I can’t change her feelings but I can create a gradient that slopes toward me

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous threadhttps://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334261.new#top

I don’t know if anything I have done has worked. We get back to what is the measure of success when you’re midway through a divorce. I am no longer being accused of being abusive. Friends now aren’t so much mystified by me staying and more enamoured by my endurance, and they are instead been more mystified by her inaction... .is that success? Does it matter?

I don’t believe I am making things worse.

I believe using the tools and having understanding and empathy of BPD, I can create a gradient. I can’t change her feelings or emotions but I can create a gradient that slopes towards me rather than away from me. I know it takes emotional effort to go through a divorce process, so there has to be a need, a slope away from me that’s more attractive than having a slope towards me. If she desires to push through with the D then nothing I do will make a difference.

Maybe it’s just me, but if something is that clear cut then there’s very little to question or procrastinate over. Hopefully my behaviour prompts more searching and questions.

Enabler

[empath]

It does take emotional energy to go through the divorce process, and it has to be sustained for a length of time. For me, the thought was that my h would need to come up with the energy by himself.

[Enabler]

Exactly, and I have not rescued her from that requirement, nor do I believe God, rational thought nor ‘doing it for the kids’ instructs me to. Secular society might believe I ‘should’ bolt, hand her a divorce and go and bed 20 women using Tinder... .but I’ve never bought into secular society very much and have always felt different, more sensible, less impulsive, less ‘all about me’. Secular society to me almost seems to be designed by borderlines for borderlines!

I guess I feel I have some integrity, what I say I believe I put into action... .everywhere and in everything... .naaaaaa I’m not there yet, but I’m working on it.

[formflier]

 Hopefully my behaviour prompts more searching and questions.

If the goal is prompting searching and questions... .wouldn't asking the church to clarify whether or not they really want to put her forward in this pastoral role accomplish that?

Vicar (hoping I'm using that term right) would be asking, Vicar's boss would be asking, your wife would be asking and answering, other man would be asking and answering.
 
One question that everyone deserves an answer to... ."our church (or one of them) has advised us to "knock it off" (ff paraphrase).  We've chosen not to and our church (or one of them) has put me forward as having the requisite moral character to  "pastor" others."


FF

[Enabler]

I don’t see what positive result would come of this other than upping the arms race. I’m showing her I’m NOT fighting and involving myself in her games. Do you really feel that she would come to some jolting epiphany because the church gives her another scolding? I would put my money on that her and OM would just feel even more like Romeo and Juliet, then against the world... .the reality is that it’s a fantasy and it’s their own imagination against themselves... .let them fight with shadows, let them commando roll around in the bushes hiding from their conscience, it will catch up with them. ... .it’s already plaguing my wife’s every waking hour I suspect. Not only is she taking more paracetamol and ibuprofen (standard) for headaches (anger) but now she’s taking omeprozol I guess for her stomach (guilt / anxiety). She can listen to as many Christians songs as she likes in an attempt to make it go away... .but it ain’t.

Banging on the proverbial church door would just serve to put me right back on the Karpman triangle. I have to trust that gods work is being done. I’m told to be patient

James 5:8

8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Enabler

[formflier]

Again... what happens when good people are silent?

You don't have a unreasonable argument, it is unclear if it is working.  

Plus... lots of the reasons for inaction seem to be about "fear" of being labeled abusive, being in karpman,

Basically... .Enabler can't tell the truth of what he knows because... .(fill in the blank)

If sunlight is a good disinfectant... .let it shine.  If it's not, order up less sunshine than you have now?

I'm not suggesting it's easy.  I'm also not suggesting you hurry. 

What is the difference in staying out of karpman and enabling? 


FF

[empath]

Exactly, and I have not rescued her from that requirement, nor do I believe God, rational thought nor ‘doing it for the kids’ instructs me to. Secular society might believe I ‘should’ bolt, hand her a divorce and go and bed 20 women using Tinder... .but I’ve never bought into secular society very much and have always felt different, more sensible, less impulsive, less ‘all about me’. Secular society to me almost seems to be designed by borderlines for borderlines!

It's a "hard road" that we walk sometimes. So many people think that we have ample cause to cut our losses and "move on" - both outside the church and inside. I was asked today at church about where I was in the divorce process. My h hasn't filed anything - after moving out and saying that he was going to a year ago at the end of this month. It's not financially advantageous for me to do it, and truth be told, h knows that I "have biblical grounds" for a divorce and that he doesn't. He's confused because I'm nice and treat him well.

