Psychological Evaluation collateral interview for BPD spouse during divorce

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Hi All,

I am looking for assistance on evidence to provide in a psychological evaluation collateral interview for BPD spouse during divorce proceeding regarding child custody.

it's my belief without my input she will be given a clean bill of health based on other family members who will give her references saying there's nothing wrong with her and I'm the problem. Years ago we had evidence spent about $30,000 getting counseling and psychological evaluations and she threw out the evidence two months before she left and the psychiatrist retired and is not available. so this is my desperate last stand to try to get her and my daughter's help. as well as to get myself help to get my daughter's home in a stable environment.

I have a collateral interview and I would like to know what type of evidence I should be submitting regarding her either BPD, or Cluster B Hisotronic Personality Disorder. I can deduce these things from all the time we spent with psychiatric professionals during our initial divorce separation.

I need help on what I should provide will be appreciated.

Thank you!

[Aaron777]

Hi All,

I am looking for assistance on evidence to provide in a psychological evaluation collateral interview for BPD spouse during divorce proceeding regarding child custody.

it's my belief without my input she will be given a clean bill of health based on other family members who will give her references saying there's nothing wrong with her and I'm the problem. Years ago we had evidence spent about $30,000 getting counseling and psychological evaluations and she threw out the evidence two months before she left and the psychiatrist retired and is not available. so this is my desperate last stand to try to get her and my daughter's help. as well as to get myself help to get my daughter's home in a stable environment.

I have a collateral interview and I would like to know what type of evidence I should be submitting regarding her either BPD, or Cluster B Hisotronic Personality Disorder. I can deduce these things from all the time we spent with psychiatric professionals during our initial divorce separation.

I need help on what I should provide will be appreciated.

Thank you!

[flourdust]

You can provide any medical records you have, as well as your own personal narrative. However, generally a diagnostic label is not sufficient to influence a custody decision. If you have documentation on a history (particularly recent history) of your wife's behaviors that negatively impacted her ability to care for your kid(s), that will be more persuasive.

[Aaron777]

To be clear I'm not trying to influence a custody decision I'm trying to get her help. She has horrible temper anger and she hurts our daughters and she did splits. She would benefit substantially from DBT and some anger management therapy. I would hope she could remiss. I truly believe she will get help if she is presented with the facts and not the virtual reality but she has created in her own mind to present to the world as a truth which is a lie. More so than anything I don't want my youngest daughter following down her footsteps and I'm concerned she will based on the current situation, as she has recreated her childhood and her family life in her personal life and caused instability for my whole family she needs help.

To be clear she will be ordered to get therapy if she gets the label and that means it will benefit my daughters myself, and her more than anybody. She will finally be able to have a sense of self and her own personality, and not feel like an empty vessel who doesn't know who she is. I'll tell you who she is she's a woman of God. Who is lost seeking validation from others, and borrowing their personalities while seeking to fill a void on her inside, but only she can personally validate she just doesn't know it.

I've literally heard this thing about a label a million times over the last dozen+ years and frankly it did no good for our family or for my wife who needed help tremendously. I get that BPD sufferers will run away from a label, and frankly I don't label but under the circumstances when legal matters are happening and splitting episodes, I'll need a cover for the rest of my life from false accusations that happen every few years when she splits on me and I go black. Whether we're divorced or married we will both be parents to our daughters.

I appreciate the input. It would be nice if you could go a little easier on new folks who are seeking help.

Thanks

[zachira]

It is very important to keep a chronological diary of all the interactions between you and your BPD spouse, especially interactions involving the children. Emails can serve as documentation. This is what is viewed as reliable evidence. Talking about things that have happened in the past without documentation can be viewed as made-up. The book "Splitting" describes in detail how spouses with BPD and/or NPD make up lies that are believed by the Court to get custody and damage their soon to be ex spouse.

[worriedStepmom]

Your wife can be forced to get therapy, but that does not meant that it will do any good if she is not ready and willing to make changes.  BPD is an ego-syntonic disorder - that means that the person believes their behaviors are right and good (aligned with their ego), and they do not recognize that their behaviors are problematic.  My H's uBPDxW has literally asked him "why does your reality get to be the 'right' one?"

When presented with evidence that 'proves' they have a disorder, they will often disregard it.  This is why your wife threw away your previous paperwork.  This is why many BPD sufferers quit therapy and why they abandon friends and family who try to get them to change.  In their mind, the problem is everyone else.

It is admirable that you want to help her.  It is also unrealistic to think that your actions will make much difference in her behavior.  The courts for the most part don't try to change people - they work with parents where they are.

