Part 2: At the hospital now

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Mod Note:  this thread is a continuation of     https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336959.0

Well done Stolencrumbs, this certainly sounds like it sucks for everyone, hospitals are soul destroying places for most people but even more so when you're not seeing any sign of treatment.

Her treatment needs are not for you to determine, please remember that for you own conscience. You are not trained and not professionally competent to determine what is in her best interests and what isn't.

How do you respond to her attempts to get you to rescue her?

Guys, what would the advisable response be in this interaction to maintain neutrality?

Enabler

My response was to be sympathetic to how much it sucks right now. That wasn't hard, because I do think it sucks, and I can easily imagine how bad it is for her. I tried to share in the frustration of things moving so slow. I affirmed that it was important for her to be at home, to do the few things she enjoys, to be in the garden, with the dogs, etc. I assured her I was taking care of all of that, and that it'd all be here when she did get home. I expressed skepticism that I had the power to alter the process at this point, but said that I thought we needed to let the process play out, and let people at the psych hospital help us develop a plan and figure out what we need to be doing. That was roughly my end of the conversation.  

[stolencrumbs]

Mod Note:  this thread is a continuation of     https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336959.0

Well done Stolencrumbs, this certainly sounds like it sucks for everyone, hospitals are soul destroying places for most people but even more so when you're not seeing any sign of treatment.

Her treatment needs are not for you to determine, please remember that for you own conscience. You are not trained and not professionally competent to determine what is in her best interests and what isn't.

How do you respond to her attempts to get you to rescue her?

Guys, what would the advisable response be in this interaction to maintain neutrality?

Enabler

My response was to be sympathetic to how much it sucks right now. That wasn't hard, because I do think it sucks, and I can easily imagine how bad it is for her. I tried to share in the frustration of things moving so slow. I affirmed that it was important for her to be at home, to do the few things she enjoys, to be in the garden, with the dogs, etc. I assured her I was taking care of all of that, and that it'd all be here when she did get home. I expressed skepticism that I had the power to alter the process at this point, but said that I thought we needed to let the process play out, and let people at the psych hospital help us develop a plan and figure out what we need to be doing. That was roughly my end of the conversation.  

[Enabler]

That to me sounds like a good response, with exception that it was important for her to be at home. It was important for someone to be at home to take care of important things, but not necessarily important for HER to be at home.

I am sure others have a view here.

Are you eating and sleeping?

Enabler

[stolencrumbs]

That to me sounds like a good response, with exception that it was important for her to be at home. It was important for someone to be at home to take care of important things, but not necessarily important for HER to be at home.

I am sure others have a view here.

Are you eating and sleeping?

Enabler

I slept okay. I have the day off from all of my jobs. Still working on the eating thing. I'll get some lunch in a bit.

[Gemsforeyes]

SC-
I agree with Enabler, that in due time she’ll be well enough to be home...but you’re sorry, not right now.  You’ll make sure things are taken care of there so she can rest easy over things at home.

It also hit me that you may be using the word “we” where the word “you” may be more appropriate.  I get that you’re a couple, but you did NOT engage in the disordered behavior, she did.  The treatment plan is for her.  When you speak to her, it seems you’re using the “we” to lighten the blow.  Maybe in your “no more secrets” quest, try that honesty with yourself and her.

You may not get a great reaction at first, but things need to change here.  For both of you.

Am I over-reacting?  Others’ opinions?  Stay strong, I know this is so so difficult for you.

Gemsforeyes

[Red5]

stolencrumbs,

Reading down trough your thread, man, I'm so so sorry your having to deal with this, but you did the right thing, by calling 9/11.

What your wife did was dangerous, and now that she is in the hands of the hospital personnel, this is what needed to happen.

I also experienced multiple suicidal attempts, as well gestures in my first marriage.

I know its very tempting to "take the heat off"… but don't do it, she need's help right now, and she is going to get it... ie' consequences of her overt actions.

Lots of great advice here, most important is the self care… vital that you maintain your head, and physical condition, rest and nourishment.

You hang in there now, keep posting, and please know that you are in all of our thoughts and prayers.

Kind Regards, Red5

[Cat Familiar]

I know its very tempting to "take the heat off" … but don't do it, she need's help right now, and she is going to get it... ie' consequences of her overt actions.

Wise words from Red5.

Being discomfited now is a minor inconvenience compared to the distress she has caused others, primarily you, but should she have succeeded in her arson attempts, untold others would have been impacted.

She needs to make the connection in her mind that if she does these sorts of behaviors, the consequences will not be ones of her choosing, ergo...

[babyducks]

She is threatening you again.    She does that a lot.  Please don't buy into it.

Your response needs to be firm, fair and consistent.   Once there is a medical plan in place for her and the house to be safe,  she can return home.

