Part 2: Can I seriously continue putting up with such nonsense?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339023.0

Hey CycleBreaker123, breathe!  You're really wired.  That's OK.  Let's just keep that energy directed at the people in our life, and deal here on a level-headed basis. We're all here to work through difficult life situations and also improve our self-awareness.  

I do apologize if my sometimes manic / sarcastic writing voice occurs to others as disrespectful or flippant - the tone of this board can be quite heavy a lot of the time, for good reason, and my situation is so un-important in the scheme of things that I was hesitate to post here at all.    It is interesting that there is not even a category for "My Friend Has BPD ...".   It's either your kid, your parents, your brother, or your spouse / long term partner.    I'm guessing this is because people with BPD basically don't retain many pals through the years - their bad habit of trashing people close to them guarantees that only those who are connected either through blood or years of marriage have no real choice but to put up with the nonsense - any friends picked up along the way have no real incentive to stick around.     You tell me, is that why there is no "friends" category on this forum, or is there some other reason?    Do people with BPD even have "friends"?  

We have thousands of members who have been in affairs, and/or in relationships with younger people... It's just a fact in the narrative

Yes but the circumstances of how she and I met have nothing to do with my current circumstances.   As I said, the original connection was romantic, and inappropriate because we were in a workplace, and our age difference fell outside of the standard "1/2 senior person's age + 7" cutoff which really is a formula that seems to have stood the test of time.    As the senior person, I should never have allowed it to happen, end of story.    And here I am ... many many years later talking about the current version of our relationship which is 180 degrees different from what it was then - and even STILL the tawdry aspects of our early connection are what keeps coming up in this thread.   Fine, it was a serial thing - we drifted apart, tried to remain in contact, I married, my friendship with her has been a constant struggle - all because an older guy simply CANNOT be friends with a younger female - eyebrows go up - etc ... just like they do in this forum dedicated to BPD, which really is what I came here to talk about.   I appreciate you taking the time to respond here to a total newbie - and your reply is first rate, which I will get into momentarily - it's not wasted on me that I sort of feel like I'm being called into the Principal's Office here, and I'm not really sure why

All of your insights here resonate with me as quite true - and as originally stated - this relationship occurs to me as an intertwingling of Mentor/Friend/Parent/Ex - it's truly not straightforward and quite layered - I have nothing like it in my life to compare it to.   It has aspects of all of the above, and thus the self-help mentoring materials don't quite fit.    She didn't "stand me up" here - that's not what happened.   What happened is she reached out, asked me for help, sweetened the offer with a strong dose of playfulness taping into shared mutual experiences over the years, and THEN turned around to ghost me without remorse.   Her behavior felt mean, purposeful, and frankly somewhat concerning.   But this was not a case of "life happening", blah blah - of course friendships by design, are much looser and need to be rubber-like flexible as opposed to an expectation filled exclusive romantic entanglement.   Friendships are not exclusive, they are not demanding, they can and are DELIGHTFUL for just those reasons.  My emotional indignation stems from the purposeful nature of her actions here.   It was as if she drew me in specifically so she could do a "discard".   She knows me very well, and by approaching me as a "mentor" here, she knew that I would respond quickly and enthusiastically, since I welcome any opportunity to help her professionally and give our friendship as much "validity" as possible.  

Perhaps it would be much easier if this was just a "Mentor" sort of thing - but it's NOT - and I'm not at all confident I can just start over as a Mentor sort of thing.   People don't work that way, right?    Life doesn't come with an "UNDO" button.  But yes, this is the problem - her and I will crisscross from "mentor" to "pals" to "dad-daughter" to "ex girfriend" in the blink of an eye.  Little wonder it's confusing for me.   Which leads me to realize that it's probably TEN TIMES more confusing for her.  So obviously it cannot possibly survive.    And that's really too bad.    But I think such is the unrelenting conclusion here -  something like this obviously just CANNOT survive - far too many things going against it.  

Can we be a friend to an ex-lover? What are the healthy boundaries on friendship? How do you deal with a flaky friend?  Anyone?

Can we be a parent figure to an ex-lover? I'll open that question to everyone. Is there anything mutually exclusive about being an ex-lover and a parent-figure? Is it healthy/realistic to evolve from one to the other? Anyone?

what type of relationship are you in? What are realistic expectations?  What is healthy?  Should you rethink all of this?

All very insightful questions, thank you.   Such is obviously why you get the big bucks around here    I cannot answer any of them, .    But I will certainly think about them, and hear what others think.    Actually your last question is easy peasy.  YES, I need to rethink and re-evaluate here.   Sadly, I know that ultimately this is a non-doable friendship.   Too many hurdles - add BPD to the mix and it's a recipe for constant splitting - which is exactly what has been going on here for years now.  

[CycleBreaker123]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339023.0

Hey CycleBreaker123, breathe!  You're really wired.  That's OK.  Let's just keep that energy directed at the people in our life, and deal here on a level-headed basis. We're all here to work through difficult life situations and also improve our self-awareness.  

