A don't know which of us has BPD

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I was in a 10-year relationship with the mother of my two boys. From the beginning things were rocky with many arguments and break-ups. However, we seemed to be making it through until it emerged one of the boys had a developmental delay. I think I hyper focused on this and the relationship went from bad to worse. Last year my partner left to enter a lesbian relationship. She has often had periods of turmoil where she wishes to change careers etc, she has also expressed a feeling of lack of set identity and rages. There is no self-harm which I know of. However, now she and her new partner are seeking to get the family home (where I am), and basically seem to be restructuring their life in a sick copy of our previous existence. I was far from the perfect, or maybe even good partner, with my own anger issues and lack of ability to as kind as I should have been. When I tried my best to be accommodating, things just really went of the rails with my ex looking to go out drinking a lot and obviously seeking other relationships.
I just don’t know what to do as I seem to be up against two people intent on pushing me to the wall. My ex did have abonnement issues and other signs that BPD maybe a factor but is it usual for such a person to then to seek to mentally and emotionally destroy others?

[Jim Flynn]

I was in a 10-year relationship with the mother of my two boys. From the beginning things were rocky with many arguments and break-ups. However, we seemed to be making it through until it emerged one of the boys had a developmental delay. I think I hyper focused on this and the relationship went from bad to worse. Last year my partner left to enter a lesbian relationship. She has often had periods of turmoil where she wishes to change careers etc, she has also expressed a feeling of lack of set identity and rages. There is no self-harm which I know of. However, now she and her new partner are seeking to get the family home (where I am), and basically seem to be restructuring their life in a sick copy of our previous existence. I was far from the perfect, or maybe even good partner, with my own anger issues and lack of ability to as kind as I should have been. When I tried my best to be accommodating, things just really went of the rails with my ex looking to go out drinking a lot and obviously seeking other relationships.
I just don’t know what to do as I seem to be up against two people intent on pushing me to the wall. My ex did have abonnement issues and other signs that BPD maybe a factor but is it usual for such a person to then to seek to mentally and emotionally destroy others?

[ForeverDad]

Others will surely chime in here with their thought, experiences, suggestions and possible strategies.

My ex did have abandonment issues and other signs that BPD maybe a factor but is it usual for such a person to then to seek to mentally and emotionally destroy others?

In one word, Yes!  That is a known trait with those displaying traits of the acting-out behaviors identified in the Cluster B personality disorders (Narcissistic, Borderline, Antisocial, Histrionic, and possibly Paranoid too).

Your partner left last year.  I don't know if that was a year ago or a month ago, but the current status is you're living in the family home.  You have every right to say "Sorry but No."  It would take a court to force you to leave and let them take over.  It may consider a number of factors such as...

• Who is on the deed.
• Who is on the mortgage, if any.
• Which parent owned it, if before the relationship began.
• Can only one parent afford to pay the expenses of owning and maintaining the home?  If only one then the other parent may get up to half of the home's equity.
• Maybe... what is the current parenting schedule.
• etc.

Some parents do mention that their children had development issues.  That could be due to the dysfunctional and unhealthy home's chaotic environment.  I recall asking my son's pediatrician when he was two years old whether he could have some level of autism since he was slow to speak and seldom looked me in the eyes.  And until midway through the third grade he read word by word and not in sentences.  Teachers consistently remarked he was distracted and distracting to the other students.  After that (and probably just a coincidence that I sought and obtained Legal Custody about that time) he improved is will soon graduate high school.  My point is that it's hard to state categorically whether a child's issues are a result of genetics, turbulent home environment or something combination.

For you to question whether you're the problem is a good sign... it is hard for those who are disordered to ponder that question.  From your brief post I don't notice any indication you might have serious mental issues such as a personality disorder.  More likely, you've been like many here who tried to appease and mollify someone who repeatedly crushed good boundaries, demanded constant ultimatums and capitulation, etc.  That sort of one-sided relationship can't work, not for very long.  As you found out.

[Jim Flynn]

|I should have stated that I have suffered from depression, anxiety and anger issues for many years. I was medicated for them and have also taken relationship break ups very badly in the past. I think I certainly have some BPD traits but this complete change of direction by my ex-partner, on sexuality and other issues, is the most disturbing thing I have ever witnessed in my life.

