Going to "have a talk" with DD tomorrow

[Only Human]

Hi Family,

My DD's verbal abuse of GS has been increasing in the last month. This may or may not be why:

Last month I worked a lot of overtime and was barely home for about two weeks. Then I was sick for several days. During this time her on-again, off-again BF got a part-time job working at marijuana shows and wasn't around as much either, or he'd cancel plans with GS due to some (made up, I think) crisis/health issue. She's told me in the past that when she and GS spend too much time together, without someone taking him out of the house, away from her, it's not good.

On Sunday, GS wasn't napping and DD stormed into his room, closed the door, and began yelling at him. She was telling him that he was being an a-hole, a bad boy, didn't deserve to have toys in his room if he wasn't going to take naps, etc. He said, "You're a bad mommy, leave me alone," and she told him, "No,  that, I'm the mother and you will do as I say you little jerk. Go to sleep now!"

I asked her to please lower her voice and she turned on me with a vengeance.

DD: No that, I am so angry at him I want to punch him in the face and I can't do that so I yell, get over it. I don't care if my yelling triggers you, you need to learn your place and stop interfering with my parenting. When has that ever served you well in the past? I want to punch YOU right now, b___! It's not illegal for me to yell at my kid when he's being an a-hole. Why haven't you learned by now that asking me to stop yelling makes me yell more? You need to go back to work (I'd been off for 5 days in a row) Things are better without you here.

She walked away and I closed my bedroom door. She came back.

DD: And another thing, you've got some nerve criticizing my parenting when you neglected me for years with your alcoholism. Butt out, b___! I'm not going to stop yelling at MY son. Learn your place, b___!

GS was out of his room about 30 minutes later and I came out to the living room. DD went into the garage and I told GS, "I'm sorry mommy yelled at you. You know it's not your fault, right?"

GS: Yeah, I'm sorry mommy yelled at you too. Why does she always yell?

Me: I don't know why. How does it make you feel when mommy yells?

GS: It makes me feel happy.

Me: It makes you feel happy?

GS: Yep!

Poor kid.

I worked from home yesterday and GS was locked in his room because he wasn't asleep for a nap within 15 minutes. After about 45 minutes, he started calling for DD, "Please let me out of here right this instant." DD was in the garage and I texted.

Me: When can GS come out?

DD: I've got it.

But she didn't come in. She called me a few minutes later.

DD: I am very frustrated with you, just because GS is asking to come out does not give you the right to interfere. He has only been in there for 45 minutes, he needs to nap, and now you've interrupted my alone time.

Me: I hear you, you're frustrated with me. I'd like to talk about ways we can make this better.

DD: The only way it's going to get better is if you butt out. You need to learn your place. He's my son, not your son, and you have no say in how I parent him. I need my alone time, I've told you this multiple times. Why do you continue to do and say things that upset me when you know I'll react like this? When will you learn?

Me: I don't appreciate the threat behind your words and I would like to talk more after things have calmed down.

DD:  It's not a threat, I'm not yelling, I'm not cussing at you, I'm not calling you names, if you feel threatened, that's on you. I'm using my big girl words, telling you I'm frustrated, and telling you that you need to butt out, your place is grandma.

Me: I'd like to talk to you when things have calmed down.

DD: No, no, no, no, you don't get to interrupt my alone time and then not talk to me.

Me: I don't have time to talk now, I have work to do, let's talk later, there are things we need to talk about.

DD: I'm not talking to you after GS goes to sleep, that's MY time, I've repeatedly told you that my time is my priority, not talking with you. How many times do I have to tell you?

Me: Ok, I hear you, let me know when you have some time to talk. I'm frustrated too.

DD: I'll see if BF can take GS after his nap on Saturday, but if he can't, maybe Sunday, but if something comes up, I'm not giving up my time for this when you're the one who caused this problem.

Me: Ok, Saturday or Sunday works for me. Just let me know.

She hung up on me.

