Angry, Scared, Devastated, and So Much More

[Angie59]

Hi everybody!

I have a question I am wondering about regarding custody of a child.  I have posted many times before, so some of you familiar with me and the situations I have been going through. 

Just today, my son found out that his ex-uBPD got engaged.  At this time, there is no legal paperwork between my son and her, and they are supposed to be getting this together, but they have not done so yet, don't know why exactly. 

So now I'm wondering if she might be putting it off until the actual marriage takes place (which I have no idea when that would be), so that it can look like she is in a more stable situation than my son, a single dad.  The difference between her (as I know are u-BPD traits) is that she is probably still in the "love-bombing" stages with her new fiance and is trying to get her claws deep enough in him so she can create a more stable looking situation.  Her now fiance was there with her the very first night that the children were allowed to stay with her, and slept there in her bed.  (not the greatest judgement call in my opinion).  My son on the other hand has been son some dating apps and has gone on a handful of dates, but does not introduce anyone to his son, as he feels he should feel much more serious with the person before introducing another "new" person into his life.  Our grandson is only 3. 

I am upset for a number of reasons.  The whole 5 years my son and his ex-uBPD were together, she never said she was in a relationship with anyone on Facebook.  When they got engaged, she never posted one picture, changed her status, mentioned begin engaged, and the night of the engagement, she ate dinner with her parents and sent my son home with the kids.  No party, no announcement, it was like I did even know if she gave him back the ring or not!  But today, wow, plastered all over social media, she is in Tennessee for 3 days (no wonder the trip), and my heart if breaking for my son with the difference in how he was treated versus what is going on now.

I'm wondering if she really "loves" this guy and never did my son, if that is possible for her to even love someone, or is it all just the love bombing stage and an attempt to get full custody of our GS3 (she already has full custody of GD5), by showing her situation to be more stable as a family atmosphere. 

Does this sound to anyone like this might be happening?  Is this something that my son should be concerned about, perhaps consult his attorney about it? 

Aside from the legal parts of it all, my heart is broken for him because she literally made a fool of him in a public arena (social media) and treated him terribly for the last 2 years of the relationship - and poof!  After 6-8 months or so with this guy, engaged already!  My son is still paying on bills she racked up along with the bill for the engagement ring.  She financially drained him and he now has so little for legal fees.  My husband and I are both disabled and cannot help out much at all.  I so afraid of losing our grandchild to her and that would be unbearable as I have already seen the damage she has done to her daughter. 

Am I looking at this all wrong?  Feeling devastated for a number of reasons!  Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

[livednlearned]

Does this sound to anyone like this might be happening?  Is this something that my son should be concerned about, perhaps consult his attorney about it? 

Can you remind us what the current visitation schedule is?

Your son is living with you for the time being?

[Angie59]

Hi livednlearned!

My son has his own residence, a house.  He has had it for 3 years.  At the point, he has does have a lawyer on retainer, which he has only paid $500.00 toward so far and still owes $1000.00.  There is on legal binding agreement between the two of them at this point.  I cannot tell you what is causing the delay - can't get a real straight answer from my son when asked.

The visitation schedule he and his ex-uBPD are sticking to themselves is something she came up with on her own.  It doesn't sound ideal to me for our GS3, but I think it is for a good reason.  It is as follows:  Mon/Tues - Mom
Wed-Thurs -Dad
Friday - they alternate this day
Saturday - Mom
Sunday - Dad

Whew!  Right?

[ForeverDad]

The parenting schedule does appear to be equal time.  However, long term it would be more practical for them to alternate weekends, not split them.  Besides fewer exchanges, they each would have a full weekend with their child and a full weekend off to do whatever.

What they're doing is very close to a 2-2-5-5 schedule.
 Mon-Tue overnights - Mom
 Wed-Thu overnights - Dad
 Fri-Sat-Sun overnights - alternated between parents

[Angie59]

The reason the schedule is set up the way it is, is because of the uex-bpd's work schedule.  She works at a bar on Thursday nights and Sunday nights and doesn't get home until after 2:00 a.m., so someone has to keep the kids for the night.  

Also wondering if anyone feels that the fact she is now engaged (and who knows, maybe soon to be married) if this would give her a step up on the custody front  - more stable home because it's more like a "family," versus my son being just him as a single dad?

[livednlearned]

Status quo tends to play a deciding role in our high-conflict custody battles. The fact that she can agree to and comply with a visitation schedule without a court order will say volumes to the judge. Same for your son.