I do apologize if my sometimes manic / sarcastic writing voice occurs to others as disrespectful or flippant - the tone of this board can be quite heavy a lot of the time, for good reason, and my situation is so un-important in the scheme of things that I was hesitate to post here at all.    It is interesting that there is not even a category for "My Friend Has BPD ...".   It's either your kid, your parents, your brother, or your spouse / long term partner.    I'm guessing this is because people with BPD basically don't retain many pals through the years - their bad habit of trashing people close to them guarantees that only those who are connected either through blood or years of marriage have no real choice but to put up with the nonsense - any friends picked up along the way have no real incentive to stick around.     You tell me, is that why there is no "friends" category on this forum, or is there some other reason?    Do people with BPD even have "friends"?  

We have thousands of members who have been in affairs, and/or in relationships with younger people... It's just a fact in the narrative

Yes but the circumstances of how she and I met have nothing to do with my current circumstances.   As I said, the original connection was romantic, and inappropriate because we were in a workplace, and our age difference fell outside of the standard "1/2 senior person's age + 7" cutoff which really is a formula that seems to have stood the test of time.    As the senior person, I should never have allowed it to happen, end of story.    And here I am ... many many years later talking about the current version of our relationship which is 180 degrees different from what it was then - and even STILL the tawdry aspects of our early connection are what keeps coming up in this thread.   Fine, it was a serial thing - we drifted apart, tried to remain in contact, I married, my friendship with her has been a constant struggle - all because an older guy simply CANNOT be friends with a younger female - eyebrows go up - etc ... just like they do in this forum dedicated to BPD, which really is what I came here to talk about.   I appreciate you taking the time to respond here to a total newbie - and your reply is first rate, which I will get into momentarily - it's not wasted on me that I sort of feel like I'm being called into the Principal's Office here, and I'm not really sure why

All of your insights here resonate with me as quite true - and as originally stated - this relationship occurs to me as an intertwingling of Mentor/Friend/Parent/Ex - it's truly not straightforward and quite layered - I have nothing like it in my life to compare it to.   It has aspects of all of the above, and thus the self-help mentoring materials don't quite fit.    She didn't "stand me up" here - that's not what happened.   What happened is she reached out, asked me for help, sweetened the offer with a strong dose of playfulness taping into shared mutual experiences over the years, and THEN turned around to ghost me without remorse.   Her behavior felt mean, purposeful, and frankly somewhat concerning.   But this was not a case of "life happening", blah blah - of course friendships by design, are much looser and need to be rubber-like flexible as opposed to an expectation filled exclusive romantic entanglement.   Friendships are not exclusive, they are not demanding, they can and are DELIGHTFUL for just those reasons.  My emotional indignation stems from the purposeful nature of her actions here.   It was as if she drew me in specifically so she could do a "discard".   She knows me very well, and by approaching me as a "mentor" here, she knew that I would respond quickly and enthusiastically, since I welcome any opportunity to help her professionally and give our friendship as much "validity" as possible.  

Perhaps it would be much easier if this was just a "Mentor" sort of thing - but it's NOT - and I'm not at all confident I can just start over as a Mentor sort of thing.   People don't work that way, right?    Life doesn't come with an "UNDO" button.  But yes, this is the problem - her and I will crisscross from "mentor" to "pals" to "dad-daughter" to "ex girfriend" in the blink of an eye.  Little wonder it's confusing for me.   Which leads me to realize that it's probably TEN TIMES more confusing for her.  So obviously it cannot possibly survive.    And that's really too bad.    But I think such is the unrelenting conclusion here -  something like this obviously just CANNOT survive - far too many things going against it.  

Can we be a friend to an ex-lover? What are the healthy boundaries on friendship? How do you deal with a flaky friend?  Anyone?

Can we be a parent figure to an ex-lover? I'll open that question to everyone. Is there anything mutually exclusive about being an ex-lover and a parent-figure? Is it healthy/realistic to evolve from one to the other? Anyone?

what type of relationship are you in? What are realistic expectations?  What is healthy?  Should you rethink all of this?

All very insightful questions, thank you.   Such is obviously why you get the big bucks around here    I cannot answer any of them, .    But I will certainly think about them, and hear what others think.    Actually your last question is easy peasy.  YES, I need to rethink and re-evaluate here.   Sadly, I know that ultimately this is a non-doable friendship.   Too many hurdles - add BPD to the mix and it's a recipe for constant splitting - which is exactly what has been going on here for years now.  

[once removed]

I'm being called into the Principal's Office here, and I'm not really sure why

there are no principals here. just friends helping friends.

good support is about finding our emotional center. getting grounded. resolving the conflict in our life that plagues us and keeps us in chains. sometimes its uncomfortable. the best support i ever received during my breakup was, by far, the hardest to swallow.

alternatively, you can vent, and we can listen, and we can say "that sucks". thats support too. but it leaves that conflict unresolved, and maybe even worse.