Having integrity, putting our faith into action is a huge part of our growth. I'm not sure any of us get there completely.

[Notwendy]

I can understand not wanting to report her to the church. My guess is that they already know...


But what is being the au pair so she can go out with OM?

Your passivity and agreeing to watch the kids could be construed as condoning it, or at least accepting it. "Ok honey go mess around with OM, I'll just watch the kids and tidy the house".

IMHO, if she wants to have an affair, why not let her arrange for child care?

I can understand not handing her an easy divorce, but it seems that built in childcare makes an easy affair. Why not let her at least be responsible for the details of her being away so much.

What will you say to your kids when they get old enough to figure this out? They will hear people talk, and see what they see.

 

[Enabler]

I can understand not wanting to report her to the church. My guess is that they already know...

I think this is my point. I have already told them and it's pretty darn obvious to both Churches, but at least one church see's fit to overlook it. In fact (posted about this at the time but can't find it), I spoke to the Bishop himself after he did a sermon about standing strong and doing the right thing at my church (Church 3), I said "what do I do when my W who is training to be a pastoral assistant yet continues to have an affair?". His reaction angered me... ."I've been doing this many years now, and sometimes you just have to walk away." He didn't enquire at all which one of his servants was 'having an affair' or diminishing the integrity of his church. I found the man a complete hypocrite and was startled how quickly he abandoned the values he preached so passionately at the front of the church not 5 minutes before.

But what is being the au pair so she can go out with OM?

Your passivity and agreeing to watch the kids could be construed as condoning it, or at least accepting it. "Ok honey go mess around with OM, I'll just watch the kids and tidy the house".

IMHO, if she wants to have an affair, why not let her arrange for child care?

I can understand not handing her an easy divorce, but it seems that built in childcare makes an easy affair. Why not let her at least be responsible for the details of her being away so much.

What will you say to your kids when they get old enough to figure this out? They will hear people talk, and see what they see.

I'm not sure it's quite that simple, I can see why it might look that way. She is under no illusion what I think about their relationship. There is only so many times one can say "this is wrong". Yes, I could arrange to go out every single time that she is planning on going to chruch or I suspect she is going out with OM, but she would just arrange a baby sitter and who would be penalised... .the kids. I don't condone this affair, she knows that, my silence is deafening and I certainly don't make it emotionally easy for her to continue. However, if when the kids are older they want to have that conversation with me, I will have absolutely NOTHING on my conscience, and you know what, I think they even know that now. I am already 110% accountable to them, they already see that I am there for them both physically and emotionally. I have emails coming out of my ears proving that I was very clear that this was wrong and not at all what I want, both on the D front and the OM front.

One day she will have to have this conversation with the kids, and at the gates of heaven... .but that's for her to concern herself with.

Enabler

[formflier]

What were the reasons that your T gave you for "it not being helpful" to use the word "abuse".

I haven't reread the posts... .going from memory. 

I guess what I'm interested in is your reasoning for having such a heavy investment and compare those with the reasons you T gave for this not being helpful.

FF

[Enabler]

T's reasons from shutting down the use of the word 'abusive' was because using the word 'abusive' is subjective vs a legal of socially accepted definition of abuse. My W feels abused that I ask her why she has bought a bunch of clothes or why our kids are having smoked salmon for breakfast, she finds all request for accountability and all appearance of judgement as abuse. This may well be other people's definition of abuse as well, as these people advocate complete freedom of choice. However, just because she (and some others) define her description as abuse, does not mean it is FACT.

What do you mean by heavy investment?

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

How simple conversation gets interpreted at "abuse" is crazy making.

Once aware of this, I can see it better. Once I suggested to my mother to cover a book case during construction work on her house. I meant it to save her the work of cleaning construction dust off all the books.

She started screaming " how dare you expect me to climb up and cover that bookcase" "I can't believe you expect me to do this". As if I was insisting an elderly woman do that. I meant ask the workmen to do this, but I didn't say it clearly and this is how she received it.

If it were me, I would give the other person the benefit of the doubt- knowing that they wouldn't ask this, and that they meant to be helpful. But if there is a victim mindset, then this becomes an "attack".

The other day my H and I were discussing some work on the house. He made some suggestions. I asked "can you do that" - meaning- is this something you can do or should I hire someone to do it. The response was " well I just can't snap my fingers and have it done right now". He assumed I was ordering him around.