If your son were to try and get full custody or limit her visitation to supervised, then there might be a negligible impact from the stabilizing influence of the new significant other.

Step parents are a mixed bag for parents here. Sometimes the new partner has a stabilizing effect on the BPD traits, and that's a positive gain for the child.

I don't think a re-marriage will do much to influence a judge if that's what you are concerned about?

Each piece of the BPD story is one data point to consider. It's adding up those data points together to make a compelling narrative that tends to cut through the noise. And some courts rule on very technical legal points that can sometimes seem counter to common sense. Of course, that can swing in your son's favor too. He might get 50/50 simply because the court can't tell whose the more stable parent because both are saying the other one is a bad apple.

Meanwhile, and just as importantly, you are grieving for the hurt your son feels and that is hard, Angie. There are a lot of broken hearts healing and mending on these boards from the devaluation and rejection of a BPD ex partner. It is a particularly exquisite pain and I hope he finds relief during his healing process.

It does happen.  

It can take a while.

[Angie59]

Thank you livednlearned.  Yes, you are absolutely right.  When I heard she got engaged and it was plastered all over social media my heart sank to the ground for my son, as she did not ever even mention being in a relationship with my son, much less celebrate any type engagement they supposedly had.  It's like she was living with my son, reaping all the benefits, child-care wise, financially, etc...but gave nothing in return.  Yes, my heart is broken for him.  Is it a "mom" thing or what?  It doesn't seem as though my husband really "feels" so strongly as I do regarding hurt, concern, etc...I don't know, it could just be me being overly sensitive.

I'm sorry, I digressed there a bit.  I wanted to ask if you would clarify for me the first couple of paragraphs you wrote.  For instance about the two of them making up and complying with a schedule on their own.  Do you see this as a good thing or bad?  She made up the schedule because she pretty much does everything and he went along with it. 

My fear right now may be blown out of proportion; first I have this horrible feeling she will try to go for full custody, which will literally break our whole family's heart, especially my son.  The thing about the court system, as I know I'm repeating myself, is that how in the world do you ever really show what a pwBPD does or does not do?  It would probably sound like my son is bad talking her and that won't look good, but there has been so much neglect of the children, I could write a book on it because I was there to witness it.  Going back to a few past posts, this is what I meant about "how do you shine a light on this stuff" without any $$?  I guess payment plan?  Then I have to ask myself after child support, will he have enough to maintain his home and still be able to make the payment plan to his L. 

It just all seems so unfair.  Of course, I'm going to take my son's side, but he has demonstrated that he is a capable dad through this, medically seeing to his son's needs in the proper way, taking care of getting him to and from school, never introducing him to anyone he might date here and there where in contrast to his ex-uBPD had her now fiance in bed with her on the very first night the kids stayed with her!  He is a wonderful dad to GS3 and she leaves quite a bit to be desired when it comes to being a good mom.  She clearly has poor judgement and does not value her time with her children.  How in the world do you prove this to a L?

Regarding your comment on the engagement, I'm not clear on what you mean because, again, I'm not understanding how the court would know what kind of person this is and whether or not they have a stabilizing effect on the pwBPD, etc... Yes, I am worried about them getting married (because everything with her has to happen in a New York second), and this illusion of "stability," because she will never be stable, may have an impact on things.  So yes, I am concerned what part (either the engagement or marriage) will play in her getting custody of GS3.  That is exactly what my concern is. 

You know, as an addendum, I do see a T.  In fact, I have an appointment today.  She says this a lot:  "Can you control it?  Then let it go."  I beg to differ on this.  She has a 17-year-old daughter.  So lets imagine she gets a terrible call from the hospital stating her daughter was in an automobile accident and they don't know if she will make it.  Can T control this?  No.  So, then...just let it go T.  Life doesn't work that way in my mind. 

Please feel free to let me know if I've gone over the deep end here because I'm starting to feel like it.     

[worriedStepmom]

You're teetering on the edge of the deep end, Angie 

You can't control whether or not your son's ex gets married.  There's no point in worrying about that.   She will...or she's won't.  Nothing you say or do is going to change that.

It's not easy to "let it go".  Your T should be able to give you advice on how to do that, and then you have to practice. 

Is your son upset about his ex's social media blast of the new boyfriend?  I am going to guess you are much more upset about this than he is.  Which begs the question - why? 

You are doing a great job of trying to help your son with documentation so that your grandson is taken care of.  But your son is an adult.  You can be there for him when he's sad without taking over his emotions for yourself.

