epiphany about BPD aggression

[livednlearned]

I realized something about SD22 and maybe BPD in general sitting in front of me all these years.

SD22 is an aggressive victim.

She is both.

She is an aggressive personality.

And she is a victim.

Those two things elicit such different responses in me and I feel emotional whiplash when I'm around her.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

That is a great insight, LivedandLearned The same person can be both victim and aggressor in many situations and that is particularly true with people with BPD. You say you have very different reactions to these two sides of the coin, so to speak. Can you say more? How do you feel about the victim? How do you feel about the aggressor? How does it feel to know they are one in the same?

[wendydarling]

Oh LNL your epiphany interests me too and Faith asks great questions. The descriptions you use to describe SD22 reminds me of the Karpman triangle...

[livednlearned]

How do you feel about the victim? How do you feel about the aggressor? How does it feel to know they are one in the same?

When she is in victim mode, I feel compassion and probably something that is obligation (to provide care). Then when she's aggressive, I feel like I have to run and hide or fight back, although in the last five years I've learned to tap into mindfulness so I can get sorted out before responding to her. Sometimes she switches from victim to aggressor in an instant and I feel ... repulsed I guess. Or repelled. When she feels I have retreated or am not available, she turns into a child and I feel manipulated.

H only sees the victim side, whereas I see both. She is covertly aggressive and I am more likely to trust my instincts when my defenses are activated, so I sense aggression more.

wendydarling, that's really insightful about the Karpman triangle! I requested that H not send messages to me from SD22 anymore, and you made me realize that it was probably triangulation that was driving that train. I feel like I learn things and then I have to relearn them over and over 

I kept feeling like a sucker with SD22. I would do things out of compassion and then feel a shiv in my back. I think I've been better with validation and empathy than with boundaries and being able to skillfully respond to covert aggression. 

[wendydarling]

That's hard LnL! covert aggression... I can imagine dealing with a covertly aggressive person needs heighten gut-level sensitivity to the use of tactics to avoid being taken in by them. Are there tactics you recognise?

[livednlearned]

Are there tactics you recognise?

It's a good question, wendydarling. I still have a lot of learning to do and I'm not sure I can identify the tactics exactly.

I'm more aware that her goal is "SD22 must win, LnL must lose." It can be over insignificant things and bigger things, the point is always to win, to be in a one-up position. There is no resting, it is constant. That's the difference that I now acknowledge. Just because her aggression is covert doesn't mean it isn't there.

Because she is a quiet BPD, I lost sight of the fighting she does as second if not first nature.

[wendydarling]

Kind of makes sense with a quiet BPD. 

I still have a lot of learning to do and I'm not sure I can identify the tactics exactly.

Early days, I can't recall coming across any covert aggression conversations here and wonder what sound literature is available.

I'm more aware that her goal is "SD22 must win, LnL must lose."

This reminds me of some school yard type of behaviour, one-up. Question is can this be brought to a win-win with covert aggression...feels very complex. 

How often does SD22 visit?

[livednlearned]

SD22 visits 2-3 times a month, sometimes less depending on her schedule. We live ~6 hours away, her BF lives 3 hours so they meet here.

Any break in her college studies, she lives with us, anywhere from 4 days to all summer. She graduates in May and then has the summer to figure out where she will work (she's becoming a special ed teacher). SD25, her sister, will be living here finishing an intense graduate program with board exams.

I'm trying to figure out what happens to me when she visits. I think I'm not as good at setting limits as I would like to be and am not as good at redirecting her aggression toward me.

[wendydarling]

You'll have a full house during the summer then 

I'm trying to figure out what happens to me when she visits. I think I'm not as good at setting limits as I would like to be and am not as good at redirecting her aggression toward me.

I think how Only Human describes the detail of what happens with her DD is a good way to gain understanding what happens to us, the dynamics, how we feel, how we might deal with an event, situation differently etc. I read in another thread you asked SD22 to write any issues she has with you. How's that going?

WDx

[Lollypop]

Hi LnL

I missed this thread and have to say I find it really interesting.

I’m wondering if our experiential learning that comes with dealing with our kids has heightened our sensitivity. For me, I believe it has. Do you think your epiphany stems from your understanding of your D or more from a greater sense of your own feelings and reactions?