I realize that through countless innocent and even well meaning conversations during a day, I become an "attacker" without even knowing it or intending it. It's crazy making as I am not that kind of person, yet I can be perceived that way.

The problem is- if someone believes we are abusive, I don't know if we can change that. I have learned to not react emotionally to it- from a place of hurt. To not fuel the fire by taking it personally - it's not about me. However, sometimes I do get irritated when it happens.

[formflier]

What do you mean by heavy investment?

Many(most) of your actions/inactions seem to reference either being called abusive... .or worrying about being called abusive and there is some amount of satisfaction/comfort with your current pathway because the label of abusive is not being used.

I take from this you enjoy the label not being used and worry that if you change and show what was "publicly available" on a family computer... that "some" would consider you "abusive" for doing that.

I would caution you from thinking that ANY of your actions have affected your wife's use of the word abuse.  Especially since YOU haven't been abusive.  Most likely the word is projection on her part.

FF

[empath]

I found the man a complete hypocrite and was startled how quickly he abandoned the values he preached so passionately at the front of the church not 5 minutes before.

I'm so sorry to hear about your interaction with the bishop. It can be hurtful when we go to those in spiritual authority expecting them to practice what they preach and discover the reality is different than our expectations. I've had some interactions with my h's bishop that were distressing to say the least.

One of the other accusations that "people" claimed about me was that I didn't support my h's ministry - because I wasn't attending church with him (some of those people knew that I had been told to worship somewhere else but needed to shift the blame to me).

she finds all request for accountability and all appearance of judgement as abuse

I've found it "interesting" that our spouses can continue their actions that go against marriage and be frowned upon by both the church and the society at large. My h hates accountability and judgment; that was one of his regular complaints about me.

[Enabler]

I've found it "interesting" that our spouses can continue their actions that go against marriage and be frowned upon by both the church and the society at large. My h hates accountability and judgment; that was one of his regular complaints about me.

I think it kinda depends on how you frame need vs want. If you are permanently in fight/flight mode everything is a need. Judging an act of survival (their perception) must feel a bit trite to them. Fortunately for me I have a 'normal' (whatever that is) set of needs which is pretty limited and I more than cover my basic needs, therefore I can place the rest in a wants bucket. Lucky old me!

FF, there are many things that I have not worried about being labelled with in the past. Annoying yes, misunderstood yes, but mainly put down to 'banter'. I didn't see any of these labels as influencing my life at all, nor did I see them influencing the things I hold dear to me. The view or perception of abuse IS impacting my life, and threatening the things I hold dear to me. My W has held a sub-conscious/conscious glitch in her wiring that says "I am a victim, I am being abused, I am a prisoner, my life is tough, I am worthless, I AM WRONG!". She has told quite a few people about this feeling over the years and to a greater or lesser extent people have believed her for a while. For the most part she keeps this internalised and it lays simmering under the surface impacting her reactions and self confidence in an acute way all the time but as long as you stay on her team it's kept to a simmer and generally projected out of the family system. Unfortunately she has found a number of people whom believe her narrative, they cannot comprehend that someone with as much going for her as she does could have a narrative such as above without someone (ME) 'putting it there', 'abusing her'. These people don't know her life history, nor do they see the complete picture... so, in essence she has found people willing and able (mainly due to their own bias) to VALIDATE THE INVALID, that I am abusive.

Historic cycle

W has delusional thought
W acts weird with Enabler
Enabler reacts, invalidates the invalid
W backs off but likely doesn't let go of the delusional thoughts
Delusional thoughts ebb away back into sub-consciousness

Current cycle

W has delusional thought
W acts weird with Enabler
W tells flying monkeys about delusional thoughts. Flying monkeys validate the invalid, rev her up and tell her that Enabler must be abusive, Enabler must be NPD, Enabler is abusing the kids, Enabler is trying to destroy her, Enabler needs to be cut out like cancer and Enabler is cruel and evil.
W snuggles up to one of the flying monkeys and falls in love with him.
W backs off, cuts out Enabler and plans for divorce egged on by flying monkeys. Looks to formalise her relationship with king flying monkey.
Enabler notices and reacts badly
W's delusional thoughts are validated and flying monkeys have the bit between their teeth now and keep the delusional thoughts alive and kicking. Rather than the delusional thought being allowed to ebb away they are constantly churned round and ruminated on, W is kept 'hot'.
Enabler stops reacting
Only staunch flying monkeys with selfish agendas continue to validate the invalid as there is no longer any spurious 'evidence' that Enabler is abusive.
W is left questioning the validity of her delusion... agenda filled flying monkeys try harder to keep delusion alive since they now thrive on the delusion for their own gains... enter 'Folie a deux'.