[livednlearned]

Is it a "mom" thing or what?  It doesn't seem as though my husband really "feels" so strongly as I do regarding hurt, concern, etc...I don't know, it could just be me being overly sensitive.

It is a mom thing, and it's also a codependent thing. He's an adult, so he has to fix his own problems. And there's a child involved, which I find activates my maternal instincts times a thousand. Even so, it doesn't change the fact that he's a grown man.

I wanted to ask if you would clarify for me the first couple of paragraphs you wrote.  For instance about the two of them making up and complying with a schedule on their own.  Do you see this as a good thing or bad?

Neither good nor bad. It just tells the judge that both parents were able to pull together a schedule and follow it without the court being involved. Judges tend to prefer two things: 1) having the adults figure out what's going to work, if possible; and 2) keeping things status quo for the child. Less disruption.

I have this horrible feeling she will try to go for full custody, which will literally break our whole family's heart, especially my son.

She can file for anything she wants. Doesn't mean the judge will think it's reasonable. Usually, there is a claim (filed by the plaintiff or in family court, the first to file), then a counter claim (filed by the defendant, the names have nothing to do with right/wrong or good/bad in family court). Judges rarely read them and it's not uncommon for a whole lot of baloney to show up in these legal docs. And by baloney, I mean stuff that sets your hair on fire.

Most courts figure both parties are still pretty raw and emotional at the time of filing and know that things typically cool down over time. If this goes to court, it will signal that either one or both parties have a hard time solving their own problems. So judges will try to scold parties to figure things out. If there is already a reasonable visitation schedule in place that both parents agree to, then the judge will scold both parties to try and solve other conflicts. If that can't happen, then you start showing evidence and documentation to establish why there should be a modification in the schedule.

For example, if she claimed, "I need 80/20 in the schedule and I work every night" then your son might say, "I want every night with my son that she's working, which works out to 70/30 for me."

She might counter with, "Well I have a husband and he'll be home."

Then your son, "I'm home too and I'm his father and I have some concerns about the behaviors my son is being exposed to, like x, y, z in these documents."

How in the world do you ever really show what a pwBPD does or does not do?

With documentation, ideally. The gold standard is when the documentation exists from some third-party professional or institution. Like for me, my son's BPD father was an alcoholic. He didn't drink to excess outside the home and there were no DUIs, so I had a hard time proving it. I could prove that he was excessively hostile toward me, and would obstruct every reasonable proposal I had for our son, whether it was dental work, psychological care, medication. If it came from me, it was met with resistance. And that looked weird to the judge. Ex even said yes to ADHD medication but fought with the dx. Who does that?

Ex also sent a bazillion emails with hostile content. Sometimes with just "whore" or "c*n+" but oftentimes long diatribes that were evidence of drunk emailing.

You always focus on solving problems. That's something that people with BPD tend to struggle with. We all do when our anxieties and emotions are on tilt. We do best when we can bring it down and access the amazing wise mind function of our heart and brain.

I have to ask myself after child support, will he have enough to maintain his home and still be able to make the payment plan to his L.

No one comes out of these divorces making money. Where there is a will, there is a way.

She clearly has poor judgement and does not value her time with her children.  How in the world do you prove this to a L?

You don't. Lawyers are ethically bound to represent their client. My lawyer said to me, "Tell me the worst thing your ex will say about you." She wanted to know how to build a strategy to defend me. I was so in the FOG that I thought I was a bad mom for traveling for work and taking then S8 to the ER (concerned it was appendicitis) without telling ex because he was intoxicated. My whole sense of right/wrong was skewed.

It's the Ls job to prove it to a judge, if it comes to court. Or persuade the other L that it's better to settle out of court because his or her client has a boat load of documentation.

Regarding your comment on the engagement, I'm not clear on what you mean because, again, I'm not understanding how the court would know what kind of person this is and whether or not they have a stabilizing effect on the pwBPD

I mean that in the context of everything else, a re-marriage is essentially a wash. Court is not likely to see it one way or another because who knows? I found out the hard way that it's perfectly ok for a dad to poop himself after drinking enough alcohol to kill a person as long as it was in his own home. Courts witness some gritty awful stuff and a remarriage is low on the list. Would you rather she brought a new guy home every other night? That's not unheard of here ... does that make sense?

I am concerned what part (either the engagement or marriage) will play in her getting custody of GS3.