GS was continuing to call out and DD came in from the garage, threw open his door and shouted, "No! You can't come out until I say so!" then slammed his door.

I had to go into work and left about 30 minutes later. As I said goodbye to DD she snarled at me, "He's asleep." I said, cheerfully, "Cool. I don't know when I'll be back, see ya when I see ya."

So, GS will be gone for a bit after his nap tomorrow and I'm not sure how this talk will go.

Here's what I want to say:

I love you and I know you love me, I know you love GS, and I want to support your parenting but I gotta be real here, I don't like the way you and GS talk to each other and I don't like the way you and GS talk to me. I believe it's important to speak respectfully to others, without yelling, cussing, threatening, and name-calling. I believe the only way GS will learn this is by us modeling this behavior.

That's all I've got. Except that I want to say, "When I hear you verbally abusing GS, I'm going to interfere." Not sure about this part but it really hurts my heart that GS may look back on this time and think, "My mom yelled at me, called me names, and Memaw didn't do anything."

~ OH

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi there OH

I’m feeling overwhelmed for you, what an extremely difficult situation for you all. No wonder you’re feeling anxious about having a talk with your daughter.

Here’s my thoughts. You may not find them helpful! I’m sorry they ramble.

I read a text by Skip. He said that when two people have different core values then the relationship can’t work. His example I think was something like “guy wants open relationship” and his partner doesn’t. The partner may give in awhile but we can clearly see a path of unhappiness if they stay together. The partner knows she can’t change him. We are in challenging territory because the parent/child relationship is forever.  Your daughter may have very different ideas from you about how she raises her son.

No matter how many times I’ve spoken about my son’s drug use, he continues. He’s fixed into a pattern of behaviour that most probably will never change. But for you, it’s incredibly difficult because of your love of your grandson and also your responsibility to him.

Your daughter has a view that her son is her total responsibility In law, that’s true. You’re wise enough to know that there’s harm going on here though and it’s all just so unpleasant for everybody.

Trying to work out who is responsible for what may help untangle this complicated web.

Your daughter isn’t coping with her son, so she introduces some “me” time to help her cope. Rigid thinking and inflexibility don’t work well when a child won’t go to sleep when they’re supposed to. Her priority is getting her “me” time, at all costs. In her mind, she HAS to have it when she’s expecting it. It’s so interesting she values her “me” time so much she protects it and keeps a lid on her temper.

Would your daughter have agreed to you saying “you know, GS doesn’t seem that sleepy today - I can see you’re doing your thing right now, how about I take him out for awhile?”  

I get the feeling she wouldn’t agree?  

Because of her need to feel in control of the situation?

I advise you to think about phases OH.

The first phase, is for you both to understand who is responsible for what.

The second phase being, living and experiencing the truth of the responsibilities.

This may highlight some new perspective on your situation for both of you. Your daughter needs to learn some problem solving skills, that she needs to be flexible. If this can be nurtured in her, her confidence in her abilities will grow and her feeling of being in control.

I don’t envy you OH, a tricky conversation. But what about? There’s so much to talk about and too much for her to process in one go.

Whatever you decide is the top priority FOR YOU. Then deal with that one.

Keep it short and simple. DEARMAN? it can become unwieldy in a complicated  situation but used for one single request it works.

Facts, feelings, say what you want to happen, reinforce “if you do this then we can all get along better. For now, I’d like you to think about what I’ve said”.

Be confident. Say it. Leave that in the air. End of conversation. Let her problem solve.

LP

[Only Human]

when two people have different core values then the relationship can’t work.

Yes, my T also said this. Thanks for saying it again. I think that's what's going on here and it would be best if they moved out. The trouble is, they've nowhere to go and I had hoped that my continual presence in GS's world could help balance things for him. If I ask her to leave, she will cut me out of his life and then who is on his side? It's tragic and I know there are no easy answers.

for you, it’s incredibly difficult because of your love of your grandson and also your responsibility to him.