On the property is going to be a nasty fight I fear. I do not wish to cause further disruption in my children's lives but the ex and her partner are set on some form of journey where they want the house and I fear will cause any level of chaos to get it.

Thank you for your advice. I really am looking for as much info and support I can get from people who have survived similar horrific events were the ones closet to you turn on you in a really extreme fashion.

[MeandThee29]

My ex did have abonnement issues and other signs that BPD maybe a factor but is it usual for such a person to then to seek to mentally and emotionally destroy others?

That's actually a very strong marker. If you are like me, you keep coming back with hope that it will change. What is insanity? Doing the same thing over-and-over with the same results. I did question my role for a very long time. We all have issues, but you can't blame yourself for such a toxic way of dealing with another human being.

In my case, BOTH divorce lawyers had a lot to say about the contrast between their two clients (LOL) as we got near the end. I had hired a specialist in high conflict divorce, and he asked all of the right questions in the first appointment and knew exactly how to approach it. His underestimated what he was dealing with. Didn't matter. We got a settlement, and that's what matters to me.

[Ulysses]

Reading your post reminded me of what it was like for me when the realities and truth were unfolding.  I felt confused, and had trouble believing my life partner was engaging in such shocking behaviors.  You may have already posted this elsewhere, but I was wondering what kind of support do you have?  Legal?  Therapist?  Family/friends?

I would second that you not leave your home without contacting an attorney.  I think legal advice is important to get as soon as possible. 

My other thoughts on your posts include...

basically seem to be restructuring their life in a sick copy of our previous existence

I also experienced this.  It was painful and I realized that what they were/are showing the world is not what reality is, just like when my exH and I were married, what people saw from the outside was not quite what it seemed.
 

...is it usual for such a person to then to seek to mentally and emotionally destroy others?

Yes!  Steel yourself against getting sucked into her chaos and the pain she wants to inflict on others.  Some people find it helpful to envision a physical boundary protecting them (an aura, a guardian angel, an imaginary leopard, lion, or other animal, etc.).  It's probably going to continue for many years if you have children together.  Personally I found therapy invaluable to help me deal with this aspect of things, and, eventually, to even find humor in it. It still happens, he still tries.

From the beginning things were rocky with many arguments and break-ups. However, we seemed to be making it through until it emerged one of the boys had a developmental delay. I think I hyper focused on this and the relationship went from bad to worse

While it is important for each of us to look at what we may have done during the relationship that wasn't always positive, I'm curious  about your statement.  I don't know your details.  I would be interested in hearing more about why/how you feel that supporting your son damaged your relationship.  How is your son doing now? 

|I should have stated that I have suffered from depression, anxiety and anger issues for many years. I was medicated for them and have also taken relationship break ups very badly in the past.

How are you doing now?

I think I certainly have some BPD traits but this complete change of direction by my ex-partner, on sexuality and other issues, is the most disturbing thing I have ever witnessed in my life.

Yes, I don't think this is unusual, either.  How are you doing, and I do hope you are able to find support.

[Jim Flynn]

I'm doing a bit better than I was for the last seven months. I couldn't do much worse as I received emergency counselling due to wishing to end it all - the thought of the impact on my kids is what stopped me.
I have support from friends but have cut off my mother (she had a very detrimental impact on the relationship, maybe she was right about my partner, but she made things worse in competition for my children with her – my partner was a fragile person, but no regard was taken of this. When I could not cope after the break up little regard was then taken of my condition so I needed to end contact, which I will maintain until I am stronger).
I see a therapist but may seek a more in-depth psychologist when I feel up to it.
The boy is now doing well but for more than a year he was really left up to me as my responsibility, being declared evil or a result of my flawed DNA during episodes by my partner. Things are now much better with him and his mother.

I focused on the kid and really thought after getting him a bit sorted, I could then sort out the relationship – I was neglectful of my partner but then the demands were never ending. She had also decided against medical advice that the child was in a much worse situation than he was – in meetings and that she seemed to just hear what she wanted rather than what was being said or even given in writing.