Resist the urge to over empathize.   Yes.  The process sucks.    It's difficult for everyone.   She is going to need to hear unpleasant truths, including the word No,  if things are going to change.

Hospitals do suck the life out of you.  They are difficult and draining places.   No matter if it is Physical or mental health issues you have to work to get better.    She is not so special that she gets unusual treatment.

Make sure you eat something nutritionally dense.  You are burning extra calories with the stress you are under.

[Enabler]

It also hit me that you may be using the word “we” where the word “you” may be more appropriate.  I get that you’re a couple, but you did NOT engage in the disordered behavior, she did.  The treatment plan is for her.  When you speak to her, it seems you’re using the “we” to lighten the blow.  Maybe in your “no more secrets” quest, try that honesty with yourself and her.

You may not get a great reaction at first, but things need to change here.  For both of you.

I don't know how you relay to her a message that you are supporting her through this process, but you can't do the process for her as it's nothing to do with you. Is it the same as someone committing to a sky dive, you can never be there with them but you can sure as heck be standing waiting at the landing zone, hoping and praying for their safety throughout. What would you say if your wife was scared of giving birth? A man can't do the pushing but he can hold hands, be supportive, take a shouting at periodically, be physically and mentally present. It is a WE thing if YOU and HER decide it is, but it's her journey, you're strictly there to support her if you both choose to.

Enabler 

[stolencrumbs]

I agree about using "we." I guess it's force of habit. I don't think she was paying attention to subtleties in the conversation, but I'll think about how to say things differently.

She just called again. They are moving her to the psych hospital, so that's good. This time she apologized and asked if we could just start over and be kind to each other. It was a very different tone. She asked me to give her a chance. She's never asked that before. I'm skeptical, to say the least. It just feels like a new form of manipulation.

I'm worried about what happens when she gets out. I'm on the conflicted board for a reason, I guess. I think I've moved a lot towards being less conflicted, but it's in the direction of not wanting to be in this relationship at all. I don't want to get immediately pulled back to where I was because she's been in the hospital and comes out being nice to me. But I'm going to feel pretty guilty if I don't do that.

[formflier]

Hopefully when she gets in the psych hospital you can relay your thoughts and fears to her care team.  I hope the treat her and treat "the family".  Since a strong family will give her the best chance at recovery.

You may want to consider some word tracts such as "let's focus on your treatment now"..."let's focus on what your psychiatrist thinks is best for your recovery"...to help keep the focus there, rather than "being kind" to each other.

Hang in there

Best,

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear SC-
Please ask for what you need.  If that’s extra time away from work to sort things out in your head and have peace in your home, then ask for that. 

If that’s extra time with a therapist to hear yourself verbalize thoughts, then ask for that. 

And definitely, speak honestly to her psyche team about what’s taken place over the last X number of months - ALL of the dysregulation.  And your response to it.  You need and deserve this honesty.

And we will do our best to stand by you here.  Please be assured.  You have ALWAYS shown kindness to her.  Always...and under some incredibly heart wrenching circumstances.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[stolencrumbs]

Hopefully when she gets in the psych hospital you can relay your thoughts and fears to her care team.  I hope the treat her and treat "the family".  Since a strong family will give her the best chance at recovery.

You may want to consider some word tracts such as "let's focus on your treatment now"..."let's focus on what your psychiatrist thinks is best for your recovery"...to help keep the focus there, rather than "being kind" to each other.

Hang in there

Best,

FF

That’s the tact I used in the phone conversation. Can’t say it went over well, but that’s the direction I went. Trying to make sure that this is going to be a catalyst for change in one direction or another.

And Gemsforeyes, thank you! Always is probably too strong, but I do have a hard time not getting sucked into her view of me.

[Notwendy]

I would be skeptical about sudden changes to "nice" and promises when she wants to "get out" of this situation. Real change is possible but it takes time and effort. It isn't instant.

Sometimes what we want isn't what is best for us. This is uncomfortable for her, yet here is where she is getting the help she needs.

Unfortunately and not to be pessimistic, I have seen my own BPD mother suddenly act sane and together to get herself out of these types of situations. I would urge her caregivers also to not take these behaviors as a sign of real change while she may be motivated to avoid the discomfort of where she is. From your posts, it appears she truly needs the help they can offer her.

[Gemsforeyes]

You know SC, there’s a tendency for many of us to be so completely forgiving that we actually block the actions from our consciousness.  I do that, or DID that.  One advantage you have is evidence here, almost time-stamped evidence, in your postings of her destructive behaviors.

I encourage you to print out your postings... not to use against her per se, but to shine light on the past behaviors that need to be addressed and healed.  There is no path toward a peaceful future without addressing these behaviors and how destructive and dangerous they are.  This is vital regardless of your decision to stay or leave in the future.