Yes and my fear that being subjected to her behavior will result in him becoming "just like her." I already see signs that he has difficulty regulating his emotions, has poor self-esteem, he's defiant, caretakes her, etc. I see that my attempts to be a balancing influence are less and less effective as the days go by.

I'm ashamed to admit that I sometimes think it would be better if they were out of my life so I don't have to be subjected to my GS's eventual personality disorder. DD treats me with disrespect and so GS does as well. That is, unless she is not present. For example, our Saturday mornings together sometimes get off to a rough start but soon become centered and he's compliant, loving, and kind. If DD enters the picture, all bets are off and he's back to being non-compliant with my requests, hitting and kicking me when I send him on take 5, calling me a  b___.

Trying to work out who is responsible for what may help untangle this complicated web.

I think you are saying, she is responsible for parenting her son and I am responsible for taking care of myself. It seems unfair to GS and I'm having a very difficult time butting out. Mostly due to my GS's perspective, wondering why I'm not protecting him from her. By taking care of myself, I picture myself stating, "I'm don't want to be spoken to with unkind words/hit/kicked. I hear that you don't want to take 5 and understand that but right now I'm going to leave because I don't want to be hurt."

Would your daughter have agreed to you saying “you know, GS doesn’t seem that sleepy today - I can see you’re doing your thing right now, how about I take him out for awhile?”  

I get the feeling she wouldn’t agree?  
Because of her need to feel in control of the situation?

You're absolutely right. The response would likely be, "No, he needs to sleep. If you take him out he won't sleep then he's a monster until bedtime."

I advise you to think about phases OH.

The first phase, is for you both to understand who is responsible for what.

Back to, she is responsible for parenting GS, I am responsible for taking care of myself. Am I on the right track?

The second phase being, living and experiencing the truth of the responsibilities.

So, butt out? 

It's Saturday so I'm hanging with GS. I'll come back to this later.

Thanks, Lollypop, for responding to me.

~ OH

[Lollypop]

Hi OH

I think you are saying, she is responsible for parenting her son and I am responsible for taking care of myself

I’m suggesting that you really think hard about what your responsibilities are and in what priority. I think this will help steer you when you are facing decisions. .

I found myself getting confused, sometimes I’d justify my actions to myself. I needed some firm ground to stand on. My son wasn’t behaving like the adult he was, and I wasn’t treating him like one either, yet I wanted him to be an adult. It was difficult because while he lived at home he’d flip flop into childlike behaviour when it suited. It worked both ways too. For instance, if I suspected he was in debt and a letter came I’d open it!  Having adult kids living at home can be tricky - you’ve got BPD and a young grandson! It’s not easy!

Have you both got clear understanding of who does what, who is responsible for what?  Who makes meals, who buys food, decides meals, bills? Who is primary carer for gs? What role does the secondary carer have and what are they responsible for? Who comes first in your home?

I think when you start asking yourself these kind of  questions you’ll better understand YOUR priorities.

The second part is then living with them. You experience what it means to live with a shifted view of where responsibilities lie. Your daughter will too. Maybe, one of you or even both will see that there are grey areas. Your daughter may not like living with all her responsibilities and be more willing to gratefully receive support. Nothing is fixed in stone - it’s about exploring a way forwards for you all.

These are my thoughts but I’m looking at your unique individual situation. You know what you’re living, I don’t.

You can’t change your daughter. You can influence your gs but your daughter may react to that negatively. What can you do?

Understand your responsibilities. Focus your attention on a few priorities. Keep steady, calm, take the long view.

What’s one thing that could change that would make life easier in your home? I’m laughing to myself OH - forgive me! It’s a brick wall dividing your house in two with a little escape tunnel for gs!

I totally understand this line your trying to negotiate. It’s incredibly challenging but I think you’re doing brilliantly.

