Friends playing rescuer

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am not sure but suspect that my friends and their wives are in communication with my W. I don't necessarily want to stop it, I just want to extricate myself from any triangles where I don't have full clarity of what's going on. I can't have my W believing she knows how I think or feel via 3rd parties, especially those who don't have full clarity. If my friends have been speaking to her and not had the integrity to be up front about it, I'm not sure I want them as friends. Here's a letter I'm considering sending. I talked it through with my T and he said to send it. Thoughts appreciated.

Dear all, some or none,

Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean that no one is out to kill me. As you’re aware, Enabler W and I are mid way through a protracted divorce process. This is a divorce process that she wanted, she started and it is her responsibility to lead. As I’m sure you’re all aware a divorce process is fraught with emotions, opinions and controversial decisions. Neither party is likely to be happy with the eventual outcome and both parties typically lose. Information flow between both parties has naturally broken down as communication becomes harder and harder. Each party is likely to hold opinions that the other party does not agree with based on their experience over many years in the relationship, each party is likely to have a different view of the facts and ultimately a different truth based on that experience. People regularly behave atypically to their perceived personal values and often there are conflicting stories of he said she said, he did she did.

I’m sure you can all empathise that each party would wish to know with confidence that the information they share with others is not directly or indirectly transferred back to the other party without awareness. 3rd party interpretations are not always helpful in complex situations and regularly skewed by the individuals own personal experiences; whether they believe the information or not, or their stance as to how each party ‘should’ behave. I’m sure that information being passed like Chinese whispers is likely to be filtered, washed and spun, resulting in each parties intentions being misrepresented to the other party.

I do not need nor want any of you to define what my happiness looks like or how that is achieved. I do not want or need any of you to define what is in our children’s best interest. I have sought professional guidance (accredited head practitioner and owner of a successful psychotherapy practice who treats adults, couples and children) for over 2 years now, as well as seeking guidance from people who have recent adult first hand experiences of a high conflict divorces. I have a better handle of my personal situation than any of you or your wives.

If you were to communicate with Enablers W I would hope having been my friends for over 25 years that you would be speaking highly of me, I don’t know, maybe you wouldn’t. I cannot and shouldn’t be able to control your views of me, nor do I have any interest in doing so. As mentioned above, I would expect you not to give the impression as to represent my opinions or views, I would also expect you to not share any information with Enabler W that I have shared with you.

However, what I would expect is the honesty and integrity from my friends to inform me should they find themselves knowingly in direct or indirect communication with Enabler W. I believe it to be utterly reasonable to expect people whom I call my best friends to be up front about any conflicts of interests so that I can manage what is shared. If anyone wishes to disclose that they are in communication directly or indirectly now or in the past I’d appreciate it if they highlight it now. I can then take appropriate action and extricate myself from this group until such a time where I feel information sensitivity has lessened.

I do not expect you all to manage what is and isn’t said, nor do I expect to curtail your relationships with your spouses by dictating what you can and cannot tell them about my activities, whereabouts or opinions. It’s simpler and fairer on all if I were to just remove myself if conflicts of interest exist. I fully appreciate that you have all known Enabler W since 1997 and as such have developed a friendship with her, as have each of your spouses. I do not wish to get in the way of these connections.

My priority at this time is my children, myself and where appropriate Enabler W. As such I cannot under any circumstances risk any perception at all by Enabler W that she believes she knows what I am thinking and feeling other than through communicating directly with me. If you choose to advise her then that is completely your prerogative. I might warn you however that unless you have absolute knowledge and certainty of the facts and likely professional experience in the field of marital breakdowns, there’s a good chance you (or your spouse) are unnecessarily involving yourself in a situation you do not understand, will validate the invalidate and will likely be grossly unhelpful to a complex situation. My recommendation having intimate knowledge of the situation is to stay away, however I understand some people have views and opinions they cannot bare not to share, and feel they need to offer ‘help’.