Do people with BPD even have "friends"?

do people with NPD have friends? do people with OCD have friends? people with depression and anxiety? there are tens of millions of people with mental illnesses, and if you add in people with traits, youre in the hundreds of millions.

i mention this only because if you want to understand your friends motivations, and the complexity of your relationship, generalities will obscure it all. does your friend have friends? are you one of them?

we dont know why your friend reached out and then didnt respond. i know that in my life, many times ive reached out to other people to get together, and not followed through, and perhaps even avoided it when they tried. it might not have been unreasonable if they concluded i was doing it to purposefully mess with them, but it would have been the wrong conclusion.

she may not know herself. it may be as confusing a situation for her as it is for you.

But yes, this is the problem - her and I will crisscross from "mentor" to "pals" to "dad-daughter" to "ex girfriend" in the blink of an eye.  Little wonder it's confusing for me.

you do speak mostly ill of her. that makes some sense to me, i spoke a lot of ill about my ex even when i was with her.

and i suspect if it were that simple, it wouldnt be confusing, and you wouldnt feel this anger. shed be history.

when our relationships and our boundaries blur like this, there are reasons; they might not be very clear. it seems to me that there is something about this relationship that provides you with something; something that youre getting out of it, even though it may be inconsistent or elusive, something that perhaps may even be missing from your marriage, something you may even have been chasing for a long time.

finding it will make things less confusing, your path more clear.

what do you think?

[Skip]

Sadly, I know that ultimately this is a non-doable friendship.   Too many hurdles - add BPD to the mix and it's a recipe for constant splitting - which is exactly what has been going on here for years now.  

You have said some harsh things about your friend... do you really feel that about her or are you just hurt and reacting?

[CycleBreaker123]

 

it seems to me that there is something about this relationship that provides you with something; something that youre getting out of it, even though it may be inconsistent or elusive, something that perhaps may even be missing from your marriage, something you may even have been chasing for a long time.

finding it will make things less confusing, your path more clear.

what do you think?

I've thought about this a lot.   Think it's multi-layered.    Childhood left me with a deep fear of being abandoned - understandable reasons for this having to do with parent's circumstances at the time, and certainly it wasn't this over riding BPD level terror of being abandoned which governs daily life.   And since almost the very start with "K" (code for my friend") she has triggered this ancient discomfort over and over again - mainly by randomly shutting off communication - almost as if there is some sort of "power failure" in our mutual connection and Gawd only knows when the lights will go back on, if ever.   Point is, when these "outages" occur, it's 100 percent obvious to me that she has decided to take total control, and my only real option is to walk away and not look back until she decides to turn the lights back on.   And it's that lack of power in those times that I think are some sort of addiction - like something in me that hates and fears being abandoned, actually somehow craves it.   Another thought is I so dislike my irrational fear of being abandoned, that somehow my relationship with "K" gives me plenty of practice getting over it.   Like I used to be terrified of public speaking, and I got over it by forcing myself into the situation over and over and over.   So "K" has abandoned our friendship so many times, leaving my powerless, in a way it kind of feels "good for me" to feel the old familiar fear creep up, but now I have tools to handle it much better, knowing I'll be just fine.     

I also really like puzzles and challenges - and with "K" it's like I'm constantly feeling like she's this human Rubik's Cube and I'm almost at the point where it will be "solved" - she will finally accept and trust that I'm not going anywhere, and understand that I'm not going to judge her choices or have anything villainous or inappropriate in mind.   And that's a hook for me, and she knows this, and thus is constantly putting us in situations where I feel it neccessary to do something "heroic" to demonstrate good intentions, followed soon after by her finding some reason to blow us up.   And over time, these reasons to "blow up" are becoming so ridiculous, so indefensible, so utterly predictable at this point, that it's truly getting "old" now.   

I'm not singing her praises here, because giving the circumstances and nature of this forum, everybody is here basically because somebody in their life is TORTURING them by demonstrating mind numbing terrible behavior, custom tailored to them, and only them, courtesy of another person who is GUARANTEED to have an EVIL TWIN who inhabits the body and mind of a person who seemed so very perfect early on.    But of course, K can be incredibly compelling when she wants to be - it's only over time that I've realized she can basically be whoever her partner wants her to be.   

All of which explains why she has no real "friends" to speak of - and the few she has all seem to have a similar experience to me in that they NEVER have spent even a moment with "K" in the company of another friend.   All of "K"'s socializing is one-on-one - obviously this allows her to get into whatever "costume" and remain there - if "K" were to hang out with several friends at the same time, well that would mean costume changes every minute, and that would be not only exhausting, but her friends would all see the trickery going on behind the curtain.   I've never ONCE spent a minute with K in the company of any other person who knows her - not once in over a decade.    There was one time I had three minutes alone with her phone - yeah - I peeked - I mean it's hard not to peek in that situation, right?   I just wanted to know - and I found exactly what I was looking for right away.   She had nine different conversation threads going on - a few were banal school related or roommate logistics - a few were very fun and witty and flirty like the "K" whom I really liked but rarely go to interact with any more, and a few were totally viscous  hate-filled venom-bombs thrown at people who truly are there for her, like her MOM, an ex boyfriend, a longstanding friend she had talked about.    It was astonishing to see a brief glimpse into K's compartmentalized world - like how is it even possible to keep track without some sort of emotional "spreadsheet"  detailing who is where in her emotional life.   