I have been seriously depressed for at least two years now. When it became clear my partner had given up on the relationship and was just intent on constructing some new reality, I was having panic attacks on a regular basis, after the split these became overwhelming and I gave up work for a period.

The anger which was being directed at me in the final months of living together by my partner was soul destroying, if I had known then what I know about BPD I may have been able to cope with it differently but my temper got the better of me twice over the final 18 months and my reactions left me believing that I was the abuser – they certainly were not good reactions but with the pressure of my son’s situation and the real hate being displayed to me I have now be able to begin to forgive myself - saying that there was nothing which could be termed criminal in my reactions but I just wish I had not made them.

I still dream of my family being put back together for the sake of the children but are now settling into trying my best to defend my home and get some sort of order in my live again. I made many, many mistakes but was in a relationship where there was very little true empathy being shown, perhaps by both sides – that is why I feel that BPD may have been to play on both sides. It is just a sad story, the path of which it will take a long time for me to process.

[Jim Flynn]

The children are with me roughly 50% of the time - although this is being rolled back at the moment, something I will have to act on. She introduced them to her new partner, I think within days of meeting her, they were living together with my children also in their place for much of the time within three months - my objections to this were overruled as she "needed to flee the home as she was in fear of her life" - there was no basis to this.

[ForeverDad]

Some people find it helpful to envision a physical boundary protecting them (an aura, a guardian angel, an imaginary leopard, lion, or other animal, etc.).

The illustration I've used is an invisible, impenetrable umbrella that repels the abuse and insinuation back to the sender.  There's even a booklet An Umbrella for Alex written with children in mind.  So these examples or concepts can help the children too since the disordered person often tries to put the kids into the middle of the conflict.

Remember, you need to be at your reasonable best to support your children.  Beware of the "FOG" your spouse purposely triggers in you — Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

A side thought is that we often feel we will do better by being super-nice, super-fair, that Gifting our ex every advantage will score points with the court, lawyers and other professionals.  Reality check — mostly they don't care how nice or generous the fathers are.  They already expect some level of emotions, outbursts and conflict when a separation or divorce is in process.  Mothers already get a lot of default preferences anyway, so no need (and actually a disservice to you as parent) to feel it is up to you to protect her from herself or the system.  The system generally will ensure she gets decent treatment.  Focus on your parental interests and the children's interests.

Another thought... We Nice Guys and Nice Gals have personalities where we are inclined to be super honest about ourselves.  This is not the time to "let it all hang out".  No one will make you volunteer testimony against yourself.  Yes, all of us had events in the past we weren't proud of.  But the reality is that we were probably reacting to the ex's goading, manipulations or insinuations.  My ex never admitted her poor behaviors.  In fact, when some phone calls (9 or 10) I recorded were played in court, she testified, "I don't remember that but it's my voice."  She was in rage mode at the time of the calls but whether she remembered or admitted didn't excuse them.

[Ulysses]

Jim Flynn, you are going through a lot right now, with many angles to tackle.  I know when I was in the midst of everything it felt overwhelming at times.  It helped to have an attorney, a therapist, family/friends (for immediate help), and these boards.  Also to have at least a vague idea of what I wanted, and to take one thing at a time only.  I had to remind myself - one thing at a time.

I don't know if it's reassuring, but I think many have experienced similar things to what you are experiencing (of course all of our stories are unique). I have found these boards to be so helpful to get my story out, get support, find out how others have handled things.  There is a lot of support here, and sometimes just typing out what we are going through helps us process and move through it.

Practically speaking, you might want to follow up immediately regarding your house and your children.  Perhaps a lawyer can be of assistance. 

I agree with Forever Dad that now is not the time to give and be generous.  You can make arrangements and be courteous and firm without lashing out or anything like that.  Giving in to be kind may backfire on you.  An example - first year of our separation exH complained about the parenting plan agreement we had just both approved a few months earlier.  He didn't think it was fair re: holidays.  So I offered to have the children with him Wed night before Thanksgiving, so he could see them.  I gave up an overnight, which in my state is a big deal, I guess. The next year when I asked about flipping it so I could see them, he refused.  Things like this happened a few times until my L told me that I should not give up anything without getting something in return, in writing.  This is not how I operate, but I had to learn how to, and do so now, despite the nasty replies from him about how ridiculous it is, etc., and despite how icky it feels to me. 

