Separation/Divorce ultimatum

[reluctanthubs]

DBPD(but in denial) Wife has engaged in another affair.  Kinda done with it all she hasn't got any better since finding out about BPD diagnosis in 2011.  Thought she would never do it again seeing as the last one was 17 years ago.

Giving her one last option.  Intense DBT or get the boot.  Because I paid attention and gathered enough evidence to prove to her that I knew about the affair I have a strong case in NC to pretty much kick her to the curb.  She looses the ability to get ANY alimony, no separation support, no maintenance, custody and child support HEAVILY weighted against her, she is effectively evicted from the marital residence, looses all rights to the selling of ANY Marital property. 

Pretty much the sweetest deal a guy could get for a cheating BPD. 

Did any of you have a similar type situation where you gave them the ultimatum and they changed for the good permanently?

I'm pretty sure she is going to fall apart when she is served sometime next month.  I don't expect her to take the offer because the divorce would prove that I never loved her.

[40days_in_desert]

reluctanthubs - Sorry to hear about what you found out about your wife. My ex cheated on me too but I didn't know for sure until after we separated. As far as an ultimatum I wouldn't suggest that because someone has little chance of getting better unless they choose to get better. With BPD I feel that this is even more true. I'm sure others will post about experiences where they gave their pwBPD an ultimatum and what happened.
With adultery playing a part during a divorce, you may want to consult an attorney before you give your wife the ultimatum. In my state if you choose to resume with your marriage after having knowledge of the affair, you can't really use adultery as cause if you decide to divorce later. In the eyes of the legal system, it is assumed that you have forgiven her by continuing with your marriage after having knowledge. I'm not a lawyer and not sure how this would play out in your state but its worth the time and the money (unless you can get a free consult) to check it out first. Then you can decide about the ultimatum. Best of luck to you.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  Have you informed her of your ultimatum?  If you haven't yet, make sure you have all your ducks lined up including an assertive lawyer retained, written marital separation agreement, safety plan(s), etc.  Hope for the best, plan for the worst. 

Also, could you expand on this statement: I don't expect her to take the offer because the divorce would prove that I never loved her.

Good luck. jdc

[reluctanthubs]

40 days, yeah I'm just making sure my case is water tight. I believe it is but I just don't know all of the details fully yet.

Honestly its going to be brutal for her.  She looses everything, separation support, access to alimony, child custody/support will probably be significantly weighted towards me.  It is like the perfect situation if I wanted to crush her, but I don't.  I just want it to be severe enough that she snaps out of it and realizes what she stands to loose if she doesn't want to follow my terms. 

In essence I am offering her either utter destruction of her life and access to her kids(future child support to me) and loss of her nursing degree she is persuing.

OR I proceede with the separation, I support her renting a room somewhere and support most of her needs(she makes a little money).  I have full access to her electronic devices, GPS location for said devices and car and FULL implementation of DBT therapy with access to her therapist to verify she is making progress.  In essence she is in wife jail or wifen parole. 

Anything less than my full demands met, I catch her in anything but a professional setting with another man, her setting me up to break the separation, getting a lawyer to break my case and all gloves are off.  I will crush her, I will sue the other man for alienation of affection and I will watch her and his world burn and smile the whole way.

[reluctanthubs]

JDC,

She's a BPD she believes that when my love for her is not 100% assured she believes that I've never loved her at all. 

I don't expect for her to take the offer.  The idea of her having to give control over to me will make her refuse just out of spite. Even in the face of total and utter divorce destruction. She hates our family life. All she wants is to make money and sail and be on the beach all day.

As far as the lawyers I am set up to have counsel with three of them over the next week or so.  If my case isn't a slam dunk I won't do it and will have to change plans.  But I have everything for it to be a slam dunk.  We'll see what they say in the next week.

[worriedStepmom]

Do you want a spouse who is only staying with you because you can destroy her world?