My problem with everything I've learned about BPD is there is that these people specialize in treating those close to them VERY BADLY - and it's almost like the closer they feel they are connected to a person - the WORSE they are allowed to treat them.   Which is why they treat their parents the worst of all, then comes their spouses, etc.   And the BEST of themselves is  pretty much reserved for new customers, much like Verizon offers their best stuff to customers who aren't even customers yet - I called them yesterday and found out that my N years of loyalty are worth NOTHING to Verizon - but if I quit, next year I can be treated like Verizon royalty again.    But I don't get this deal with "K" - nope - it's like the "fun" version is pretty much reserved for new boyfriends who get the 90 day "welcome package".   Then they will be cruelly discarded, blocked across all social media, and then perhaps allowed to "reorbit".     But the BPD literature, the better stuff I've read, seems to keep hitting us over the head with "well, when they treat you terribly, it actually means they feel so close to you, they are afraid you will leave, etc.   And telling us this brings us right back - "Oh, I get it, what this abuse actually means is I must matter to them so very much".    And I'm starting to not buy this any more.   If all I'm going to get from now on is the EVIL twin version of "K" - given she's neither a blood relative or spouse - with no legal entanglements or obligations of any kind - since this is basically just supposed to be a friendship anyway - there is just ZERO POINT in doing any more.   None whatsover.   

And then the worst part is that it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE what I decide today - I've decided to toss K back into the fish pond nineteen times over the years - that ok, that's enough of this nonsense - I used to tell her such, that I was "leaving"  our friendship, which always caused some sort of altercation involving her summoning her darkest version to curse me for all eternity, etc ... leading to some sort of "break" after which we go to lunch like nothing ever happened.    So I see no reason to even tell her I've had enough - it's not her business actually.    But what I know, and I hate this part, is that a few months from now I'll be totally over it and it's not like any big deal to get back on the K bus.    Friendships are like that, they can be put away in some Facebook folder thingie, and reopened in the future, and that's just fine.   There is really not much of a reason to announce a "break up" of friendships - some fade, some wax and wane, and so it goes.   Anything we announce today is meaningless tomorrow. 

What this comes around to is I'm convinced this friendship, or whatever it is, has no future and no purpose and there's so very little in it for me and so I should emotionally shut it down.   And if next month K sends me some stewpid meme that makes me laugh, then I can re-evaluate and go from there.   I'm just being practical here - the nature of non exclusive friendships makes it tough to make a firm decision around these sorts of things.   Thoughts?

[CycleBreaker123]

You have said some harsh things about your friend... do you really feel that about her or are you just hurt and reacting?

What's the difference ?   I'm annoyed and re-evaluating.   Yes, that's how I "really feel".   I'm totally annoyed.  "Annoyed" is a very real feeling, I'm feeling it right now, in fact.    So much so that I am here, 28 messages deep, where it feels good to spew out the thoughts that I've never discussed with anybody.   Will I feel just as annoyed a week from now?   Nope, probably not.   How about a month from now.  Nope, probably not at all.   Don't most human beings work that way?   The feelings that come from intentional hurtful behavior of others are about as real as feelings can be.   Then those bad feelings fade.  And we are talking about kid stuff here compared to some of the outrages things discussed on this forum.  

[Skip]

I am here, 28 messages deep, where it feels good to spew out the thoughts that I've never discussed with anybody. Will I feel just as annoyed a week from now? Nope, probably not. How about a month from now. Nope, probably not at all. Don't most human beings work that way?

OK, I get it. You want your thoughts to be heard. You are not really in the mindset of having a self-reflective discussion and listening to mentors who have been through what you are now experiencing.

That's cool. It's a very valid stage. There may be interest in digging deeper at some future point.

Carry on!

[CycleBreaker123]

OK, I get it. You want your thoughts to be heard. You are not really in the mindset of having a self-reflective discussion and listening to mentors who have been through what you are now experiencing and made sense of it all, and grew emotionally.

That's cool. It's a very valid stage. There may be interest in digging deeper at some future point.

Carry on!

Perhaps my chosen words above didn't capture my meaning.   It's the act of writing stuff out that is helpful, to me.   But if I'm feeling that my meaning isn't getting across, then I have to dig deeper - and that's the whole point.   So I'll try again, .   A self reflective discussion with those who have gone through this stuff would be most welcome, and I'd do my best to listen carefully and participate fully.  That said, from the first post I've used the word "low stakes" here - as opposed to the huge stakes involved where some people here are trying to work out if they should leave a spouse of 30 years, where grown children and life savings are on the line - or how to deal with an adult child who sits around all day accusing their aging parent of all sorts of imagined transgressions.   These are indeed hard and painful choices to make, where boundary setting will be tested to the ultimate limit.   