We deal with conflicted emotions all the time in our daily life. We are able to negotiate them and adjust. Even when there are unexpected happenings. Let’s take heart from this!

You can find a way I’m sure if it. I think this is about positioning oneself in the relationship. We do not stand as separate entities mother/child - we are interconnected.

Just like here on the forum. We make ourselves vulnerable, we share, like a complex root system we support one another. I think that sometimes we view our BPD  as “other” - theyre the one with the problem and this automatically suggests separateness. We are not separate, we are a community who has to push through difference, negotiating fairly and caringly.

I find I’m unable to cope emotionally with a studio partner who is passive aggressive. This is the generic term we use isn’t it - in my old-fashioned way I’d call her an utter bxtch.  I’ve been so surprised at how I react and how quickly it flares up. It made me realise I’ve more work to do. It makes me wonder if I’m passive-aggressive and that’s why I react - I see myself in her (my old self). If true then I’m a passive aggressive who would normally avoid confrontation but has now learnt how to actively confront others with limits. I know that feeling of whiplash. How can we both find the words to respond to them in a better way?  I’d appreciate some help here too. What do we say to be clear that we find their behaviour confusing?

Passive is not the same as Victim.

Human connection is based on vulnerability. Victim suggests “it’s not my fault”. Vulnerability says to me “I’ve been through so much and I find it hard to cope. [please listen, understand me, stand with me so I’m not alone].

But the bottom line is that me and my studio partner just don’t like one another.

Could I improve the situation? Yes, by attempting a better core relationship but, you know, I sensed I could never trust her. I emotionally detached and we cohabit the shared  space respectfully.

How can one connect in these kinds of situations?  I’m throwing in the idea of shifting towards more collaborative thinking. Away from the win win as an individual, but win win together. I understand this as you becoming vulnerable with strength. It’s complex and I don’t understand the theory, I’m using my gut instinct based on my experience.

Sorry I’m rambling a bit. I’ve succeeded so far with my son with creating a sense of togetherness; I had to stop judging and accept who he is. Rather than me noting our differences, I noted our commonalities.  I softened, he softened.

not as good at redirecting her aggression toward me.

Oh me too!  Not with my son who directs his aggression/frustration elsewhere these days. But with people I have to work with.  I’d love a stock answer, a holding statement even. Thoughts?

Does any of this resonate?  I’d be so interested to hear views.

LP

[livednlearned]

Do you think your epiphany stems from your understanding of your D or more from a greater sense of your own feelings and reactions?

A shift happened in our dynamic and I was puzzled. I feel relatively skillful in my marriage, in our blended family dynamic (SD22, SD25, SS19), and as a mom to a child on the spectrum, S17. We have a complicated family with a lot of moving pieces and for the most part, and thanks to this community and a boatload of therapy   we are rowing forward and making a lot of progress. I'm proud of us  

And then, something was changing and I began to feel old feelings (dysfunctional childhood, marriage/divorce with uBPD ex), and I couldn't figure out what was no longer working.

We do not stand as separate entities mother/child - we are interconnected.

I am interconnected in the family dynamic, although the step parent role does change things. I have perhaps above average compassion and understanding for non-typical kids because of my own child's differences (who also has a uBPD dx bipolar father).

I think that sometimes we view our BPD  as “other” - theyre the one with the problem and this automatically suggests separateness.

That's part of what began to puzzle me. I have compassion for SD22 and felt skillful and then something shifted that wasn't making sense. Understanding how her aggression works and why it's in play has helped me shorten the distance between us because now I see what's driving it.

She is fighting for a better position in the family, especially to be number #1 at all times with her dad. Her needs are greater, so her fight is more desperate. Her desperation and lack of skill naturally makes her more aggressive. Because it would not be tolerated (family norms) to be openly aggressive, her aggression is indirect. She is quiet BPD and I am close to the other kids so she has to work within those constraints. I look at dialectical thinking guidance: two seemingly opposite things can both be true at the same time. SD22 appreciates me as a person and I am also a threat to her dependence on H. I have to be eliminated and preserved simultaneously.