Would you ever be able to trust her?  or would you constantly be checking to see if she's found a way around your boundaries?

For someone with severe BPD, ultimatums do not work.  Their thinking is so disordered, and their pain is so real to them, that they can't get past it.

If my SD12's mother continues on her current path, she is going to end up on supervised visitation and rarely see her kid.  She is very aware of this but she is incapable of acknowledging her mistakes.  Occasionally the reality that she is slowly losing her child overwhelms her; she's been in inpatient psychiatric care twice this year.  Each time, she does better for 6-8 weeks, but she cannot keep it together.  Her love for her child is not enough to overpower her mental illness. 

Your wife may agree to your terms, but because it is a threat, any behavior change will be short-term.

It's completely understandable that you are this hurt and this angry.  Are you taking time for self-care?  Therapy?  time in the gym or playing video games or whatever hobby helps center you?

[reluctanthubs]

Worried,

Thanks for your reply.  She doesn't have a choice at the moment if info through with it.  I don't care if she changes short term I'm in it for the long term.

I care that she gets help.  Either by force or willingly she will get some help.  She has WAY to much to loose to not take the offer.  She looses everything up to and including the kids. Her nursing school access to plenty of money, a great job at a restaurant, her kids, a man that loves her dearly.  Everything if she chooses unwisely it will be her choice.  She will end up alone and I'm ok with that.  She will end up just like her mother all by herself and a drug addict.

[Grady]

I think you are setting yourself up for failure.  Ultimatums never work with BPD.  And I get why you don't want to "destroy" her because you do care about her, but you have the upperhand right now.  If you give that up (even a little bit), I believe she will pounce in and figure out a way to get ahead of you.  My H's constant mistakes are giving BPD the benefit of the doubt or feeling compassion for her.  Every single time it has come to hurt him.  I think you know what you need to do and should do, but you are scared to do it.  Yes, in a perfect world, she would get the help she needs and get better and you can finally have the life you want with her.  But, I think you need to come to terms with that likelihood being almost unattainable.  I don't mean to sound harsh.  Is there a way you can divorce her and free yourself of this unstable/unhealthy environment and still try to help her get better?  If she chooses to get the help, you guys can have a new future together?  Good luck.  I know this seems like a no win situation right now.  But, you and your children deserve happiness and it doesn't seem like you have a chance of that with her in your life the way she currently has been.

[MeandThee29]

I did. He chose divorce.

Now he's punishing me through the divorce process.

I have a gem of a high-conflict divorce lawyer though. At the last appointment, we laughed so hard we cried. It makes the agony and expense a little less painful.

[40days_in_desert]

I think worriedStepmom brings up a good point. Do you think you could ever trust her again? I wrestled with that question with my ex while I was still even slightly interested in reconciling. My answer was "no" because she continued to show reasons not to trust her. You know your wife better than anyone here so only you can answer that question. Bring the future to the present and think of what you would need to see her show (with actions) consistently to build that trust.

 

[MeandThee29]

I think worriedStepmom brings up a good point. Do you think you could ever trust her again? I wrestled with that question with my ex while I was still even slightly interested in reconciling. My answer was "no" because she continued to show reasons not to trust her. You know your wife better than anyone here so only you can answer that question. Bring the future to the present and think of what you would need to see her show (with actions) consistently to build that trust.

Trust is essential. Mine refused counselling and accountability from the very beginning and throughout separation, so I knew that divorce was very likely. But it was the lack of trust that disturbed me more. Trust requires a time to be rebuilt. It's based on seeing that the other person is trustworthy and follows through. It's the ability to see the other person as a human being with their own emotions and thoughts. What I saw was mostly attempts to connect followed by yet more blame and yet another discard. So there was eroded trust to the point that I gave up.

In the divorce process now, I expect the worst because that's how it's gone. I'm the target of blame. At this point, I mean nothing because I abandoned him.