Most of our custody cases going on for a bit. We get a custody order in place and then the BPD person tends to not observe it, and the codependent person doesn't observe it. The remarriage, at this stage, will probably not have a big impact, if any.

I do see a T.  In fact, I have an appointment today.  She says this a lot:  "Can you control it?  Then let it go."  I beg to differ on this.  She has a 17-year-old daughter.  So lets imagine she gets a terrible call from the hospital stating her daughter was in an automobile accident and they don't know if she will make it.  Can T control this?  No.  So, then...just let it go T.  Life doesn't work that way in my mind.

I think the metaphor might be: She can't perform surgery on the daughter. She can't be in there with the scalpel. And she can pray and meditate and take care of her own well-being so that her anxiety doesn't impact her daughter's healing. My son had 3 surgeries this year and he has remarked that I am getting better at handling them. Me! I'm getting better!  

He kept saying to doctors, I'm good. It's my mom who needs a sedative.

After the third surgery I was a bit more comfortable with what to expect and could relax a bit more. My son preferred me when I could chill the eff out. I even slept at home during the third inpatient stay and told him to text me if he needed anything.

Also, it helps to think of your family as a nervous system. If you are doing all the stressing then the rest of the family doesn't have to. Your H and son are very likely the way they are because they don't have to feel all the pain. They see you taking care of that emotion and expressing it for them.

You can still feel anxious it's more like do it skillfully if you're going to do it. Like if your son drops a big load of dirty emotional laundry describing what his ex just did, tell him, "I am prepared to hear this if you will also tell me what you're going to do about it."

Make him be responsible for solving this painful problem so you aren't left feeling awful with no say in the matter.

[Angie59]

Hello livednlearned!

Wow, that was a whole lot of info and very, very helpful info at that.  Thank you so much.  I had some real eye openers there!  You were right on spot with a lot of it!   

Angie59

[ForeverDad]

My fear right now may be blown out of proportion; first I have this horrible feeling she will try to go for full custody, which will literally break our whole family's heart, especially my son.

LnL's reply is excellent.  ("She can file for anything she wants. Doesn't mean the judge will think it's reasonable.")  Courts prefer to default to joint custody.  However, if they see a need to assign a parent full custody, then it can happen.  I got full custody about 3 years after the final decree.  The reason was that I documented to the court that she was continuing to be obstructive to my parenting.  Just as the custody evaluator's initial report had summarized, "Mother cannot share her child but Father can."

It's unlikely, but not impossible, she can succeed with getting full custody.  We understand your concern and fears, but with documentation, preparation and an assortment of time-tested strategies, the risk is minimal.  Be alert so ex doesn't do an end run around you but meanwhile don't get freaked out.

Be aware that many states separate legal custody from the parenting schedule.  Since most of us do walk out with joint custody anyway, we generally give greater attention to getting the best parenting schedule possible.

[Angie59]

Hi ForeverDad!

Thank you for the reply.  I have just a few questions for you on what you wrote.  When you spoke of getting full custody because you documented that she was continuing to be obstructive to your parenting, did you just documenting this on paper (or I'm sure it was in a much more organized way), but was you stating this to the court enough?  I'm asking because although I have been helping my son document everything as it has been happening, so many people (not on this board or on  bpdfamily either) but people in general have acted as though my documenting things on paper was simply not going to mean anything and that you needed proof of these things; voice phone messages, text messages, emails, witnesses, etc...  Did you need some or any of these things or was your documentation good enough to stand on its own?

Also, pardon my ignorance here, but what do you mean by the ex doing an end run around me?  I don't know what that phrase means.

Also, time-tested strategies?  What would these be?  I'm so new to all of this, I feel I'm getting a real education here. 

[worriedStepmom]

For documentation -
I use a notebook for a written journal.  Some people use Google Calendar or a physical calendar.
For each entry, I document what happened and what evidence might exist of it. 

1. Your son should keep all text messages.  He can screenshot them and save them somewhere.  There are also apps, like MightyText, that will automatically back up all the texts for you.
(I write up my log myself.  Later I grab H's phone and get screenshots of the texts.  Then, in my log, I write "see text message from ex to H, 9/1/2019 at 1:04 pm")

2.  Your son should keep all emails.

3. If it is legal in your state, your son should be recording all of his phone calls with her.  My H has an app on his phone that automatically records all calls.  Every few weeks he saves any calls that might be good evidence to his computer (calls where ex was saying crazy things or where she said something that was bad parenting).  I note these calls in my log too.