But a "friendship", where there really are very few repercussions in deciding to leave today, and a month from now deciding to meet up for lunch and picking up where it was left off, is such an easy decision to make.   Because sure, I could toughen my resolve that "enough is really enough now" and refuse to engage with K until she's had a few years of DBT behind her, and watch her pull out all sorts of tricks in her toolbelt to keep me from "abandoning" ship here.  Yes, I'd like to know how to be more committed to a decision to not engage in the future ... but the reality is what real damage occurs were I to "slip" in the future, like I slipped a few weeks ago and bought into her "please help with career planning" gambit?   I didn't post 12 times here in the past week because I'm despondent over this stuff - I'm very much enjoying being able to discuss a situation for the first time in my life with people who seem to have "been there, done that".   It's a treat!   I feel so badly for the people who got deeply sucked into the dark world of a person crippled with BPD, I feel badly for taking time away to discuss my story - although maybe it seems "different enough" from the norm that there is value to the board in discussing it.    How many people here have been through the loss of a friend who has BPD?   Not a wife, not a son or daughter.   Just a pal.   It seems like "why bother doing the required work, they are just a pal, you can both find other pals.   Or you can be pals again next year  As you yourself pointed out, friendships are patient and forgiving.   They have to be.   That's what makes them friendships

[Skip]

What this comes around to is I'm convinced this friendship, or whatever it is, has no future and no purpose and there's so very little in it for me and so I should emotionally shut it down.   And if next month K sends me some stewpid meme that makes me laugh, then I can re-evaluate and go from there.   I'm just being practical here - the nature of non exclusive friendships makes it tough to make a firm decision around these sorts of things.   Thoughts?

Feedback on your thoughts? Sure.

Do you remember this line from the Eagle's Lying Eyes:

City girls just seem to find out early How to open doors with just a smile

In Millennial's vernacular, the term "orbiters" is sometimes used.  

I have always been amazed how many single women (and some in committed relationships), from all walks of life, have orbiters.

Back when I was dating my BPD-ish gf, she was always taking her car in for service and washing and the dealership treated her great (upgrading radio, upgrading trim, upgrading seats). She was a striking women with long red hair who soft flirted with the service manager. He took care of her. I believe they went out for lunch once or twice and there was "a magic kiss" he sometimes referred to in emails. She knew how to open doors with just a smile. She knew how to do just enough to keep him in orbit around her needs.

This was the first time I noticed this sort of thing and I initially chalked it off to BPD. But in future relationships, and with other women I knew, I probed this topic. I'm a curious person. I was shocked at how many had learned how to open doors [and keep them open] with just a smile.  One guy remodeled  one girls home for just the cost of materials and a few extra bucks. He was at her home for 3 days a week for months and he often worked late and she shared dinner at the construction site.

Unusual behavior? Maybe not so unusual.

My current partner is as loyal and ethical a person as I have ever met... and I was surprised to find that in the first year we dated that her weekly kayaking event was run by a guy who was an orbiter. They kayaked and cycled together for 2 years. She was new in town and he taught her a lot about both sports and he opened doors for her.

Were these mentors? Were these friends? Parent figures?

No, these were symbiotic or opportunistic relationships where the currency for the men was a smile, admiration, the attention of a beautiful women... and a glimmer of hope, however small.

For this the guys, provided something of value to the ladies beyond simple friendship or traditional mentoring... a service, access, connections, professional guidance, something, etc.

Ultimately all these relationship that I know of ended in frustration to the man. Some quietly went away over time. Others, not so quietly. I know one case resulted in a RO.

Could you be in this wheelhouse?

[CycleBreaker123]

In Millennial's vernacular, the term "orbiters" is sometimes used.  

I have always been amazed how many single women (and some in committed relationships), from all walks of life, have orbiters.

Of course.  Especially Borderline women - orbiters provide a constant supply of attention-on-demand as well as comfort that they have an "emergency exit" available at all times.   Plus, orbiters provide them with currency to enhance their perceived value in the eyes of their current beau.    K keeps at least three orbiters spinning at all times, one of each flavor.   The Vanilla orbiter is the ex boyfriend whom she ran away from,  leaving him talking to himself due to total lack of any sort of closure - but she is now talking to again.   The Strawberry flavored Orbiter is usually a classic "Nice Guy" who has been holding a candle for her since High School - the classic "just friend" who has been kept on ice for a long time whom she has never warmed up to "in that way".   Yet he lingers around thinking maybe one day she will change her mind.   Finally there is the Chocolate orbiter - this is a brand new intrigue she has been flirting with, maybe he's a hottie from the gym, maybe the dashing older boyfriend of a friend of hers - somebody who is obviously "bad" for her, but in all the right ways - the kind of guy female pop stars sing tragic songs about - heartbreakers.    K has entertained one of each flavor at all times, and we've talked about them a lot actually.  