Please get some good food and rest with your dogs tonight.  Deep breathing...  where is her family?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Enabler]

Great minds think alike... don’t try and dumb down the rawness of what you have written as well. That’s how it felt at the time, that’s how it was.

[AskingWhy]

I would be skeptical about sudden changes to "nice" and promises when she wants to "get out" of this situation. Real change is possible but it takes time and effort. It isn't instant.

This is so well worded, Notwendy.

SC, pwBPD (and also NPD) can appear "sane" when they want to manipulate others.

Go cautiously.  Support your W.  It is good (sadly) she reached the tipping point where she is on the psych hospital's radar, and you can consult with them in the even she starts to resume her unhealthy behaviours.

[stolencrumbs]

I am definitely skeptical of the promises of sudden change. She clearly doesn't want to be there, and is desperate to get out. She has described it as the most horrific and humiliating experience of her life. There also seem to be roughly two options with regard to sudden change--either she can suddenly change her behavior, in which case she always could have, and so could've not been doing this years ago. If that's the case, I'm more infuriated than I've already been. Or, she can't suddenly change (much more likely, iyam), and the promises are just attempts to get me to pull any strings I can to get her out. On neither option does is seem like a good idea for me to do that, or for me to jump right back in when she gets out and pretend like everything is fine.

I talked with one of the therapists at the hospital today. He seemed mainly interested in getting some information about medications she takes. She did not disclose that she takes adderall, nor did she disclose that she drinks almost nightly with the goal of passing out. I also forgot to tell them that she also gets a monthly octreotide shot. I have the guy's direct phone number, so I'm going to call him back and give him that information. He seemed very concerned about her taking adderall, and I agree. But she is going to flip out if they tell her she can't take that.

Not sure how long she'll be there. She's currently in the acute care unit. There is also a step-down unit. The guy today talked in terms of assessing over the next couple of days. I think state law requires a court order for a stay longer than five days, but I can't figure out if that five days includes the almost two days of waiting in the ER to be transferred.

I've talking with my wife's parents and learned that her father had her committed at some point during her teenage years. That is not something I knew anything about.

I made myself dinner in my kitchen last night. I thought I remembered that I like to cook, and it turns out I do. Took the leftovers to some friends and hung out with them for a while. My best friend is coming in town tonight. He's one of the few people in the world that has an almost complete picture of the last few years, and he is unconditionally and unequivocally supportive. Excited to see him. All of my bosses have been very supportive even without any details. I'm at work now, but it's pretty much up to me whether I want to be here. It's a nice diversion at the moment, but I'm leaving to see my wife at 2:30 today.

The support I've received from friends, family, and this board over the past few days has literally brought me to tears a number of times. It's overwhelming. I guess I've always believed I had a good support system, but I've never put myself in the position of reaching out and asking for that support. It really is overwhelming.

 

[stolencrumbs]

Still not at all confident in this system. The strategy seems to be to pump her full of drugs. There is very little consultation or attempt to understand the whole history and situation. They've given her valium every two hours, an antidepressant, and risperdal. And taking the medication is pretty much the ticket to her getting out of there. This does not seem helpful or effective or the kind of care she needs. I don't think I really had a choice with the pictures she sent, but this process is doing absolutely nothing to make me feel better about going this route.

And what she wants is for me to say I'll come back home and commit to working on our relationship. I can't commit to that right now. I can commit to supporting her in getting well. That didn't go over particularly well. She's already on the step-down unit. I suspect she will be home in a day or so. No idea what I'm supposed to do then.

[formflier]

What is your involvement with her care team.  Are you getting your information from them..or from her.  If getting it from her..are you verifying it?

If you are not involved in her care team..have you asked to be?

She may have to agree to let you be part of this.

You need to think long and hard if she says no.  Remember..pwBPD want to be in control...

Still not at all confident in this system. The strategy seems to be to pump her full of drugs.

They likely want to stabilize her.  Talk therapy takes a while.

There is very little consultation or attempt to understand the whole history and situation.

Have you complained about this?  If not..

They've given her valium every two hours, an antidepressant, and risperdal. And taking the medication is pretty much the ticket to her getting out of there.

This does not seem helpful or effective or the kind of care she needs.

What do you think she needs?  Have you expressed this to her team?
 

  No idea what I'm supposed to do then.

Have you asked? 

This is the time to be pushy!

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

What is your involvement with her care team.  Are you getting your information from them..or from her.  If getting it from her..are you verifying it?

If you are not involved in her care team..have you asked to be?

She may have to agree to let you be part of this.

You need to think long and hard if she says no.  Remember..pwBPD want to be in control...