4.  My journal also has notes about when we had SD12 and when her mom did.  And I note when mom was supposed to  pick SD up and didn't.  A simple calendar is good enough for that. 

5.  Write down when your son takes GS to the doctor.  You can always get logs from the doctor's office of which parent was there/who paid.
 
Once your son establishes that there is a status quo - that he has been reliably taking care of GS on these days for months, then the court doesn't usually like to overturn that.

[Angie59]

Thank you worriedStepmom for your reply.  It sounds like for my son, the voice recordings will not work legally on the phone.  I looked up the question as to whether or not that was legal and they are considered "a two party consent state," which means both parties must agree to be recorded.  Unfortunately only 11 states are "both party consent" and he happens to live in one. 

I find myself on this board asking all of these questions and then I wonder why I am.  At the point I am in, I don't want to give up with the documentation because this is about my precious GS3.  However, my son is the biggest procrastinator I have ever seen and it is really getting on my nerves!  For instance, in the state of Illinois, when a couple is not married, any children that are born will be automatically given to the mother for sole custody until the father can prove paternity.  He has been separated now from her for 5-1/2 months and he still does not have a copy  of his VOP (verification of parentage) form, which is what is needed to prove parentage.  I just found this out as I thought he had taken care of it long ago.  He just told me that he did go to the hospital to get a copy as they are the ones who have this form on file, but their system was down and he could not obtain it that day.  So he just hasn't been back to do it yet!

The documentation would not exist if not for me.  We did go over what I had documented this past weekend at my request, not his.  He has only made one phone call to his L since he hired him 5 months ago, and when he questions things to us, we tell him to please call his L.  We do not know what the best advice is for him, but that is what he is paying his L for.  We will casually ask him a bit later in the week if he called him and the answer is always no.

I'm about in tears with frustration at this point with him.  We have been through 5-1/2 years of sheer misery while he was with this woman to begin with - geez, could we please have some sort of break now that she is no longer with you, and not only not with you but newly engaged!  Can you just move on, do the things you are supposed to do to protect yourself and your son and quit acting like this is no big deal? 

I am beside myself with him right now, and apologize for the ranting and raving about it.  I would so much more easily be able to simply let it go myself and say the heck with it, it's on him, if he was alone, because of course this would not be a big thing without GS3 involved.  Our grandson is the reason for doing all of this - when is enough enough for all this frustration and pushing and prodding?  I don't know why he isn't taking these things seriously.  It's like being between a rock and a hard spot.  I want to wash my hands of it because of the stress of his procrastination, but yet don't feel I can when it will be our innocent 3 year old grandson suffering the consequences. 

Thanks for listening.  I don't mean to be venting about this so much, because I know I have before, but it just continues and he acts like he is dealing with a "normal" person and he of all people should know he is not and needs to get his %&*^ together! 

Ready to pull my hair out!

[ForeverDad]

When I spoke of the ex "making an end run around you" I meant that she could use a surprise tactic in an attempt to convince the court to have concerns that you, your son or others are abusers, neglectful or endanger the child, something that might be actionable.  She may make allegations against any of you.  As a grandparent, you have less rights that your son as a parent has.

Early in my case neither my lawyer nor the court was interested in calling out my ex.  Post divorce, when I went back to seek legal custody and majority time, I only got legal custody.  My son's lawyer (Guardian ad Litem or GAL) hoped that she would behave better while still being able to get child support.  She didn't and so I went back to court, again.  This time we had a two day hearing and had testimony from the school, the GAL and me.  At last, I played about 9 or 10 clips of exchanges where my ex played games with pickups.

The last time I went to court was when already had full custody and was again seeking change from equal time to majority time.  I had a list of her obstructions and games.  One of her favorites was messing with exchanges.  This was the first time recordings of the events was submitted to court in the two day case.  The magistrate's decision cited the primary factor was disparagement (mentioned about 6 times in the decision) and included this: "In the tapes Mother is often yelling so loudly that it is difficult to endure listening to her."  So I got majority time.

While I do live in a one party state, my experience here as a member has been that few have reported getting in trouble for recording.  Maybe a handful reported that the court ordered the children not to be recorded, but nothing worse, no one was arrested for recording.  These days most people have phones, cameras and other devices that can record.  The two-party laws appear to be applied mostly to law enforcement, reporters and other professionals.  Many courts are not interested in recordings unless it really makes a difference such as proving an actionable incident.

I also viewed recording as my 'insurance' so I could prove I wasn't the one acting poorly or aggressively.