But in no way do I feel like one myself.   I've been an orbiter in the past, like LONG ago in my naive younger days   --- yup -- I recall quite well the helplessness, the pain and the humiliation of being the Strawberry guy -  it took maybe until I was 25 to learn that sweet and nice and dependable doesn't get one laid.   She is sort of like an "ex", I guess - that said I know for a fact that in no way do I have any thoughts along those lines - I know this to be a fact because while I have plenty of fantasies flying around in my head at various times - never once does she appear in one.   I believe this can happen to men, sometimes a woman "crosses over" in our mind's eye into a place where we never think of them "in that way".    To me, the wife of a friend goes there right away, my nieces, or their friends - somehow I just have this mental folder where once somebody goes into the folder, any inappropriate thoughts about them just don't happen.   As opposed to my Miss Stanyan, my ninth grade English teacher who not only has not aged a DAY in 40 years in my mind's eye, she has never even changed her outfit!"

But you bring up a great point - from K's perspective, I'm pretty sure that the only model she has in her experience for somebody like myself is that of an older orbiter - such is how she regards me despite anything I do or say.   Nothing will convince her otherwise - and it's probably not helped that I've been quite generous with her over the years,  without even hinting at my expecting anything in return - I always just tell her to "pay it forward" one day.    But I have solid evidence that K uses my presence in her life as some sort of "chip" - this was the main reason we blew up two years ago - we had an argument, I told her I needed a break, she then went on to put me squarely in the middle of a sloppily constructed Smear Campaign, trying to position me as somebody harassing her, giving her life some needed drama and excitement.   She went on to block me on Facebook, which concerned my wife a LOT - as it should have.     I had to get in touch with K and explain to her that if she going to have any sort of friendship with a married guy, then she simply CANNOT block this guy EVER, as doing so sounds sketch as can be -

"honey, why is K blocking you on Facebook?"

"because she is crazy"

"well there must be SOMETHING you did "

"actually no, she blocked me specifically because she knew doing so would enrage me"

"why would she wish to enrage a friend of hers?   Do you try to enrage your friends?   I don't."

"I told you, because she is crazy"

"why would you want a crazy friend like that?   Anyway it makes me quite uncomfortable, can you ask her to unblock you?"

"No, she blocked my email and instant messages as well"

This was not a good day.   So we were not in touch for 18 months or so.   Then came the short messages - then longer ones - soon the emoticons appeared.   Etc.  

Yeah, she thinks of me as an Orbiter - but I don't consider myself one - so where does that leave things?  

What is the HOOK for me here, seriously?   It's not fantasies of ordering room service, that's for sure.    Honestly, I hate to admit this but it's pretty much on-the-money - I think I"m addicted to the challenge of breaking through the wall - I think this because I totally HATE being ignored (or blocked)  I hate the powerless nature of knowing that a person simply REFUSES to say one word to me.   I hate the Silent Treatment thing.   Or so I say - I'm afraid maybe I'm totally addicted to the challenge these people present with their constant Splitting us black.  I so want to be WHITE again - I can't stand being split black.   And what's really pathetic - the moment I'm back in the White zone - the moment our communication lines are open and she's returning texts within minutes, etc --- in those moments I feel totally calm and at peace - I have nothing to say to her actually -

Could you be in this wheelhouse?

She may think so.   But I certainly don't feel it.  I know the feeling of being an orbiter.   A particular pathos that I have no intention of returning to ever again.    BTW:, thank you for taking the time here.  This is fun, as well as helpful.

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...orbiters provide a constant supply of attention-on-demand as well as comfort that they have an "emergency exit" available at all times.   Plus, orbiters provide them with currency to enhance their perceived value in the eyes of their current beau...

You may be defining "orbiter" far too narrowly. The definition I gave was much broader than BPD or definitions you list.

Be careful not to fool yourself. "Mentor" or "parent" might sound better, because those are "superior" roles. "Orbitor" is an inferior role.

And if next month K sends me some stewpid meme that makes me laugh, then I can re-evaluate and go from there.  I'm just being practical here - the nature of non exclusive friendships makes it tough to make a firm decision around these sorts of things.   Thoughts?

My thought? What you describe is an inferior position.

So we were not in touch for 18 months or so.   Then came the short messages - then longer ones - soon the emoticons appeared.   Etc.  

Yeah, she thinks of me as an Orbiter - but I don't consider myself one - so where does that leave things?

That says it all.

Yeah, she thinks of me as an Orbiter - but I don't consider myself one - so where does that leave things?

Orbiters never think they are orbiters.  When they find out, if they have self respect, they usually exit.

Honestly, I hate to admit this but it's pretty much on-the-money - I think I"m addicted to the challenge of breaking through the wall - I think this because I totally HATE being ignored (or blocked)  I hate the powerless nature of knowing that a person simply REFUSES to say one word to me.  

This screams "orbitor".

Would you have this same "addiction" if this was Trump's 400 lb hacker living in his mom's basement?  No way. right?

This is not about a challenge. Right?  Sound's better than orbiter, for sure. But true?

Going back to the Eagle's Lying Eyes:

City girls just seem to find out early How to open doors with just a smile

Not anyone proudest moment, but do you think maybe this defines this relationship far better than "mentor"?

[CycleBreaker123]

You may be defining "orbiter" far too narrowly. The definition I gave was much broader than BPD or definitions you list.