I have NO evidence to suggest communication is happening between yourselves directly, or indirectly via spouses and Enabler W, thus please do not take this as a direct accusation to any individual or group of individuals. My intention is to state clearly without any degree of ambiguity what I believe to reasonably expect from a group of life long friends; that a disclosure of perceived conflicts of interests would happen in an open and honest manner so I can take appropriate action.

During this period I need your support, not your validation or agreement. My personal character dissection time has come and gone.


Enabler

[Enabler]

I am not sure but suspect that my friends and their wives are in communication with my W. I don't necessarily want to stop it, I just want to extricate myself from any triangles where I don't have full clarity of what's going on. I can't have my W believing she knows how I think or feel via 3rd parties, especially those who don't have full clarity. If my friends have been speaking to her and not had the integrity to be up front about it, I'm not sure I want them as friends. Here's a letter I'm considering sending. I talked it through with my T and he said to send it. Thoughts appreciated.

Dear all, some or none,

Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean that no one is out to kill me. As you’re aware, Enabler W and I are mid way through a protracted divorce process. This is a divorce process that she wanted, she started and it is her responsibility to lead. As I’m sure you’re all aware a divorce process is fraught with emotions, opinions and controversial decisions. Neither party is likely to be happy with the eventual outcome and both parties typically lose. Information flow between both parties has naturally broken down as communication becomes harder and harder. Each party is likely to hold opinions that the other party does not agree with based on their experience over many years in the relationship, each party is likely to have a different view of the facts and ultimately a different truth based on that experience. People regularly behave atypically to their perceived personal values and often there are conflicting stories of he said she said, he did she did.

I’m sure you can all empathise that each party would wish to know with confidence that the information they share with others is not directly or indirectly transferred back to the other party without awareness. 3rd party interpretations are not always helpful in complex situations and regularly skewed by the individuals own personal experiences; whether they believe the information or not, or their stance as to how each party ‘should’ behave. I’m sure that information being passed like Chinese whispers is likely to be filtered, washed and spun, resulting in each parties intentions being misrepresented to the other party.

I do not need nor want any of you to define what my happiness looks like or how that is achieved. I do not want or need any of you to define what is in our children’s best interest. I have sought professional guidance (accredited head practitioner and owner of a successful psychotherapy practice who treats adults, couples and children) for over 2 years now, as well as seeking guidance from people who have recent adult first hand experiences of a high conflict divorces. I have a better handle of my personal situation than any of you or your wives.

If you were to communicate with Enablers W I would hope having been my friends for over 25 years that you would be speaking highly of me, I don’t know, maybe you wouldn’t. I cannot and shouldn’t be able to control your views of me, nor do I have any interest in doing so. As mentioned above, I would expect you not to give the impression as to represent my opinions or views, I would also expect you to not share any information with Enabler W that I have shared with you.

However, what I would expect is the honesty and integrity from my friends to inform me should they find themselves knowingly in direct or indirect communication with Enabler W. I believe it to be utterly reasonable to expect people whom I call my best friends to be up front about any conflicts of interests so that I can manage what is shared. If anyone wishes to disclose that they are in communication directly or indirectly now or in the past I’d appreciate it if they highlight it now. I can then take appropriate action and extricate myself from this group until such a time where I feel information sensitivity has lessened.

I do not expect you all to manage what is and isn’t said, nor do I expect to curtail your relationships with your spouses by dictating what you can and cannot tell them about my activities, whereabouts or opinions. It’s simpler and fairer on all if I were to just remove myself if conflicts of interest exist. I fully appreciate that you have all known Enabler W since 1997 and as such have developed a friendship with her, as have each of your spouses. I do not wish to get in the way of these connections.