Hopefully you can see that any perception that Enabler is 'abusive' feeds directly into the cycle. Other than selfishly motivated flying monkeys who want to keep the delusion alive whom I can't do anything about, I can others that I am not as per delusion and thus reduce her supporters. I was a reactive-non, I had no idea what was going on and reacted badly to the dynamic. I 'get' what is going on now that I can fit the behaviour with BPD so no longer feel the need to react. I am now creating a vacuum of any spurious evidence that might be perceived by anyone as being abusive... why? Because external perception feeds into the decision making of my W in the form of validating the invalid. The validating of her delusion 'justifies' further negative and destructive behaviour to the relationship and feeds her delusional internal narrative that she is a victim and she is being abused... rather than the reality that SHE is abusive and she is controlling and she is making other peoples life tough.

Enabler

[formflier]

How would the new cycle look if "sunlight" were allowed to shine in...or "invited" to shine in.

Claims of abuse.

Clarifying moral standing/choices of those the church puts forward in a pastoral role.

Those are separate things although very closely related.

There certainly is a consistent concern that others (perhaps flying monkeys) will agree you are abusive...again..invite sunlight/allow sunlight.   (a bit different that "demand"...although I can  see scenarios playing out where "demand" might become appropriate.

Hmmm...perhaps as a substitute, what about letting the light clarify who is a flying monkey and who is an "honest broker".  (honest broker was the best I could think of..just getting going...intention is "not flying monkey")

Let's play this out.  Assume someone in church leadership "invests heavily" in being a flying monkey (actually supporting an affair..for instance).  Sunlight should "cure" that pretty quick...one way or another.

FF

[Enabler]

I have shone lights... flood lights... I've spoken to normal parishioners, I have spoken to the Vicar, I have spoken to the Bishop... I've unnecessarily spoken to God...

There was no interest in seeing what was there. People are fickle and religious leaders are not exempt from this as much as they might protest they are. I talk a lot about unicorns, you have to be in a place to believe in unicorns, you have to be in a place to see things in a different way, see through the illusion. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jordan-worth-body-language-expert-14031996  , maybe I didn't cry enough, maybe I was too filled with frustration and anger, maybe I didn't articulate it well enough... Maybe the Vicar was biased because her husband left her on the day of her ordination, maybe she projected herself onto my W. Maybe the Bishop wanted an easy life given his age and didn't want to rock the boat with something he didn't know much about... maybe he had a Sunday lunch in the oven and couldn't be bothered with the conversation... I don't know. 

How I believe this would look if I went nuclear:

W has inappropriate relationship with OM
Enabler writes letter of concern to head clergy and asks for the situation to be addressed
W and OM are forced to make themselves accountable talk to head clergy
W and OM sell idea that they are just good friends supporting each other through mutually tough time. Head clergy believe the story. They have a proven track record of covering up the extent of the relationship to all parties and 'sell' a reality to people. I believe I am reliant on their desire to tell the truth and be accountable at this point.
W and OM distance themselves from each other publicly.
W and OM change behaviour to maintain relationship in private, reinforced by their mutual 'us against the world', 'no one else understands our God given relationship'... as per historical form, moving from usual email address, to whatsapp, to new email address and whatsapp when it's thought that I'm asleep and phone calls when I am at work. The deceit would just increase.
W's delusional thoughts are validated that I am abusive and I want to destroy her. OM reinforces this and makes himself the only option, the only person who loves her, the only person who understands her, the only person who is not judging her as BAD.
W pushes on with the D and jumps into the arms of her God sent rescuer. They maybe change churches and leave behind a 'church that didn't get them or accept them' for a church that will.

My historic form of shining lights, telling people and ultimately SHAMING her is EXACTLY the form that hasn't worked... EVER. She has no desire to be accountable at the moment (likely never). I would just be hammering on a moral high ground drum and as far as she is concerned punishing her. My actions were validating the invalid.

Enabler

[empath]

FF, shining the light doesn't necessarily result in people changing their perceptions of a person in the church contexts, especially if that person is a leader in some respects. Whether it's large denominations or smaller churches, there is a blindness that people have to the truth when they have believed a lie. When someone is in leadership and doing a good work (or what is perceived as a good work), it is difficult for them to believe that the person could possibly be abusing another person. So, the credibility of the one raising the concerns is attacked.