They likely want to stabilize her.  Talk therapy takes a while.





Have you complained about this?  If not..

What do you think she needs?  Have you expressed this to her team?
 

Have you asked? 

This is the time to be pushy!

Best,

FF

There does not appear to be any real team working on anything. Yes, I’ve asked to speak with doctors/therapists. That hasn’t happened, except for a brief phone conversation. This system is terrible. Through and through. Top to bottom. All the way down. She’s now back in the ER because she fainted and cut the back of her head when she fell. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Oh SC, what a hard time...I’m so sorry.  Even though it seems to go against your grain, try to push for a face to face consult.  Be that squeaky wheel.  I hope your close friend is still there supporting you.

The psyche team, or some person in charge needs to know of her dangerous behavior leading up to this week’s event.  I know that doesn’t make you feel good, but it’s important so they don’t simply release her too early with bottles of pills.

Is she still in the ER?  Stitches?  Prognosis?  Next steps?  Did she faint because she hadn’t eaten?  While in their care, she IS their responsibility.  Please know that.

Please take care of yourself.  You cannot control everything.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[formflier]

Are they denying you an appointment to talk with her providers?  Or are they being hard to work with?

Might be time to show up and be assertive.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I've been in this place with my parents. My BPD mother as well, has felt humiliated and doesn't believe she needs help. She also wants to be in control. The health care system in the US does have its issues, but it is hard to help someone who doesn't believe they need help and who isn't forthright or truthful with their issues.

One aspect of the bond between my parents, and I think with you too, is the partnership of secrecy between them- to hide and minimize the issues and "normalize" my mother. I think this also happens between the two of you- and it is what your wife wants you to do- go along with her promises that she can manage this and things will be better and you can take her home.

I have spoken to health care teams about the issues, and it was perceived as a betrayal. My mother ( and my father went along with it) was very angry at this. Yet, I felt that they needed to know the truth. They can't help if they don't know and I don't think your wife is going to tell the whole of it to them.

Yes, there may be flaws in the health care team but I would be cautious about getting on the Karpman triangle with them. My parents would find flaws with the health care providers- the two of them aligned against a third " terrible hospital staff, that terrible doctor, that terrible nurse..." The focus was not on my mother's issues, but the terrible medical providers.

All of this led to her not receiving the benefits of a treatment plan, if there was even a possibility of that. A health care provider can't help someone who won't cooperate with them, won't take medicine as prescribed and won't attend follow up counseling.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but seeing how this has happened with my own family, I see how difficult this is for you, and for the health care providers. I hope you have a chance to speak to them. I also hope that you are able to weather the consequences of what your wife will see as a betrayal if you do reveal the whole of her issues. As a legal adult- they can't hold her against her will for too long. Try to resist aligning with your wife "against" them.

[formflier]

forthright or truthful with their issues.

You should be forthright and truthful.  I would even say "pushy" (actually "assertive" is a better word)

Any complaint aired hear should also be place with her team...hopefully you can find a way to do this.

 

I have spoken to health care teams about the issues, and it was perceived as a betrayal.

Expect this. 

They can't help if they don't know and I don't think your wife is going to tell the whole of it to them.

If you are going to make an error...divulge too much.  Don't ask for permission to divulge.  Put it out there.  Your wife controls her truth.  You control yours

The focus was not on my mother's issues, but the terrible medical providers.

She how pwBPD like to "flip" responsibility.  This wouldn't be happening if we only had good doctors.

A health care provider can't help someone who won't cooperate with them, won't take medicine as prescribed and won't attend follow up counseling.
 

You need to make sure YOU are acting and attending and doing your part.  That is best play for your wife to fall in line and do her part.

Try to resist aligning with your wife "against" them.

 I would be cautious about getting on the Karpman triangle with them.

Find the center.  You also don't want to be perceived as "joined with them" and persecuting your wife.

Instead of saying "Your T said xyz and you should be doing it"

perhaps try

"Help me understand the difference I see in your Ts recommendations and your actions"  See how you are standing in the middle looking at both sides.

Finally:  Remember...they are a "crisis" team focused on stabilizing. 

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I also want to add that, they weren't "terrible" medical providers. I'm sure some were better than others but keeping in mind, the tendency for black and white thinking and if one thing goes wrong ( i. e. didn't get dinner on time) then the "whole team is bad. "

Also, the health care team is going to give her what she needs, not what she wants and that may anger your wife. My BPD mother is manipulative. Any provider who is "on to her" or doesn't do what she wants is painted black by her. Consider that a great health care provider may be the one who does not enable your wife. The provider may not be as concerned about whether she likes him or her, but is more concerned about  providing the  best treatment for her.

The health care team may be limited by your wife's willingness or unwillingness to cooperate.

[Cat Familiar]

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