My priority at this time is my children, myself and where appropriate Enabler W. As such I cannot under any circumstances risk any perception at all by Enabler W that she believes she knows what I am thinking and feeling other than through communicating directly with me. If you choose to advise her then that is completely your prerogative. I might warn you however that unless you have absolute knowledge and certainty of the facts and likely professional experience in the field of marital breakdowns, there’s a good chance you (or your spouse) are unnecessarily involving yourself in a situation you do not understand, will validate the invalidate and will likely be grossly unhelpful to a complex situation. My recommendation having intimate knowledge of the situation is to stay away, however I understand some people have views and opinions they cannot bare not to share, and feel they need to offer ‘help’.

I have NO evidence to suggest communication is happening between yourselves directly, or indirectly via spouses and Enabler W, thus please do not take this as a direct accusation to any individual or group of individuals. My intention is to state clearly without any degree of ambiguity what I believe to reasonably expect from a group of life long friends; that a disclosure of perceived conflicts of interests would happen in an open and honest manner so I can take appropriate action.

During this period I need your support, not your validation or agreement. My personal character dissection time has come and gone.


Enabler

[formflier]

I like the thought, yet a letter this long seems a bit "preachy".  (not really the happiest with the preachy word...but struggling to find a better one)

I think you can say the same thing in about 1 paragraph...2 at the most.

Will you accept the FF challenge to start chopping it down.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I'm not a man of few words... as you may have noticed. I guess I should have been more specific... is it worth saying anything however long or just leave things be. I just don't want to interact with anyone that I can't trust at the moment... or maybe never.

[formflier]

I "may" be for it...if it is a succinct message.

I would be curious to understand what your T thought would be accomplished by sending that.  Does your T have an opinion on more or less words? 

Note:  My natural writing state is very much like yours.  I want to cover all the points, angles and possibilities. 

That's great for thinking things through and assembling issues, yet when I look at your letter I'm not sure what your number 1 point is. 

1 thing..1 message..pick it and craft something around that.

How many people are we talking about?  Would they all be on the "to" line of an email?


Best,

FF

[Enabler]

This would be on a group whatsapp chat we have. There's 7 of them. They are smart people, lawyers, teachers, astrophysicists... they like arguing the point and you need to jam home the point so there is NO ambiguity.

My T's reaction was "Just send it, it's certainly long". I think he was keen for me to get it off my chest as it's been something that's bugging me for some time. I think he accepts that there is a high chance that friends try and help and actually become unhelpful and that this is a way of shining a light on things.

I'm naturally trusting and typically share information and detail. It concerns me that some of my friends my pass on this detail to their wives or directly to my W and to them they may feel like they are helping me by sharing this detail. I'm very sure she is convincingly portraying herself as the victim in all of this and soaking up the free 'helpful' "this is how he thinks" info. Since I'm rubbish at not sharing and being too trusting I figure the only way I can reasonably stop this nonsense is by removing myself from the group.

If I had to put a probability on me being right, I'd say 80%.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Enabler, Your T knows you best, but I vote for putting the letter on the back burner and reaching out to your friends directly for a one-on-one conversation, if you are so inclined.  It's doubtful to me that your letter will have the impact you seek.  Some things are better handled in a conversation than in a letter, in my view.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

I'm not against sending it...that's not the same as advising there is a better way.

7 people with whom you have a personal relationship..right?  (I want to make sure I have this right)

I would suggest you invite several of them, even best if you can all get together.  7 separate lunches seems like a bit of a high bar, yet that could be "best" because it would have the best chance of improving all 7 relationships.

What's the bottom line here.  

Are you trying to be "right"..."fire a warning shot across their bow"...or "improve relationships"  (please describe your intent if you have better words)

switching gears.

Does the divorce get "discussed" in this chat?  What is normally discussed there?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Cross post with LJ...

What he said...

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Hey Lucky Jim, I hear you but if I raise this in person there will be a discussion about it. I intentionally don't want a discussion about it. I want to put it out there and deal with it in a short sharp manner. We don't meet up all that often and when we do it's beer focused with side chats about stuff that's going on.

[Enabler]

The divorce is not discussed in this chat. Divorce is typically discussed in side chats with individuals or a few of them... apart from one time on holiday where they all just told me to leave and 'move on' and that they just wanted me to 'be happy'.