This means that your primary job is to document behaviors that impact your children.  If the behaviors are severe enough, the courts may impose penalties - e.g., less parenting time for mom.  If an authority tells your wife that she can't do X, Y, or Z behavior anymore because it's bad for the kids, she may follow that.  Or she may not - and then further consequences might be placed on her.

[worriedStepmom]

Whether we're divorced or married we will both be parents to our daughters.

This is definitely the right mindset!  Too many people want to take revenge.  Keep this front and center in your negotiations, and the courts will (eventually) see that you are the reasonable parent.

This has also been very very important for my stepdaughter (now 11).  My h and I have never said anything negative about her mom to her (her mom cannot say the same).  Now that SD is older and in therapy, we also stress to her that it isn't her job to fix her mom.  We all feel compassion for her mom, and we can all feel sad that she is in so much mental pain, but we can't fix it for her.  Accepting this face has been very, very freeing for SD and has helped her to free herself of the enmeshment.  I highly recommend therapy for your girls, if they aren't already seeing a therapist.

[GaGrl]

In most "true" psychological assessments (in other words, more than a surface interview), the professional will use an assessment tool such as the MMPI. This instrument has internal checks to determine if the person taking the test is either trying g to "fool" the test or attempting to project his/her best/false image.

Do you know if your wife's assessor is using this tool, or something similar? Can you ask?

Are you also having an assessment done?

[Aaron777]

Thanks,

Yes, I'm having two evals from the first two judge required psychiatrists.

I will ask about the tool thanks for suggestion.

Yes, an eval is ordered but it takes forever.

[livednlearned]

I had a court-ordered psych eval for my ex but didn't specify what kind of eval.

My ex saw a forensic psychiatrist (I selected three, he picked one to do the eval) but it was four sessions in talk interviews and while it produced a 12-page report, it did not result in a diagnosis. The last paragraph said something vague like, "A personality disorder cannot be ruled out and it is recommended that Mr. LnL undergo additional testing."

Eventually, a second court-ordered evaluation was ordered that was more specific based on advice given here. I wanted a dx, so my L filed a motion for an MMPI-2, administered by someone trained to both administer and analyze the results. Ex decided he would rather have no custody than undergo an evaluation that resulted in a dx so it never happened.

I believe there is a specific assessment for a personality disorder tho unfortunately I cannot remember what it's called. The MMPI-2 will assess other types of issues.

I'm not familiar with what a collateral interview is. Is it part of a custody evaluation?

[Aaron777]

Google says this for a Collateral interview:
"At baseline, the collateral informant was usually a parent (in order to provide rich background information regarding the study participant) A follow-up, the collateral informant was usually a peer (in order to provide more accurate information about deviant behavior)"

[Aaron777]

It's my belief it would help my wife. If you ever read about staff splitting, it was the same with my wife in regards to reality being separated from her emotional reality.

I think on a semi conscience level she is aware of what she's doing, and when she is corrected by a group who stay together in what they're saying and don't split, she recognizes her behavior and doesn't do it again and learns from her mistakes.

In my case she has my family and friends as negative advocates, and she feeds off of their approval.

I'm saying she's a bit different from the BPD's I've read about in some regards. She isn't a cutter, she is kind (unless she is splitting you;)

ultimately I know inside she wants to get better and she does everything she can to be a better person. Unfortunately that doesn't help when her BPD traits are validated by my Mother, i.e. her elder. I suspect her emotional facts, come from growing up in India, and regardless of logic, being told by her parents something that doesn't jive with facts was her reality. I'm totally speculating because I don't honestly know, but she exhibits projecting, splitting, has a horrible temper, and us stubborn.

I know I bring up the bad things but there are a lot of good things unfortunately I'm not driven right now why those while being under attack in a splitting episode while my children are suffering.

Your wife can be forced to get therapy, but that does not meant that it will do any good if she is not ready and willing to make changes.  BPD is an ego-syntonic disorder - that means that the person believes their behaviors are right and good (aligned with their ego), and they do not recognize that their behaviors are problematic.  My H's uBPDxW has literally asked him "why does your reality get to be the 'right' one?"

When presented with evidence that 'proves' they have a disorder, they will often disregard it.  This is why your wife threw away your previous paperwork.  This is why many BPD sufferers quit therapy and why they abandon friends and family who try to get them to change.  In their mind, the problem is everyone else.

It is admirable that you want to help her.  It is also unrealistic to think that your actions will make much difference in her behavior.  The courts for the most part don't try to change people - they work with parents where they are.

This means that your primary job is to document behaviors that impact your children.  If the behaviors are severe enough, the courts may impose penalties - e.g., less parenting time for mom.  If an authority tells your wife that she can't do X, Y, or Z behavior anymore because it's bad for the kids, she may follow that.  Or she may not - and then further consequences might be placed on her.

[Aaron777]

Has anybody here experienced a psychologist or psychiatrist who keeps probing on don't you take any responsibility for these things? When in your mind after years of therapy it's not you it's them. that's what my BPD wife always did was try to blame me and I'm wondering why a psychiatrist or psychologist would go down that rabbit hole knowing that most spouses of people with BPD are constantly being blamed. it seems weird that a psychologist or a psychiatrist would join in the blame game.

Is that a sign that the mental health professional has become a negative advocate or is it a sign that they think im a narcissist? I am more than happy to accept responsibility for things but I don't accept responsibility for things I didn't do especially when there's legal things, and especially when they are distorted perceptions of reality with grains of Truth but are not the truth.

[ForeverDad]

I was in and out of court for 8 years, from late 2005 to the end of 2013.  Separation with a family court temp order totally in mother's favor (though I had my own temp order from municipal court where I was protected while my spouse faced Threat of DV charge); then I filed for divorce, second family court temp order was same as the first; Final Decree two years later (thank you most excellent Custody Evaluator who was an expert child psychologist) had me moved up to Shared Parenting and equal parenting time; still too entitled so I went back 1.5 years for Custody and majority time but I only got custody; still too entitled and disparaging me so I went back again for 1.5 years for majority time and this time I got it.  Haven't been back to court since and my son ages out as an adult in less than a year.

My point is that you use the best time-tested strategies - whatever works - until the custody and parenting is at least somewhat manageable long term.  Not all of us managed to get custody or even majority time.  But when facing an entitled and sabotaging spouse or ex whose *PD causes them to live in their own self-centered perceptions and erratic moods, you do what you can to limit the chaos and obstructions.  For the kids' welfare and futures.

As worriedStepmom and others noted, the goal of "I want my ex to get better and behave better" is a dream, a hope, a wish.  We all know that has a small chance of happening.  Still, okay to have that goal but only if you balance that with the recognition you may never achieve that goal!  If that is all you're preparing for, then you are likely to walk out with less than you could attain.  A more appropriate additional goal would be to make a priority of securing your children's futures (and your own too as parent) for the years ahead.

What works best?

Courts deal with a few starting expectations that you need to recognize.  Courts "hope" the conflict will lessen once the parents get past the tensions of the divorce and Move On with their post-marriage lives.  Sadly, that doesn't work in intractable *PD (acting-out... generally Borderline, Narcissistic, Antisocial, Histrionic & Paranoid PD) cases.  But court will still try, often for years, to expect 'normal' behaviors before it finally stops letting the misbehaving parent avoid consequences.

Also, make sure the court is always alerted whenever you are at hearings or trials that you are willing to step forward and be the responsible and stable parent with substantive parenting authority.  If possible you and your lawyer can seek Decision Making or Tie Breaker status if court is reluctant to grant sole custody or majority time.

Courts also aren't interested in obtaining a diagnosis, and sometimes even despite a diagnosis.  That's because a diagnosis alone does not specify how impacted that parent's parenting would be.  In other words, there would have to be "actionable" evidence supporting the court to veer from its common "default preference to mother" policies.  (That's why the court needs to always be aware you are ready to step forward, that you're not the stereotype dad who walks away and sees the kids only sometimes while paying child support.)  So your task is to have documentation of your spouse's problematic parenting and your solid parenting.  If you haven't started already, keep a log, calendar or diary of the problem incidents, with details such as date, time, location, incident, witnesses, etc.  Claims such as "he always..." or "she always..." can too easily be considered too vague and be ignored as hearsay.

Maybe it would help you to understand the court's perspective.  They're there to unwind the marriage, perhaps even to ensure there isn't abuse going on.  "Fixing" a parent is low, if at all, on their list of priorities.  They deal with people as they are.  You would do well to include that perspective in your strategies and goals, otherwise you're likely to be disappointed in what you expect of the system.

As for the retired evaluator, they generally leave their records with another practice in case the records need to be accessed.  Can you find out whether the evaluator did that and where the records are now?

[GaGrl]

As you document, try to capture quotes as accurately as possible --

At the exchange on Sunday evening t at 6:00 PM in the driveway at Ex's residence on XYZ Lane, Ex said, "Blah, Blah, Blah ...father is so terrible...blah, blah, ruining child's life...blah, blah."

[livednlearned]

Is that a sign that the mental health professional has become a negative advocate or is it a sign that they think im a narcissist?

What things do they want you to take responsibility for?