[Notwendy]

I have a friend who reconciled after her H was cheating so I do not think it inevitably means a divorce but there are also many detrimental consequences to cheating besides divorce. It does real damage to a relationship and that needs to be reconciled.IMHO, even if your wife occasionally feels discomfort you are being too nice about it. She really has no consequences for her behavior in the short run. All of us could potentially find ourselves in tempting situations, and although there are moral and religious consequences, it is also the earthly ones that help us not give in to it. Taking away consequences may be enabling her to not be her best. Tough love has a place.   

[formflier]

There was no interest in seeing what was there.

Did you clarify this..or did you assume this?

Very important because this is not a matter of opinion..you have proof.  Generally..when there are a couple of witnesses and independent proof (your messages)...things shift.

The witnesses are you and the people in the other church that said stop it.  

This is NOT a he said she said.  If it was...my advice to you would be COMPLETELY different.

So...when the vicar took no action...what follow up did you have with the vicar?  What follow up did the vicar have with you?  How was this "closed out"?

FF

[formflier]

FF, shining the light doesn't necessarily result in people changing their perceptions of a person in the church contexts, 

Not my goal, although that would be nice. 

My goal would be for church leadership to clarify, most likely in writing, their perception of the people they put forth in a pastoral role (very different from someone sitting in the pews)

Now...once they realize they will be accountable for their opinion and their "vote" (to put a person forward) they may take a closer look, ask more questions, they may change their opinion or they may not.

FF

[formflier]

  Taking away normal and rationalconsequences may be  IS enabling her to not be her best. Tough love has a place.   

I think my proposed changes above clarify things a bit. 
 
A church that knowingly puts forth a person in a pastoral role while knowing that person is involved in an EXTRAMARITAL affair should not be surprised to be questioned about this...to be asked to clarify their position on the importance of marital vows...to be asked to clarify their position on the importance of the moral stature of their pastors.

We're not suggestion a "report" of a pastor that is a litterbug (although that would be shocking for a pastor to be blatant about).  There is verifiable evidence of an affair AND the appearance that "nobody wants to see it"...or a "deliberate indifference" to the truth.

I would encourage Enabler not to enable church leadership to comfortably "not see" what is plainly in front of them.  Furthermore...Enabler is the one who has the most standing (IMO) to raise this issue.

FF

[empath]

A church that knowingly puts forth a person in a pastoral role while knowing that person is involved in an EXTRAMARITAL affair should not be surprised to be questioned about this

They have questioned the person as well as the OM and seen fit to put the person forward having been told that they were "good friends" supporting one another.

In my case, I questioned, I gave evidence, I investigated. The clergy leadership used that as evidence that I was 'unforgiving' and not willing to work on things (they never said what those things were). They even did something that was outside legal bounds and would minimize it to me. I also know that they didn't even follow their own stated requirements for ordinands in my h's case because I was the person overseeing some of the requirements. If they had vetted him properly and followed their own requirements, he would not have been ordained.

There was an email that they sent that told me that I had given them enough information. H continued in his leadership position - they told him that he didn't need to do anything about our marriage. One of my last emails with the leadership was to confirm that they were telling him to "just wait."

So, the things that I could control were things within our home life; there were boundaries that I held. Separate sleeping/ no intimacy, finances, and churches (after his leadership told me to worship elsewhere). There was also a pathway back - that required him to do some very hard things.

My thoughts are that church people can do whatever they want; we aren't really in control of that, at least usually. We can control what we do as far as boundaries for ourselves.

Enabler, what are boundaries that you have or could put in place for your own health?

[formflier]

They have questioned the person as well as the OM and seen fit to put the person forward having been told that they were "good friends" supporting one another.
 

A different church (if I'm following the story right) told them to end the relationship.

A different church than the one that told them to stop put Enabler wife forward in a pastoral role. 

The churches are all under the same leadership, yet are unlikely to be talking much.

It doesn't seem to me the dots have been connected.

Enabler...do I have the churches and roles and "judgments" correct?

FF

[Enabler]

FF is correct. I do not know whether or not the relationship has been publicly aired to the church that promoted her to pastoral assistant. I suspect the church she did have that conversation with would not have promoted her given the discussions they had and what was going on in her life. I am slightly surprised that someone in the midst of a divorce process was deemed in a suitable situation to be going through pastoral assistants training anyway but that wasn't my decision nor one I was invited to contribute to.