Be careful not to fool yourself. "Mentor" or "parent" might sound better, because those are "superior" roles. "Orbitor" is an inferior role.

OK, so there's a large well known river that runs right through the city of Cairo - and I have been known to float down that river myself - possibly I am doing so right now, in fact.  I may be in serious denial here - such is the takeaway of this conversation, right?   Yes, I would much prefer the term "Mentor" or "Parent" to "Orbiter".   Maybe my insistence that there is no romantic component here gives me permission to be abused - like it grants me some sort of 'non-orbiter" status here - and I could be totally kidding myself.   As you pointed out - if she considers me an Orbiter, if she treats me like an Orbiter, if she willfully exploits me the way she exploits a more traditional orbiter, and I go along with whatever, then basically I'm an Orbiter regardless of the fact that I'm not waiting around for my "turn", as it were.   

A quick peep into the Urban Dictionary tells us :

orbiter
A guy that wants to sleep with his female friend.

He "orbits" her (hangs out with in a needy way) in the hopes of getting sex someday.

If the girl is hot, she usually has many orbiters.

So that's the common description, and I while we can word-battle all day long here, it all comes out the same in the end.   I'm being terribly mistreated,  and putting up with it for no real good reason.    My stated reason, the reason that gives me 'permission' to have allowed it to go on came from all the stuff about BPD that I read and how everybody eventually abandons these people, that they know that everybody will leave them because they are so unlovable, blah blah --- poor little Borderline can't get a break, etc.   And I bought it hook, line, and sinker - ok, it shouldn't be such a big deal to put up with her nonsense, there are very little stakes involved for me, who cares if she splits me black every so often - the more she continues to do so, the more it must mean that I somehow "matter".    And maybe that's true, and maybe it's not - but what is undeniably is it's certainly no big WIN to have a person feel SOO CLOSE to us, that they show us their WORST POSSIBLE BEHAVIOR, the stuff that they know will get them tossed back into the sea by 99% of the world.   Is this really the end goal here?   Obviously not.  I think many of us are driven by some sort of hopelessly fantasy that we can turn this thing around for this person, if we just hang in there with them, if we find ridiculously tiny ways to somehow validate their abusive mistreatment of us, if we insure that we never infer for even a moment that a four year old child has more restrain than they do - then MAYBE we can "love them out of it".   And even after we know for a fact that such is a fool's dream, unless they get onboard a committed program of expensive therapy - I think a lot of us still trudge forward anyway, and the more one has invested in the person, the harder it is to give up the good fight. 

Would you have this same "addiction" if this was Trump's 400 lb hacker living in his mom's basement?  No way. right?

Nope.  Pretty girls get away with a lot of nonsense, that's for sure.   

Not anyone proudest moment, but do you think maybe this defines this relationship far better than "mentor"?

Again, I never said that this was a "mentor" thing - what I said was it had some aspects of "mentorship" intertwingled with three other descriptors.   It doesn't really matter whose definition of "Orbiter" we use here.   What has become crystal clear to me in this conversation is that there exists an inappropriately significant amount of Emotional stuff going on in me here - and more so than I realized - and that alone forces me into a place where I just have to let it go - and that means REALLY let it go, the next time she brings me in for another round.   It's not true that there is no "stakes" for me - as evidenced by this thread approaching 50 posts now.   There are plenty.   And that just because I don't bring a sexual thing to the table here, such doesn't get me off the hook.   So that's on me - we will see how I do in six months.   I guess insisting on No Contact until she can show a signed note from a qualified DBT therapist is a good place to start.   You tell me - what's the trick to staying away, over time?   

[ColdKnight]

Cycle,

I have to give you serious props for drilling down and really getting to the core issue here. Seems you have done a lot of self reflection which is hard for most people, myself included, to do.

You have finally admitted to yourself that this girl means, for whatever reason, more to you than you initially admitted to yourself when you first started this post.

It doesn’t matter why she does but the simple fact that you now realize that speaks volumes and I believe is a huge step is moving forward from here.

You mentioned in one of your past posts that this was an “un-doable friendship”. If you truly feel that way then I think you have your answer as what to do. Walk away and never look back.

From everything I have read and researched I have come to the conclusion that there are only two ways a relationship with any pwBPD can work:

1) The pwPDB is self aware AND actively, enthusiastically, participating in counseling preferably alongside a SO, close friend, or family member

OR

2) The SO, friend, family member is willing to accept all of their bad behavior as part of who they are. Be willing to accept all of the bad with the good and be willing to accept the possibility that they may leave you for good, forever, right out of the blue.

It sounds like #1) is rare and most people are not strong enough to handle #2. It is just too draining. I wasn’t strong enough to handle it. I had to get out. I had to ensure that I would never go back to her.

You have to decide what best suits you. We cannot save them we can only save ourselves. I read somewhere on this board that a pwBPD is like a shipwreck survivor and we are the coast guard. We come pick them out of the icy cold, shark infested water, dry them off, give them a nice warm blanket and hot food. As soon as they feel comfortable they jump back into the water.