LP

[Only Human]

Have you both got clear understanding of who does what, who is responsible for what?  Who makes meals, who buys food, decides meals, bills? Who is primary carer for gs? What role does the secondary carer have and what are they responsible for? Who comes first in your home?

We mostly live as separate households. I have all the responsibility for the bills, we purchase and prepare meals separately, I rarely eat at home. She is the primary carer for GS, I take care of him Wednesdays after work until after he's gone to sleep and I take care of him from the time he wakes up on Saturdays until he's gone to sleep for his nap. The Wednesday/Saturday thing was suggested by me as a way to give her a regular "break" she could count on. I think we are both clear on the above.

As for who comes first in our house, I feel like she does. If she isn't happy, nobody's happy. I've done less walking on eggshells than before but the tone of the home is greatly affected by her emotions.

I think when you start asking yourself these kind of  questions you’ll better understand YOUR priorities.

My priorities are myself, then my grandson.

The second part is then living with them. You experience what it means to live with a shifted view of where responsibilities lie. Your daughter will too. Maybe, one of you or even both will see that there are grey areas. Your daughter may not like living with all her responsibilities and be more willing to gratefully receive support.

I think what you're saying here is let go. Sorry for being thick about this, I really am trying to "get it."

GS is currently napping and I have about 30 minutes before our talk and DD is already annoyed because she asked if we could talk while GS is napping instead so she can have her alone time while he's gone, not waste it on me, "like always." I told her I was in the middle of something and preferred to stick to the original plan.

So, DEAR MAN:

Describe: I am frustrated because our personalities and values are very different and it's causing conflict between us.  

Express:  While it's true my "place" is grandma, we are living together and I feel as if my role is more a co-parent with you. This was the agreement when you came to live here in April.

Assert: I want our home to be a safe, loving place for us all where we treat each other with respect, speak without screaming, name-calling, belittling, or threats.

Reinforce: If we can work together to co-parent GS in a respectful way, you can live here until you are able to afford a place of your own.

I don't know, it sounds ultimatum-y. I'm very anxious about this talk. The 30 minutes is up and we are just waiting for BF to pick up GS.

~ OH

[Only Human]

What’s one thing that could change that would make life easier in your home? I’m laughing to myself OH - forgive me! It’s a brick wall dividing your house in two with a little escape tunnel for gs!

Thanks for the laugh, LP - it's true! I really do think it's time for her to move out and I'd like that to happen on the best terms possible so that I can continue to be in GS's life (and her life, but without the drama, blame, and verbal abuse).

~ OH

[Only Human]

Reinforce: If we can work together to co-parent GS in a respectful way, you can live here until you are able to afford a place of your own.

This will likely be received by her as, "Shape up or ship out."

And maybe that's what I'm saying. I impulsively gave her 30 days notice back in October then, on the eve of her departure, I offered to let her stay until January and she accepted. Then she asked if she could stay until she got a job, her tax refund, and her own place. I told her we'd take it a month at a time.

It is not my responsibility to house her indefinitely, despite my fears that she has nowhere to go, will be homeless, or choose to live with her BF and his mother in a very toxic and unhealthy home - cockroaches, multiple cats that use the whole house as a litter box, BF's mother is an addict with mental health issues of her own who invites other addicts to stay the night, and on and on and on.

~ OH

[once removed]

every time i read these arguments, my tendency is to distinguish between what she believes shes entitled to do, and what shes entitled to do in your home.

i suspect shed take that as holding the house over her and give it right back to you: "are you kicking me out". what do you think?

is she taking any steps to move out?

[Only Human]

i suspect shed take that as holding the house over her and give it right back to you: "are you kicking me out". what do you think?

Yes, I think she'll say that.

She's stopped putting applications in after two interviews. One resulted in no job offer, the other resulted in a job offer but required a driver's license and car; she has neither.

She hasn't filed her taxes yet; she should get about $3k with the EITC and Child Tax Credit.