I guess this is an attempt to jolt people into thinking about what they are doing. Remind people that this is serious and not something I want them to be doing my bidding on the side for. I seriously mean that I will pull myself out the group for as long as it takes.

Our group has a long history of staying friends with people's ex girlfriends regardless of what went on. I need to know my friends are trustworthy and not acting as flying monkeys... I do not need flying monkeys.

[Lucky Jim]

I guess this is an attempt to jolt people into thinking about what they are doing. Remind people that this is serious and not something I want them to be doing my bidding on the side for. I seriously mean that I will pull myself out the group for as long as it takes.

Hey Enabler, Your expected outcome may be unrealistic.  Plus, once you send the letter it's out there and you can't take it back.

LJ

[Enabler]

I don’t think it’s unrealistic to expect my friends of over 25yrs to not go behind my back, not even giving me a head up that they’re doing it. Are these really friends? I’m not so sure it’s what I want from friends.

[Cat Familiar]

To be brutally frank, I started reading this and I glazed over.

Not only is it “preachy”, it seems bossy and creepy.

If I received this, not only would I think you were very controlling telling me what I can and cannot speak about.

If you’re concerned about what your friends are thinking, this missive may be setting yourself up for being perceived as behaving oddly and your friends might actually wonder about your emotional state.

This is not the Enabler I’ve come to know and admire on this site. I say go for a rewrite: make it concise, use the tools we teach here.

[GaGrl]

Coming in late here...My initial reaction was the same as FF and Cat. It is far too long, and I would describe it as controls ng.

I think the message can be sent in, at most, two short paragraphs. Let go of what might have taken place already ( I doubt anyone is going to jump to confess) and just ask for what you need under the current circumstances -- support without sharing confidential information that could make the settlement process more difficult than it needs to be.

Is that goal accurate?

[formflier]

First of all.  Do you know that some of them are "going behind your back?  Is the information reliable?

If so...go directly to them and bring it up

I'm not getting that vibe..but figured I would put that out there.  Be direct and succinct.

"Hey..this is uncomfortable and also important to clarify.  I heard xyz.  "

What I think you should do if there is no direct and reliable information.

Meet a couple of them for beers.

Then say this.

"Hey fellas, this divorce business is the pits and I want you to know how much your friendship means to me.  If you hear concerning things, it would mean a lot to me for you to come to me directly to clarify.  I'm sure I'll be buying you more beer over the next year or so...cheers.  Enabler"

Think about how I guy that says/does that comes across compared to a guy trying to control who people talk to/how they process things.

Cat Familiar makes a good point.  I didn't really take your letter initially as trying to control me (if I was a recipient, but I can easily see how anyone could take it that way.) 

I took it as "Oh dude...he must be in suckville.  I should buy him a beer."  I identified with your thought because I've been there.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I have no reliable information, but then I have no reliable information in my life at the moment and I’m constantly playing detective to guess what’s about to hot me in the chops next. Some things I’ve been right about, a few things I’ve found different evidence later down the line that has changed my conclusions about what did happen. I’ve learnt not to react to things and just soak in additional data.

I suspected some of them were speaking to her around a year ago, up till that point I’d not even considered they would and hence felt comfortable sharing my thoughts with them. After that point quite a few bits of puzzle fell into place that suggested they knew things they shouldn’t know as d not told them and there were no direct links for he said she said. None of them seem to ask me what’s going on yet all of them seem to know. I had vague conversations with a few of them and they kinda just brushed it off as “they’re just trying to help” or “they just gave her generic advice” or even denied it completely. However I’ve never actually said loud and clear, “guys, I think it’s only fair that you tell me on a super high level that there might be conflicts of interests so that I can take myself out the equation.”

