I hope after last night the two of you can have a chat- maybe go get lunch together. I hope she will tell you what she feels about last night, or how she sees her parents. Yes, it may hurt but I think it is important to validate how she feels and have her know you love her, even if things are difficult. Teens think they know everything at that age, but she isn't able to fully comprehend the situation. I would not offer TMI, just listen to her point of view. She may be very critical but that is typical of her age and ability to understand your situation.

[formflier]

Especially with teens, but kids in general, let them get their point of view completely out.  Listen, reflect it back... .and here is the thing... .absolutely no correcting in the moment.  (ok... .obviously life and death needs immediately corrected... .but I think you get my point)

The "bigger thing" is that a child feels like he can talk to a parent about how the child sees the world.  Then... .after you've given it some thought for a day or two, talk some more and ask them to consider things from the point of view that you believe is right.  Give them some nudges and let them think about that.  

Once I started doing this with my kids, the change in the relationship was pronounced.  I used to think that they would feel better knowing "the truth" (as fast as possible).  That's actually rarely the case.

I'm very interested in how you handle the planned trip to the mall the next day and talks afterwards.

FF

[snowglobe]

Dear @FF, in short
-> when his salary comes in I pay all house/children related expenses, with myself I spend my credit cards. UBPDh sometimes generously allows/approves of the purchases, then it’s easier. If it’s a bad month for his moods, I only pay interest until he decides to pay it off. That’s why I always have a budget set on how much I can spend. In no way I want to be left with an outstanding debt if he would decide not to pay for the expenses.
->all house bills, food, cars and mortgages are paid by debit, my personal purchases are put in a credit card
->I ended up patching a tire in specialty car shop, I wouldn’t not want to risk safety of my passengers while driving. His suggestion for me to repair it myself didn’t come from a place of thought, rather first thing that came to his mind “for you to feel what it’s like to be dirty and lift heavy things” ( regarding the car), so I ignored it
->my cash flow is as such; fixed salary once a month, if he is feeling generous I get unidentified amounts, which wary. I always spend less then he gives so I have a left over for when I need it
-> you ask me about a move back home, it’s certainly a fair question. One I ask myself often. It would be in line of not saving him from the consequences, and would teach us both something. Me- of depending on myself and that earning a living is less stressful and time and energy consuming, him ... .I’m not sure
Maybe not to run his mouth?.

[Notwendy]

earning a living is less stressful and time and energy consuming, him ... .I’m not sure


Work can have its stressses. I have done both- worked part time, full time, and been a stay at home mom at various times in my marriage. The stressful part for me was balancing home, small children- day care, sitters, and with older kids- the various activities.

It was less stressful to not have to juggle both, but looking back, I am much happier working. Work is a source of positive reinforcement, a social outlet ( with appropriate boundaries for the workplace) as I was interacting with other adults, and it does me good to do something that is interesting to me. This, in addition to a paycheck was a source of affirmation.

You may not earn as much right away as you do now and I understand that keeping your family afloat is a big concern, but also it isn't just about balancing stresses but choosing what is good for you and all of you.

[formflier]

So... if you are getting a salary each month I don't understand why there is so much discussion from you to him... and him saying "BPDish" things back to you... about spending.

What's that about?

Very of you to put some back for rainy days when he gives you extra.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Snowglobe,
You're about to embark on a family vacation today? if I read your original post correctly. How are things with your H and your daughter?

I wouldn't read too much into the situation the other night with her. It sounds like typical hormonal teen acting out. I know it's easy to conflate her behavior with your husband's behavior and worry that she might be picking up similar traits.

At this point, your influence over her is waning, so like what FF and Notwendy have said, your best strategy is to be a solid influence in her life and to spend quality time with her so that she feels that she can trust you and rely upon you. Certainly at this age, she realizes how inconsistent and unreliable her father is to be able to support her emotionally because he's too obsessed with his own personal demons.

Cat