How many times can we continue to jump in after them before we need to be recused?

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I guess insisting on No Contact until she can show a signed note from a qualified DBT therapist is a good place to start.   You tell me - what's the trick to staying away, over time?  

I'm not sure that demanding "no contact" or "proof of therapy" is what a man of good character does in a situation like this. Nor do I think it will extricate you... it will just heighten your emotions in this connection.

CycleBreaker123, as you probably suspect, we have members who who have committed suicide. What you may not know is that one of the leading suicide profiles is older men who were involved with younger women.

I'm not suggesting that you are suicidal - I don't sense that. But it might be worth exploring why this is a leading suicide profile. I've thought about, and probed this for years. Clearly, one big attraction in these relationships is the connection back to youth. It's not just a physical attraction, its a connection to youth past.

It's powerfully attractive. It is very hard to replace if it is lost.

You tell me - what's the trick to staying away, over time?  

Ending a relationship is infinitely simple. You've done it before. You let go and move onto other things.

Why is this harder than that? Maybe its about realizing that this is about us, not the other person. What are you holding onto? What is it you can't let go of?

[CycleBreaker123]

Connection to youth resonates strongly.    But not the fun things about youth.   The struggles.   I was her, same profession, much potential, struggling with somewhat similar mental challenges, though mine were quite a bit less devastating.    Nobody with any life experience overcoming these sorts of roadblocks anywhere in sight.   Just lost, drifting around from one bad situation to another - the only coping mechanism is re-inventing ourselves over and over, maybe this job will be different.  Maybe this person will really "get me".   For an attractive female, the "re-inventing" part is trivial.   New men appear regularly, a "fresh start" is on the table just as the last one is starting to rot.      The first 90 days are like Disneyland every day.   I can see that.   And then comes the day when Disneyland is closed for the day, and there you are looking in the mirror - yup, that's me, still here.   All the self destructive stuff, still here.   Finger on the button to blow it all up, yup, the finger is ready for action.   KABOOM, and it's done.   Mine was more about professional stuff, since 29 year old guys don't find playmates willing to put up with us as easily as attractive 25 year old women can.   Most men around that age don't care at all that "maybe she's crazy".   She can talk all day about her horrific early family life, a new guy won't care at all about what that means.    Being cute and willing is an "E" ticket to a "fresh start".   I think it may be easier if one is a male sufferer - because the fresh start is not so readily available.   I'm guessing when the "fresh start" is no longer as easy to find, and not as fresh anymore, perhaps that's the time they start taking a longer look in the mirror - probably as long as she remains "the fairest one of all", she's not likely to change the formula. 

  Somebody finally helped me, and my fantasy of paying such forward and helping her is pretty compelling.   And hard to let go of.   The huge potential inherent in some of these people is so heart wrenching when you have a second row seat, watching them self destruct.    I don't even have to talk to her to know she's in a meltdown.   It's painful.    I've learned what to look for on social media - when certain things happen - she's in meltdown.    RIght now, she's in meltdown.   Calling out, and then scurrying away is like a beacon --- And Turning away feels like failing.    Rescue fantasy is a strong hook.  

[CycleBreaker123]

as you probably suspect, we have members who who have committed suicide. What you may not know is that one of the leading suicide profiles is older men who were involved with younger women.

Nope, I had no such suspicion, nor ambition, and such occurs to me as a shocking and truly tragic fact.   My five year old just started Kindergarten and later I'll be attending my first PTA meeting.  I've become that guy.   

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So... what are your thoughts on all of this?

[CycleBreaker123]

So... what are your thoughts on all of this?

I was considering leaving my wife and family and ask my friend's father for his biological daughter's hand in marriage sometime this Fall.    Except she has no idea who he is.   So I'm kind of back to square one :{

I'm kidding.   My thoughts are that the fact that this topic has gone this far is proof positive that my emotional stakes here are quite a bit higher than I originally thought.   And that's quite inappropriate considering the situation.  And my wife totally agrees.     So I'm not going to be in touch with her again, and if / when she were to reach out to me, I'll do my best to explain that it's best for both of us to let this go.   

[Skip]

My thoughts are that the fact that this topic has gone this far is proof positive that my emotional stakes here are quite a bit higher than I originally thought.   And that's quite inappropriate considering the situation.  And my wife totally agrees. So I'm not going to be in touch with her again, and if / when she were to reach out to me, I'll do my best to explain that it's best for both of us to let this go.

This is a huge amount of progress in a short time. I hope the members here were helpful and you will consider paying it forward to help others. That's how it works best for all of us.

I think it is good that you have dialed you wife in as an accountability partner on this. Deciding to exit is a huge important step that takes more than most think.

Doing it is the same way, a bit more complicated than we think. Explaining anything will demonstrate connection and will likely result in "pull" behavior. That's a natural human reaction. No one like rejection.

The best method is often just lack of attentiveness and emotion. Longer response times, shallower answers, yawn, etc. Best to have her blow you off -- "I not wasting my time on him, he's not interested in me?" -- it will stick longer.