It’s not the divorce settlement I’m concerned about although actually they were utterly clueless about the process when I discussed it with them (I’m the first one in the group to go through this). What I find most dangerous is that they are recruited or perceived  as reliable fonts of knowledge about how I think, what my motivations are for my actions and what my ultimate end game intentions are. I don’t want to do this in a wishy washy way but then again I don’t want to specifically point out an individual since I don’t have proof beyond reasonable doubt that these individuals are meddling.

They’ve made it very clear that they don’t believe in personality disorders nor frankly have any desire to bother to complicate the matter further than “she doesn’t love him any more”...” jog on and get over it,  let’s have a beer, stop spoiling the banter whilst I’m trying to have fun.” I think most of them want it done with as it’s like a fungus in the group they want cut out so they can get back to ‘normality’. Like group family events don’t happen much anymore or at least none that I get invited to since I guess no one wants to organise something and not invite me yet their wives don’t want me to come because they think I’m “abusive” or maybe believe that I’m obstructive in the divorce process... or that I should have just left like a good boy and done what W told me to do. This coupled with the sense that my W is exhausting more local sources of pity and validation of her victimhood, her tentacles are having to reach that little bit deeper into the proverbial barrel or quality sources of “am i okay?”

I don’t want this to be glossed over as things typically are in our group.

I dunno... despondent siiiiigh

[formflier]

OK...I think I'm getting the concern.

Your concern is:

Wife has approached some in the group trying to get "intel" (I'm still curious about what..but she is sniffing around).  You are pretty sure they gave up some information and even more sure that the information they gave up was erroneous/you wouldn't agree with "their take on Enabler" (whatever it was she was sniffing about)

There is a secondary concern that the group is very "surfacey" and issues don't get handled or really even discussed.  Not a big deal for most things, but your divorce is a "big thing"...not something to be glossed over.

Close?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

100% nailed it

3rd concern is that she will get them to encourage me to do the things that she wants (and they want) e.g. leave the family home and do her dirty work re divorce. If any of them tried that conversation it would be a 'drop the mike and walk out' moment.

Thanks for clarifying FF, top work

[formflier]

OK...got it.

Let me turn this over in my head a bit today.  I'm still a fan of in person...I need to think about how to express the principle behind it.

Best,

FF

[Lucky Jim]

I don’t think it’s unrealistic to expect my friends of over 25yrs to not go behind my back, not even giving me a head up that they’re doing it. Are these really friends? I’m not so sure it’s what I want from friends.

Hey E, I'm not talking about what may have already transpired in terms of friends going behind your back, which I agree is a cr#ppy thing to do.  I'm talking about your expectations concerning the impact of your proposed letter in terms of "jolting" your so-called friends.  It's the kind of thing that, in my view, is better handled in person.

You may find out, as I did when I separated from my BPDxW, that some people are not really your friends.  It's a winnowing process.

LJ

[Waddams]

Just one guy's opinion - when I divorced, I went through this. Most of our friend network got an earful from nowXW about how awful I was, never heard a word about the reality of her cheating, running up debt, and horrible treatment of me. They never approached me or asked me, and really just kind of "white knighted" her en masse.

I went no contact with the lot of them without ever speaking a word to them, with the exception that I had a run-in with one at grocery store a few years later. Light chit-chat, said person made a comment that I felt had a hidden meaning behind it, and I did actually state "well, i haven't been cheated on anymore since the divorce, I haven't had a single overdraft letter since then, not having crazy credit card debt run up on me now, and have managed to pay off the debt I did get stuck with that she ran up, so I'm actually in a great spot in life now and loving it! Paying her child support is far cheaper than being married to her!"

Said person's eyes about bugged out their head. I later got a few FB requests from the old group, and promptly deleted them as soon as they came in. I figured I didn't need to rummage through the trash for things I'd discarded in the past.

So all that to say that I could have sent letters and what not, but it was far more effective to be silent and let the truth come out later. It's not your job to correct all the lies. It's just your job to set boundaries to protect yourself from those lies. Easiest way to do that is to simply cut ties, let those that don't buy it show it, and otherwise go rebuild a new and better life.