With no income beyond the $300+/- she gets from social services (decreased from $500+/- because she refuses to participate in their Employment Services Program), her options are very limited without a job.

BF is here - wish me luck!

~ OH

[Only Human]

Well, it went better and worse than I thought it would. I never got to the reinforcement part, it was difficult to get any words in at all, actually. And the words I did use weren't always nice or validating and were sometimes accusatory and judgmental. I remained calm throughout, her emotions ranged from angry, sad, frustrated, and around and around.

The takeaways are:

She loves me but she doesn't like me. She has too many resentments and doesn't want to have more than a surface relationship with me. She wants us to live like roommates and not have to interact with me or spend time with me on any personal level. She is working on getting a job. She hasn't received her W2 so she can't file her taxes; she's not allowed on her former employer's property and when she called to talk to someone who she thought was a friend, they hung up on her. None of this is her fault. She's the only one making any effort. If I don't like how long it's taking her to move out, she wants me to kick her out. She has someplace to go but it's not safe for GS. She doesn't know what I want from her, asked me to write a contract and she'll sign/follow it. All her life I've kicked her out, called the police on her, hospitalized her, tried to control her, change her. She's not changing for anybody. The only way she's going to stop yelling at GS is if he's away from her for long periods of time every day; she believes it will get better when she is working. She believes GS is a good kid, that she is a great parent, that yelling at him doesn't harm him, and many therapists have agreed with her.

I told her I love her and want a better relationship with her. I want a peaceful home where we speak respectfully to each other without yelling, name-calling, cussing, and threatening. I felt threatened when she told me she wanted to punch me. I want her to have a happy life. I'm trying to understand and accept her limitations. I know her life is difficult and I know how much she values her alone time. I told her that, most of the time when I ask her to lower her voice, she doesn't rage at me and I appreciate it. I told her I know she is trying.

My friend offered his house while he's out of town this weekend and I'm taking him up on it.

~ OH

[Lollypop]

Hi OH

She has too many resentments and doesn't want to have more than a surface relationship with me

I told her I love her and want a better relationship with her. I

You’re not on the same page. But ok. You now know where you both stand. You can’t change her view. Your relationship is work in progress. I used to put way more into my relationship with my son than he did - it wasn’t a healthy relationship. I wasn’t even sure what a healthy relationship looked like. It only got healthier when I stopped trying to interfere and change him. It took a long time for him to warm up to me, to trust.  

So your daughter resists taking responsibility for herself. She’s not getting on with looking for a job etc. She’s fearful. Her situation is bearable, just. You’re left with the reality that she expects you to not judge her parenting skills.

It seems that it’s been left that your daughter is saying leave me to this, stop interfering and I’m getting on with it.

Boy oh boy, I’ve heard that from my son so many times. I used to take it as “shut up and put up with it”.

This means that you live in your home as room mates, watching and waiting for her to find a job and eventually move out.

Your immediate needs seem to be?
1. Daughter - No shouting and cussing
2. Daughter - securing  a job
3. GS - Spend positive time with

They rely on your daughter abiding by your limits. You talked about your daughter’s Limitations. Remembering that your limits are flexible. It’s about having realistic expectations. Boundaries are 6ft thick concrete and always have consequences - “you will not hit me” based on our core values.

You’ve said your priorities are yourself and gs. So maybe the above list isn’t correct?
1. Yourself (nicer home environment - no cussing)
2. GS (ditto)
3. Daughter getting a job to eventually move out

What’s your daughter’s motivation to look for work?

What’s your thoughts about focussing on 3 things that meet your priorities, whatever you decide they are?  It’s only a suggestion but this approach helped me put my energy where I wanted it to be.

For what it’s worth, I find it incredibly difficult to stand by and see a child be treated unfairly. Perhaps, indirectly, a focus on “fairness” might be a way forwards. Being shouted at when you’ve done nothing wrong isn’t fair. I’ve no other ideas how you can get around this OH - I’d be upset too.

LP

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders