How Do You Get Your Kid to Talk to You?

[Klera]

I struggled with the Subject Title...but that's as blunt as possible.

I'm going to apologize up front for this extremely long post. I have trouble keeping it short.  But I'm also pretty exasperated.

I'd really like to hear from other parents who this might resonate with.  Any suggestions?  I've done a bit of of homework on parental alienation but I'm not entirely sure that this is the cause of my SD's behaviour although it's a contributing factor.   I also accept that it could be just typical teen stuff,  independence, challenging authority, hormones? a first taste of freedom...but something is terribly wrong and we can't seem to move forward.   You guys are amazing with your experience and wisdom here. 

Soo...
My SD16 refuses to speak with her dad.  Period.  She has stopped answering (his) texts altogether and any of his attempts to reach out to her.  She is not taking the bait. Period.   She has a full time summer job (1st one for her) hostessing in a pub and is 'very busy' and has not visited her dad and I all summer.   H has suggested they get together sometime, D didn't respond.  H sends random texts: "love you, hope you're doing well" no response.   Recently H said, "how are you feeling going back to school?"  no response (that was three days ago).   

How's work?  "I'm busy"  which was when she first started her job beginning of July.  My gawd.  Unbelievable cheekiness.  This is unusual and now we're coming to the realization she's showing this cruel streak and/or mom has been training her to be this way towards her dad?  I hate to even go there. It almost feels like she's a completely different kid than the one I used to know.  Or was that all an act?  Her wearing a mask, one for us and then back to the 'Queen'.  I'm sure this kid has no doubt, juggled two separate houses (that don't communicate) with expertise, in that she's played both parents independently just to survive the wrath of her mom.   

He's keeping it light, reaching out as often as he feels but it's becoming just hopeless, really.  Every time he does, he says he feels kicked in the head when she doesn't respond and we discuss it but then we have to stop because it can drag on so we put a limit on how much we drudge this up.
This is very hard to watch, believe me. H wants the door kept open, if and when she's ready.     I know she's troubled but she absolutely refuses to talk to her dad.  Only silence now.  What hurts the most is no response at all to even "love you".    It just sickens me and it's heartbreaking. He is the most loving, generous, available, open...he's never given the kids to fear him, to hate him, to be this way. Ever.  The exact opposite.  He's been the solid one, the one that fixes anything that's wrong...(you know who you are out there too). 

Leading up to summer there was a 'blip' with her behaviour, skipping classes, tests, assignments, avoiding school pretty much most of  the month of May.  Not sleeping etc.   H intervened, got D back to school while mom was caught out not 'being able' to (enabling her to fail/miss school instead).  Students need a parent's okay so we know her mom knew fully well how much D was absent and not attending and kept it quiet. No doubt I believe her mom knew she was contributing or neglecting D's stress and avoiding feeling judged (mom) for her 'bad' parenting.      D did relatively well her final term despite a huge chunk of absences, she's a straight A student.   We don't know fully the why's only that she claims she had some friend trouble but I think that was a convenient answer but not the entire story here.  Not enough to miss so much school.   She would fib about all sorts of little insignificant things and would not open up, very vague,  about just about everything.  School is a safe topic at least discussed and one that her dad keeps a tight watch on, her grades and school in general.  He never discusses or asks about life with her mom and the only time he tried, an instant shut down that it was 'only school' that was bugging her.  hhhmm...yeah, right.   Huge wall there.

I'm aware this may have to do with social stresses (fitting in or being excluded) but also it was explained to me that kids of pwBPD have more stresses than other kids have to face or experience.  No kidding.  That's an understatement if ever there was one.  I also disapprove of social media, it must be hard to grow up with this stuff which can cause more grief, just my personal opinion.  It's not healthy.   Entertaining, yes, but that's about it.  I don't believe there is any bullying involved either but then again,  kids can be cruel to each other and SD seems to have developed this 'cutting you out of my life' nonsense.  We've seen her cut friends off and on, this instability in relationships she has.

D saw a therapist leading into summer, about 8-10 sessions that we know of.  H paid for it. T said 'she's pretty candid'.   D went to her GP (on her own) and was put on a small dose of a mild antidepressant to see if that would help her mood/sleeping etc.  H doesn't know anything else other than it appears that with her job, she may have tackled 'it' (?depression) for the summer.  H contacted D's GP prior to summer to please follow up with D since she was becoming more distant (worse) and he was concerned not to mention the pills and to please follow up with D.  We don't even know if D is still taking pills or not.   That D was 'having trouble telling the truth' as well.    The pulling away behaviour started pretty much as soon a dad caught onto D's lack of attendance and finally contacted the school head directly of his concern and that was getting serious.

We've confirmed that there is parental alienation going on.   Our family friend who is an honorary 'aunt' to D plus a therapist (her profession), got together with D one evening after work a few weeks back.   Friend says:  she feels that pwBPD mom has been 'working on her',  found out that mom has lied to D about H whether or not my H and I wanted her to visit.  Family friend has known H for decades and is a huge support.     This is the first summer that the kids are without a visiting schedule in place, therefore mom went to town with the brainwashing just prior to summer and throughout, we believe (obviously).   Keep in mind that H and D in the past had a solid, strong, loving relationship.   I've been a stepmom to her for 10 years (had my anniversary of meeting the kids this month but just swept any sort of celebration under the rug since D has gone awol).   You can't imagine how hurt he is and so completely confused.   So am I.

I understand about dysregulation and triggers in a pwBPD but I don't know what could have possibly caused SD to alienate her dad to this degree, it makes no sense at all.  We've been exchanging kids for ten years, it's not like suddenly there is this new conflict going on between houses   Other than for mom to mess with the kids having flexibility to chose to contact and visit their dad is one thing but this coldness SD is displaying is another. Mom must be going to town with some nasty lies and 'working on' D for full control and no doubt enjoying this rift between D and her dad.   Like some 'win' in her column.   

One footnote:  During the meeting of SD16 and family friend, mom was texting SD..we don't know what was said other than that.   My spidey sense is that mom has a tight reign over SD and probably was quite threatened by her meeting up with family friend if she knew who it was. 

Thanks again.




 

[livednlearned]

Would H be willing to write letters to her?

It might be a phase where she is testing what it's like to reject him. Often people do to others how they feel they're being treated. Perhaps she fantasized that he would put up a bigger fight to keep her there, and she's dejected, feeling that yet again she has to take care of herself.

"See? You didn't protect me again and now I'm with her, and this is what you wanted all along." That kind of thing.

SD25 will often ice out her dad for reasons I can't really understand. He is so generous and reliable and responsive and supportive and asks for almost nothing in return. But she will drip with icicles when he walks in the room and give him no information except for curt answers after talking excitedly to me for an hour.

Since no court action is likely (is that right?) then maybe the only way through this is to write letters that H either keeps and gives to her when she's older, or sends them to her now (riskier, since she may share them with mom?)

[MeandThee29]

What you don't want is to turn it into a parental estrangement situation where you are giving up. Regardless of the kid's reactions, parents who give up may ultimately not have a place in that kid's heart. As humans, we don't want to interact with people that we perceive as not being there for us, regardless of the circumstances. And teenagers are of course fickle about their relationships as they transition to more peer relationships for their support.

I was accused of parental alienation even though mine are beyond the age for custody issues. I've always been very careful to not block any kind of contact. I also have never told them what to do in terms of handling contact. I take my sorrows elsewhere. What I have done is talk a lot about healthy relationships and boundaries. Both have discussed this with other adults and their friends as part of working it out themselves.

I struggled with a lot of guilt about this until a friend pointed out that it really was a case of parental estrangement on his part. There has been infrequent contact, and only a handful of times with empathy for what they feel. A couple of times a year if that. My lawyer also observed that fathers who move far away from their children are giving a message that they don't want to be close to their children. Mine could have gone anywhere and chose far away. And our young adults have seen the hard financial realities and how the divorce is wearing on me even though I don't share details with them. They've asked me how a caring father could treat his wife that way and what that means for their relationship with him and other hard questions. But the reality is that he hasn't been there for them in a healthy way, and they don't trust him.

So don't give up. Don't make her think that you don't care but respect that she has to work through this too. Don't go deep, but show caring. Sixteen is young for making sense of this.

[Panda39]

Leading up to summer there was a 'blip' with her behaviour, skipping classes, tests, assignments, avoiding school pretty much most of  the month of May.  Not sleeping etc.   H intervened, got D back to school while mom was caught out not 'being able' to (enabling her to fail/miss school instead).  Students need a parent's okay so we know her mom knew fully well how much D was absent and not attending and kept it quiet. No doubt I believe her mom knew she was contributing or neglecting D's stress and avoiding feeling judged (mom) for her 'bad' parenting.      D did relatively well her final term despite a huge chunk of absences, she's a straight A student.   We don't know fully the why's only that she claims she had some friend trouble but I think that was a convenient answer but not the entire story here.  Not enough to miss so much school.   She would fib about all sorts of little insignificant things and would not open up, very vague,  about just about everything.  School is a safe topic at least discussed and one that her dad keeps a tight watch on, her grades and school in general.  He never discusses or asks about life with her mom and the only time he tried, an instant shut down that it was 'only school' that was bugging her.  hhhmm...yeah, right.   Huge wall there.

This jumped out at me as a   that SD is in distress (I missed almost all of 9th grade back in the day - because I felt invisible...negative attention is still attention), or mom could keeping SD with her to sooth mom (which might be why she keep the absences on the down-low).  My Partner's uBPDxw pulled their oldest daughter out of 9th grade to home/on-line school her.  Against the wishes of her dad and the advice of her teacher and school principal.  She did absolutely nothing that year but stay home with her mother. We think mom kept daughter home to soothe her and fill the void dad left when they separated. Dad was so desperate to get his daughter back to school he was hoping she'd get picked up for Truancy.   She had a 0.0GPA for 9th grade (she was an A student & Teacher today) that affected her college choices later on.

My Partner was able to prove neglect and the court awarded him Education Decision Making in the final divorce decree.

Are you and your husband in Therapy, I think there is a strong likelihood of Parental Alienation and if your not already seeing a Therapist I would consider it.  

For my Partner the key was being able to see his kids and in a sense he was lucky because his ex didn't drive so every time the kids needed to go somewhere he was the driver so there never was a complete lack of contact.

Have you and your husband tried showing up at the Pub for lunch/dinner when she's working?

Before I go I want to acknowledge how incredibly hard this is to go through and witness, this kind of stuff was why I arrived here one (toxic) angry Panda.  You just want to take these kids by the shoulders, look them in the eye, and ask them what the hell is wrong with them!  The thing with Parental Alienation is there is a puppet master who is pulling the strings the kids really don't fully know what's going on.

Hang in there, read up on Parental Alienation, and keep the lines of communication open.

Panda39

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  I too suggest sending letters (two per month?), sprinkled in with weekly (twice weekly?) texts like "Thinking of you, hope all is well" and "Hope to see you sometime, would love to buy you lunch".  Better to try and fail in my humble opinion.  It's a tough situation.  Good luck.  A very difficult situation.  Hopefully, it turns better soon. jdc

[Klera]

Would H be willing to write letters to her?

He wants to continue with the olive branch extension remain via text (for now).
 

Perhaps she fantasized that he would put up a bigger fight to keep her there, and she's dejected, feeling that yet again she has to take care of herself.

Interesting.  There's always that possibility.  He's reminded me that he has often told D how much she is welcome at our house.

History:  In 8th grade, D also had a minor 'blip' (slight breakdown) and missed 5 days of school.  Once again her mom had put her head in the sand/enabling/ignoring her (left her in her room/neglect), perhaps dysregulated which explains her keeping things quiet, exposing her inability to parent effectively (fear of judgement).   Once we found out about D supposed being 'sick' and a week of absence, H contacted ex via email and suggested that D, "needed a change of scenery, and that he felt best if he picked her up to come over to our house".  Honestly if you can envision this scenario: no sudden movements, back up slowly, be very quiet when dealing with this woman.   Mom responded that D finally (like magic) was in the shower and recognized a sudden upward mood shift (thank gawd for that much, right?)  Deep down, I know her mother must have been gritting her teeth as it's all about fault (hers):  "can't be me" distorted denial. "I can't help my kid" "I'm a bad parent" instead of kid's needs.    D stayed with us for 2 nights and H got her back to school even if it meant 1/2 days to start, which she did.  It had to do with being overloaded, stress about too much reading for English and kid panicked but that she obviously couldn't reach out for help, she just hid in her room and mom left her there.
 
 After day 2 at school, that evening D became a bit anxious displaying like she needed to return to mom soon.    At the time of D coming over, her mom (according to her email) was not comfortable with letting D go with an open ended/non firm return time.  That, my friends, is a huge  memory as I recall this.    So we can recognize to see that two years ago, this sheer controlling effect she has  and this 'don't you leave (abandon) momma for too long'. 

Point:  At that time, in Grade 8 H could see that he needed to keep our door wide open and he offered D flat out invite to come to live with us for as long as she wanted and that she was always welcome here.   I swear it's like it goes in one ear and out the other.  That was the last thing I said to D prior to this summer starting, and I quote to SD: "You know you're welcome here anytime, right?" (her head was down and she just muttered affirmative mumble)  I continued as she sat in her dad's car and I'm leaning in: "All you have to do is let your dad know and he'll make it happen"  In other words, just tell your dad for gawd's sake what you want.

Soo...other than printing t-shirts with 'door's always open here' and painting; "please come over"  on our foreheads...? I dunno.

Conclusion: When family friend told us most recently that D opened up to at least tell her that 'mom told me that it was dad's idea to go to every second weekend visits' and implied that dad did not want them (via mom's lying).  I think my breath stopped and my lungs felt hot as I could not fathom this blatant revelation, this PROOF that we suspected was happening.   Mom was, indeed, spewing lies about her dad (us) in order to keep her and turn her away from him.  I always felt that the bond could not be messed with and that was the one thing that we had, the most important thing.  You have no idea how hard that was to find out.  I'm writing this now and my heart is still heavy.

Sorry...lost track of myself...bla bla bla...

Oh yes, I truly believe that mom has been playing victim, that she has parentified (?is that correct word) D into helping her, being there for mom,  that she needs her that nobody is there for mom, FOG...which is why the kids protect the 'weaker' more vulnerable helpless parent?  I understand the concept of what's happening but it makes me sick about the distorted lies she is able to make the kids believe about their dad.  This is unthinkable to me despite the reality of the situation.   

There is also issues about money.  The mother is fully financially fine.  Period.  She gets ample child support (via divorce agreement).  Yet, we see her living off of it and often the kids have either very little stuff, it's cheap crap or she isn't bothering doing or spending the absolute minimum she can get away with.  Once SS14 went to his dad for bus money because mom couldn't be bothered and he also borrowed from a teacher to get home once, that we know of.   I just cannot swallow this lack of ability to care or provide despite her bank account balance is not the issue here. 

Therefore, SD16 getting a job:  My H says, "just watch, her mother will be charging her rent soon"  (sarcasm).   I can't wait for those kids to grow up and be out of their mother's grasp.  Free at last! lordy they're free at last! I will be shouting.  To me they seem like prisoners or hostages...no exaggeration.

No, I don't formally have a T for myself although I should.  H has a few outlets, has support via school (they understand I believe that mom isn't quite all 'there' since it's dad that has to come to the rescue each time).

Oh yeah:  H contacted the school (D's counsellor) today.   Asking them that since D had a rocky end to last year, to please keep an eye on her as she transitions into this one and beyond.  I was soo happy.  I told him he needs to put an insurance policy into place and be proactive, like, now before trouble hits.  That way the school can be held accountable but also they just sent out a big notice that all absences, sicknesses etc have to have a parents explanation (not just an 'ok' or authorizing it).  HA!  this email went out to all parents. And yeah, mumsy probably had moment of 'oh crap' I have to be held accountable? what's the world coming to...(wink, sarcasm).

I guess let's see what happens this fall and I do predict that borderline mom will soon (if not already) with stress of the new school year, school new rules of absences and us watching closely, dysregulate and come down on D.  At that time, we have to be ready for her to reach out to her dad because honestly I don't think this kid can keep this distance up forever.   We aren't giving up, that is certain.  I know she has to believe she and her brother are always welcome, always loved and we aren't going anywhere. 

Thanks for your responses, friends!      I do appreciate it.

[livednlearned]

Do you wonder if SD16 was trying to communicate to you and H through family friend?

Just wondering what you could do with that information that's proactive.

"How's it going" or "Let me know if you want to come over" or "Our doors are always open"

is very different than

"I miss you and wish you were here. I wanted to give you freedom to choose and now that you're not here, I'm wondering if I made a big mistake. Can we talk?"

What do you think?

[Klera]

Very interesting, LNL! 

This stuff is so complicated.  I don't know what to believe with family friend. SD initiated or suggested she and her 'aunt' (friend) 'go out after work' which was a quick/shortish dinner.  This is all via H so I'm interpreting.  H and friend are in frequent contact with each other.  H has been non invasive/pushy about this, in that a) he doesn't/didn't ask much other than what friend was willing to share.   Friend is also a registered T family counselling.   b) he's glad D feels she can reach out and have a neutral or this friend can be trusted to be a middle person.  So answer  to your question is yes, I believe it was a way for D to communicate with us.

Having said that, we are also interpreting this contact with friend as the message:  "see, I don't have to come to your house to see my aunt/friend, I can see her whenever I choose" sort of independence.  We don't know if friend has been told something in confidence (promised not to tell her dad) or not but there is a solid possibility there.  In which case, I'm a p.o'd because I'm not all that comfortable or whatever about friend plopping herself in the middle not to mention having or keeping secrets or D using her (triangulation scenario?).  If that makes sense. Keep in mind we simply don't trust the kid right now, even if she's hurting or troubled, she's treating her D terribly and hurting him too.   I mentioned this to H but he says he's happy that D is reaching out to friend.  Friend has revealed to us that she's convinced that mom is 'working on' D.   Friend says that D is depressed and hurting.  Okay, so is dad...yeah? what else.   Friend has facilitated or highly encouraged H to keep reaching out to D.   He replies that he has and still is, but every time he does, D does not answer him.    It's at the point now where she has stopped completely (no reply, not even one word answers).  Friend got in touch with H again saying that she herself is worried that D has not gotten in touch, since I'm sure she has encouraged D to reach out to her dad too.   So that's what's going on there. 

"

"How's it going" or "Let me know if you want to come over" or "Our doors are always open"

is very different than

"I miss you and wish you were here. I wanted to give you freedom to choose and now that you're not here, I'm wondering if I made a big mistake. Can we talk?"

What do you think?

Very valid indeed, and I wish that could be something he could say to her.  I'm often prompting him with suggestions.   He's been through so much in his life with conflict (relationships, family of origin etc) that his nerves are shot, basically and he tries very hard to protect himself, I guess is the best way to describe him.  Soo...I'm like:  "you need to invite her over, either try to speak with her on the phone or whatever, but we (or H himself) need to sit her down, face to face, eye ball to eye ball and ask (WTF) is wrong with you?"  "we can't go on like this" "we have to discuss things" You name it, I'm praying for it.   

Not that it would happen that way (aggressive or threatening), but I'm so exasperated.  I'm such a no BS person and highly value honest and open communication, which we've never really had the luxury of having with these kids.  Hindsight is that D (over the years) now that I reflect, has fibbed to me several times about the tiniest of things that are insignificant now, but I got wind of, or my spidey sense was peaking a couple of years ago when I kind of caught her out.  I didn't indicate that I was angry (opposite) but I've often wanted to say to her, "look, in this house we tell the truth, got it?" kind of no nonsense approach.  I let a lot slide, maybe I shouldn't but as you well know, being a stepmom is tricky  you don't want to alienate them on their brief visits...Lost track...oh yeah...Walls, censoring, you name it with these kids.  The mom has truly trained them well, I believe. Either she has extracted via manipulation (acting sweet) anything she has needed or wanted to know about this  house (me and H) but if ANY conversation, and I do mean anything veers towards revealing or mentioning their life with mom or mom herself (simple, basic, non invasive questions, even neutral, respectful, non judging) that wall goes right up.  D has perfected changing the subject like an expert.   Discussions, communication with these kids...?  super awkward and tricky.  Now we find ourselves with this 16 year old so tightly sealed up like a can, how in gawd's name do we even start?

I dislike this going into 'hiding', the cowardness of this. Sorry, but that's how I feel.  "Talk to your dad, for gawd's sake" is what's in my head all of the time.  She just seems either scared or just flat out stubborn and sticking her heels in the ground with this no contact or answering him crap.  "I know this is scary, but we have to learn to talk to each other and you need to trust me(us/dad) and be able to reach out if you're having trouble..."  I did say a version of that to her just prior to summer.  But got me nowhere. 

I hope that clarifies more.  This is why I need a T obviously!  .  I'm a young 53, and I've had a crap load of life experience already, have some wisdom etc, logical, practical...like the SuperTramp song...support wise, I have you guys who know what this is like.   I'm not interested in paying out a ton of money to someone to hold my hand and find out why I'm feeling this way or whatever...I also have our friend whom I have to admit, has been very supportive to H (she's getting her PhD too so she's pretty clever).   

Thanks, LNL, for your wisdom and guidance.  Very helpful indeed.
cheers!

[ForeverDad]

The last time I went to court was when already had full custody and was again seeking change from equal time to majority time.  I had a list of her obstructions and games.  One of her favorites was messing with exchanges.  This was the first time recordings of the events was submitted to court in the two day case.  The decision cited the primary factor was disparagement and included this: "In the tapes Mother is often yelling so loudly that it is difficult to endure listening to her."

So I got majority time... but only during the school year.  Why?  Our conflict wasn't limited to the school year.  Well, the school also testified that she caused a scene at a school camping event.  And I provided a school tardy list where she had 18 or so tardies.  That's when I found out how important the court viewed school issues, it got more attention (action?) than our constant conflict.

[Klera]

Wow. Thanks ForeverDad.

Fascinating re your legal/court experiences.    I forgot to answer a question re our legal position.   The basic short answer is (that I'm not known for one..ha ha..I've retained my humour) no, H has not spoken or had contact with his lawyer for a few years now.  Cost, yes, is one factor but as he says to me, "I'm not spending 500 bucks to get my lawyer to send her lawyer a letter that just gets burned" basically (no resolution) or the cost of court action would only be if he went for full custody which, frankly would be an expensive, living nightmare of hell fighting with this woman.   The only time court was involved was a judge granting the divorce papers/final stamping before she, the judge questioned ex as to how she comes up with her half of the childrens' expenses ie:  "why isn't she employed?".   He's managed to stay out of court thus far and he tweaks rules/boundaries with ex as he goes along.   Everything has been agreed between the two via two or three parental agreements in the past, which she, the ex, breached every frigging time she was able to.   Hence H could no longer parallel parent with her after four years of hell (her trouble making) trying to do so.   (sighing and breathe)  Coming to the decision of every second weekends instead of 50-50 was NOT, and I do mean it, an easy nor quick decision.  I was here.  I saw the stress he was under and it was taking a toll on his health (the ex and parallel parenting).  It was put the oxygen on first, time.  And that's excluding my stress, which quite frankly I was willing to suck it up every time and all of the time, in order for us to have a chance at being a normal, healthy family that spent as much time together as possible.  To give H another try at experiencing or attempting at, happiness with his kids with him. 

H has had discussions with kids about University. Recently SS14 1/2 mentioned to H his concerns over cost and/or questioned him re expense.  I was not present for this conversation hence H told me that his interpretation was that the ex was now possibly discussing this with kids, probably with the realization that her child support will soon come to a hault and then what?  Oh my lord, her parasitic ways will be starved.   

Point being, is that we have offered SS to think about living with us then.  H has not formally made any announcements but he is quietly grooming or introducing the idea towards S and he appears (according to H) keen on this.   I often with wide eyes tell H to be very careful/delicate what and how he discusses with kids since it ALL ends up back to the "Queen" at some point and we don't want to have to deal with that mess as much as possible.   

I doubt that at this point he will go for full custody.  I think at this stage of the parental game of life, that will see SD through to graduating high school, that's assuming that she won't quit first (over my dead body - kidding - I have no power here)..

We had hoped that D was going to slowly 'vote with her feet' and gravitate over here.  Nope.   The opposite.  Who saw that coming? not us.  That's for sure.   

Thanks for listening! and anything you have to share is greatly appreciated.
cheers,
hope everyone out there is doing well, schools back soon, so don't know if this is a good thing or not?