How can we both find the words to respond to them in a better way?  I’d appreciate some help here too. What do we say to be clear that we find their behaviour confusing?

I found five ways that H and I worked out and are probably specific to our situation. The insidious dynamic that I felt growing has to do with my issues and H's together in how we emotionally react to things. My dynamic is activated when someone (H) is not only not protecting me, but actively asking me to not protect myself. H's dynamic is activated when he feels he's going above and beyond and still it's not good enough. So we went through specifics and figured out solutions. She was using his inability to say no to her as leverage and using it to control and be indirectly aggressive toward other people including me.

We simply eliminated loopholes, things H and I were doing that were giving her an outlet for aggression.

I softened, he softened.

I had this with SD22 too, in the beginning. Then it was, "I softened, she hardened." That's what I've been trying to better understand. Being able to pinpoint specific loopholes for the aggression to take root makes it easier for me to soften so that she can hopefully get back to that. Or at least harden less. Even hold steady would be ok!

I think we are saying the same thing, LP? I am not necessarily judging SD22 for being aggressive altho in no way do I enjoy it. She has much to fight for since she has so little to hang onto, and what is there is shaky at best. I have a lot of compassion for that, mostly because I am in a good place in my own growth, there is a lot of me leftover when I am done meeting my own needs.    It does not feel like two grown woman competing for the love of one man, it feels like H and I working as partners to help SD22 feel more safe, and eliminating shared behaviors that are loopholes for aggression to take root.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi LnL

Thank you so much for explaining and there’s things I can take from your approach.

mostly because I am in a good place in my own growth,

I would like to say the same but there’s still work for me to do. Self care is still a biggy for me also. I have 4 more weeks then I can start to get some life back. Full time education takes it out of you it really does. Looking forwards, as I’m sure your daughter is doing right now - I hope her new direction shifts the dynamics more positively. You give us a good lesson LnL, great communication is something we can build up from. I totally agree with you about our BPD kids having something to hold onto, they grasp at times.

We are saying the same thing!

LP

[Mirsa]

I can relate to feeling as though someone is playing a covert aggression role.  It's hard to wrap your brain around cognitively, but I sure remember being on the receiving end of it.  It feels like she is acting like a victim, (oh poor me because of x, y, and z) and using that as an excuse to be extremely intense/angry/manipulative/demanding.  It's the sense of a dramitode (my word for one of her drama-fueled episodes) being enacted and her sense of it being a legitimate excuse for inappropriate behavior on her part:  as though her misbehavior is justified because of her victimhood. If she just acts outraged enough while being a complete jerk, then perhaps she will gain the sympathy of most of her audience. 

Sadly, her father, (her current caretaker as I relievedly relinquished the role when she pushed me off my pedestal last fall), fully supports this attitude and belief system in her.  I wonder if he will be bewildered when he becomes her target (inevitable...no one has ever escaped her wrath).   

Boy, I'm so glad to be beyond her reach.

[livednlearned]

This epiphany sure makes me realize how our family is a system.

SD22 is like water that gets into everything. H and I can hold some water, but not a geyser full that comes flooding in on a regular basis. H is willing to hold more than he can handle. I am clear about how much I can hold, and learning ways to be waterproof. When H feels flooded he tends to let the overflow spill into my tank.

I kept feeling like somehow I was ending up with too much water, not sure how it was getting in...

One of the things I said to H is that SD22 will be shadowy aggressive, H isn't aware, and then H will (innocently?) suggest in front of SD22 that she and I do something together while he's at work (he works weekends a bunch).

We were able to agree that if I feel SD22 has been aggressive, I am not going to be ready to spend time with her. That he is welcome to make suggestions to alleviate his anxiety about SD22 having nothing to do and I have every right to say no.

Saying no to SD22 (even me saying no) is hard for H so he will not likely make suggestions if he knows I am going to say no.

It sounds like such a small thing but there's this equilibrium in our family and even if I make a small change it can have big repercussions.

Understanding that the aggression can be indirect and covert has made it easier for me to size up our interactions and recognize in what ways we are responsible for our own behavior. Hopefully this leads to H and I working together as a team. Supporting SD22 without allowing her aggression to find an outlet that can be easily shut.