[Enabler]

Hey LJ,

Yeah, that's kinda the conclusion I've come to re winnowing... and I'd kinda rather do that process sooner rather than later. My suspicion is that anyone who is going behind my back will take offence, and anyone who isn't will breeze over it and think "he's been a bit too serious there, but hey ho, it's nothing to do with me... who on earth out of us lot would do that?"

Enabler

[Enabler]

Thanks Waddams, issue is, this core of mates from when I was a kid isn't saying or acting any differently towards me. If anything I suspect (although don't know, I can only suppose based on my knowledge of their character over the last 25yrs) they're attempting to get me to a better place knowing I have chosen to not enable the divorce. In many respects I guess you could say they may think they know better than me and aren't respecting and supporting my choices and 'superior' visibility over the situation.

They have made it very clear they 'know' what is 'best' for my happiness and it's not a far stretch of the imagination to see them attempting to achieve that via coaching her in the right direction.

It's ever so rewarding when the opportunity to throw facts at lies comes up. I've let a few opportunities slip through my fingers and they're regrettable, but I have had a few I've had the ability to stay cool, calm and clinical about my delivery... something I'm not always good at doing given my emotional reaction to situations.

Enabler 

[formflier]

What do you know and can prove?

What do you suspect and why? 

Be strict with yourself when answering.

I've got two big thoughts.

From professional and "personal" investigations I've done, I will assure you that if you go looking for trouble, you will find it.  (unlikely to find the trouble you think your will find)


Perhaps consider the trouble you will "cause" as well.  100% of the investigations I have done have "take a toll" or "had a cost".  In retrospect, sometimes the cost is higher than the "results".

Do you have enough trouble in your life right now?

2nd thought.

The most effecting and telling things I've ever discovered came to me not because I "investigated" but came because I was vigilant and "had my light on" when things came across my path.  Again..applies to personal and professional.

Much much less energy expended in case number 2 AND I learned much much more.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Plus (go big picture with me).

Do you want to be "winnowing" or "building" relationships?

Which one is better for you?

Best,

FF

[Waddams]

Honestly - it's none of their business. This smacks of them thinking they know better, trying to put themselves in a superior position over you - how on earth do you need to justify or be in any position where you need to satisfy them in any of this, regardless of how passive/subtle it is? You don't owe them anything, you don't have to explain yourself to them, and they definitely shouldn't get to have a say in how you proceed this divorce or how you come out of it.

Gotta say, if the above interpretation is correct, I really think the answer is boundaries and distance. If it leads to 25 year relationships ending, maybe that's a good thing? Me personally, when I went through this, I realized the same life tendencies in me that had me getting into BPD relationships also had me getting into friendships with people that weren't that great as well. I realized a lot of them were the friend versions of my nowXW and carried the same BS in them in a lot of ways.

Broken attracts broken. When you heal and grow, the broken you'd been attracted to, had been attracted to you, goes away, opening up new room in your life for new and better relationships overall. Don't be afraid of the change, it's for the best once you get through it.

[Cat Familiar]

Wife has approached some in the group trying to get "intel" (I'm still curious about what..but she is sniffing around).  You are pretty sure they gave up some information and even more sure that the information they gave up was erroneous/you wouldn't agree with "their take on Enabler" (whatever it was she was sniffing about)

There is a secondary concern that the group is very "surfacey" and issues don't get handled or really even discussed.  Not a big deal for most things, but your divorce is a "big thing"...not something to be glossed over.

3rd concern is that she will get them to encourage me to do the things that she wants (and they want) e.g. leave the family home and do her dirty work re divorce. If any of them tried that conversation it would be a 'drop the mike and walk out'
moment.

OK, here you have the meat of your message. Though I’d agree with others that in person conversations could be better, I also see the benefit of writing a short note.

My concern with your long letter was that it would seem like browbeating and could offend people who are in your corner.

[Cat Familiar]

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