I am not the ethical police for the Church of England. I presented the information to the church and made myself available to contribute to any discussion, they chose not to involve me in that discussion and chose not to consider any of my evidence. I am in no doubt whatsoever that they were very clear about my allegations yet decided to proceed/enable/support.

I know the term boundaries is batted around inappropriately on the boards so I will tread pretty carefully here. I had pretty unclear boundaries with regards to what was my business and what was not my business. I involved myself in areas which were not my business, some due to the relationship ("I'm going to hold you emotionally accountable for my business", so I better make sure I get involved to avoid that being a bad outcome for her/me), some due to me being nosey and naturally intrusive. I stomped around in her front garden and arguably other peoples front garden as well, mainly in an attempt to rescue her, and myself. The church that promoted her was not a church that I attended... not my business other than to deliver the information to the front gate. It may have been beneficial to me but I also had to respect both her choice to not disclose the relationship and the churches desire not to take onboard my testimony. Asserting to the church or my W that they 'should' be accountable to me is shaky ground. Why 'should' they be accountable to me (non-member)? I might add that by this point my W had already stated that she wanted to pursue a divorce meaning that at least as far as she was concerned she was no longer obligated towards me, she had in effect told me to get the hell out of her front garden, built a wall and told me to stay out of any of her business... appropriate boundaries NO, but boundary none the less and one which I had to respect. She was not breaking criminal law by having an affair, nor was she breaking criminal law by not speaking to the church about her affair. The church was not breaking criminal law by promoting her to pastoral assistant. Morally, ethically and from a scripture perspective there was a lot going wrong, BUT, if my wife chooses to do these things and the church chooses to ignore information that might lead to further questions then I should not be the judge, God can do that.

Maybe this makes me weak, maybe this makes me stupid and foolish? Maybe this means that I am too concerned whether or not the secular society would judge me as abusive for taking a religious and biblical stance (and at the time I very much doubted the existence of a God) to meddle in things which had nothing to do with me. For similar reasons I could not interfere with her Therapist relationship... it wasn't my business. My business was to sort myself out.

Enabler

[formflier]

I am not the ethical police for the Church of England. I presented the information to the church and made myself available to contribute to any discussion, they chose not to involve me in that discussion and chose not to consider any of my evidence. I am in no doubt whatsoever that they were very clear about my allegations yet decided to proceed/enable/support.
 

And what was their written reasoning to leave you out of it?  How did they "close things out with you?  Or was there silence?

My point is that clarity/sunlight is almost always a good thing for things like this.

Here is the thing...you aren't anyone's police...yet there are some things that if you saw happening, you would report to the police even though you don't have to.

We all have "a line" where we will NOT be silent.

I'm suggesting that your line is not calibrated right...and when you think you are "staying in your boundaries"...you are actually "enabling" by staying silent and/or accepting assumptions.

Assumptions rarely help people in things like this.  Clarity from all helps people/institutions think things through.

FF

[Enabler]

There was nothing in writing and no confirmation. I delivered the information to the front gate for them to decide whether or not they should do anything with it. In much the same way I might go to the police station to report a crime, I wouldn't likely expect to follow it up or gain further details... I might not even be entitled to further details.

Enabler

[formflier]

You may not...it would clarify things if they put that in writing.

Or...people may realize their values don't line up with what they have done and things may change.

FF

[Enabler]

Or clarify to them that I am controlling and incapable of staying out of my W's business.

You are making valid points but what do I ultimately want here, my wife to not be a pastoral assistant, my wife to stop having an inappropriate relationship, my wife to feel comfortable that I am not abusive and start working on fixing what seems like an unfixable relationship, my W to reach emotional baseline where she might have the clarity of mind to see the huge disparity between a fantasy world she has created and a reality she is living and to be in a position where she is able to make clear choices which align to her values?

I have sown a lot of seeds. Sometimes I believe that you have to stand back and watch them grow into trees, water them sparingly. Moral highground is fuel to conflict, it's shaming and has never been effective.

Enabler

[empath]

We do talk a lot about boundaries around here. I have found them helpful to keep my anger to a minimum while allowing for better interactions with my h.

Enabler, I'm wondering if there are boundaries that you have (attending a different church is a boundary, I suppose) or ones that you need?