I view it as a sad end, but don't feel vindictive at all. I've been very reasonable with what I've asked for, but I realize that anything I ask for is an affront. Hopefully in time, he'll see that.   

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, I have to join the others in their concern about your goals to force your spouse to return and/or get therapy one way or the other.  You may have the written law on your side but what you're not taking into consideration is that judges have wide latitude in discretion with divorce cases.  The law can say one thing but case law from other cases and the wiggle room of discretion that judges have do not guarantee the outcome you predict.

What I'm saying is that you may not coerce her into therapy and court may not force her into therapy.  (I was in and out of court 2005-2013 and the last decision noted "Although the Court is inclined to order Mother to have individual counseling, there is no evidence that Mother has the funds to participate in such counseling or insurance to cover the cost.")  Even if that happens, she would have to diligently apply herself in the sessions over an extended time period, years.  You can't fix her.  You can't.  She would have to want fixing and work towards recovery.  As the old story goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Court is there to be the umpire or referee as the couple navigates the divorce process.  It is not there to fix the spouses.

Most of us also wanted our spouses 'fixed'.  Didn't happen.  Well, there were some who have held things together with some cooperation from the other spouse, one of them here is FormFlier.  So yes, you might succeed but the odds are against you.  At the least, have a fallback strategy to walk away (divorce) with as little damage as possible to you and your children.

[PeteWitsend]

Yeah, ultimatums never work.  You're really just setting yourself up for failure.

If she handed you a "gift" in the form of her verifiable infidelity, you either use it or don't.  If you don't, know that you're continuing the marriage as is; it's unlikely to change, simply because she got caught cheating (or for any reason really).

I agree with 40_days concerns: you could very well lose the "leverage" should you take her back; she can renege on whatever she promises whenever she decides to, and you should not assume the judge would be sympathetic to your side of the story.  She will openly lie in court, and unless you are able to objectively refute every last element of her lie, assume the judge will rule against it.

In my own experience, my BPDxw would respect ultimatums (boundaries really) only in the most literal sense, and only then when I showed I would follow through on boundary enforcement.

she wouldn't stop there, though; she would look for ways around them all the time,  and opportunities to violate them, while maintaining plausible deniability. 

If I said "Next time you do ABC, I'm leaving and going for a walk until it stops."

Well, I was just setting myself up for her to do "ABC" with a twist deny it was the same thing or her intent, and wait until I was in a situation where I couldn't easily "go for a walk" to enforce my boundary to do it.

And pwBPD have infinite capabilities to engage in this sort of behavior... normal people usually don't.  do you really want to go down this path?

[Skip]

Because I paid attention and gathered enough evidence to prove to her that I knew about the affair I have a strong case in NC to pretty much kick her to the curb.  She looses the ability to get ANY alimony, no separation support, no maintenance, custody and child support HEAVILY weighted against her, she is effectively evicted from the marital residence, looses all rights to the selling of ANY Marital property. 

You might want to get a second opinion on this. North Carolina certainly is harder than most states when there is infidelity. Alimony rights do go out the door. Custody and property distribution may not be affected if she was 17 years without an affair.

I'm pretty sure she is going to fall apart when she is served sometime next month.  I don't expect her to take the offer because the divorce would prove that I never loved her.

If you are serious about trying to save the marriage and serious about your boundary, I would open up a discussion on the Bettering Board on how to deliver the message.

Serving it up as an ultimatum, with a nuclear option being the other choice won't work - even if she wants to resolve it all.

This is one of those times when we have to craft compassion, fairness, and "we need to fix us" messaging with a brief, friendly, but firm alternative.

I'm not saying her getting into DBT, severing he affair is not part of it. What I am saying is that a power play, and a "you bad/you must fix you" will be a sure fire divorce. Likely you should offer to go to counseling for yourself, while she does DBT and you both do joint (not all at once $$$).

I agree with you. Zero tolerance is strategic intent. But she is a highly emotional being so it has to be cloaked in "caring".