Journaling and keeping a running record of things helped me, too.  Email communication helps document everything.

A couple of thoughts on your post...
I don't think it's unusual to be "blamed" for a "defective" child.  When my S was about 7, my then-H told me he figured all of S's quirks, difficulties, challenges were from my side of the family, but after S started seeing a psychologist, or maybe it was when H started therapy, H thought it might actually be H "fault."  Just a window into thinking and perception that feels different than mine (felt very black and white to me, and maybe a bit dehumanizing to S). BTW S is now in high school, achieving, very bright, doesn't fit the typical mould but is doing wonderful things and has made some friends.  It has been a long road with him but a wonderful one, too.

I imagine a therapist can help you process your reactions during your relationship, and what is going on now.  A T experienced with personality disorders can be helpful.  It's hard to look at ourselves, and I'm glad to hear you talk about forgiving yourself.  As painful as it is, it can be a gift to work through this with a therapist and learn about ourselves and grow.  It is also helpful to learn about what my T called, "crazy-making behavior."  I heard that phrase a lot from her for the first few years, in relation to exH's behaviors.  When a person isn't experienced with/awake to the situations, it can lead to a lot of inner turmoil.  I also experienced feelings of panic, anxiety, depression (learned the term, "situational depression").  I basically shut down during my marriage.  During marriage counseling, H was told his actions were actually a form of domestic violence, and he vehemently disagreed since he had never, "laid a hand on her" (looking back, the dramatic image the flowery language conjures up kind of makes me laugh). 

You are in a challenging time right now and I would encourage you to use the resources here and keep posting if it's helpful.

[Jim Flynn]

Thanks for your words of support.

I'm holding it together most days now but just fear so much for the future. I read elsewhere on this board that you should not admit your mistakes to your former partner, however I feel so guilty for much of what went wrong, what are the strategies that people have found to gain some form of closure or basis to move forward. I would have done so many things differently.

I feel myself I did my fair share of emotional abuse to my ex-partner but when I tried to get my behaviours under control things just got worse from the other side.

I have a therapist, legal advice and a degree of support from friends but as the months drag on friends of course get tired. The person that I felt I could count on for a degree of assistance (and who I tried to help in my own imperfect manner) is now hell bent, with an ally who has entered myself and children's lives only 10 months ago, on taking what I hoped was my future.

Any advice on what people did to get through this time is greatly appreciated.

[Jim Flynn]

I am finding hand overs of the children particularly difficult. My ex is clearly in a heighted state during these as well, and there are problems when I go to hug the kids as I say good-bye, they grab on to me and say they wish to stay with me but I also think this is a degree of play acting. I know I should refrain from this but seem draw to do it and must find a way of stopping. I have read some of the resources here but after 7 months these situations are still very, very painful for me.

[kells76]

Hi JF;

I am finding hand overs of the children particularly difficult. My ex is clearly in a heighted state during these as well, and there are problems when I go to hug the kids as I say good-bye, they grab on to me and say they wish to stay with me but I also think this is a degree of play acting. I know I should refrain from this but seem draw to do it and must find a way of stopping. I have read some of the resources here but after 7 months these situations are still very, very painful for me.

You're having some good insights here.

My ex is clearly in a heighted state during these as well

Yes. It's possible she may see the kids as extensions of herself -- they're "just like her" or whatnot. So, if she has split you black, but sees the kids interacting positively with you, that could amp her up. Could be other reasons, too, but it's so typical for exchanges to be highly charged.

there are problems when I go to hug the kids as I say good-bye

I'm guessing your ex sees the hugs happening?

they grab on to me and say they wish to stay with me but I also think this is a degree of play acting

Tricky stuff. It's good that you are able to be level-headed about why your kids may be doing what they're doing. I suspect it's "a little of both". They may sense that things are calmer with you and not want to give that up. They may also be "primed" to be highly sensitive to parental emotions and want to caretake those.

I know I should refrain from this but seem draw to do it and must find a way of stopping.

Are you talking about the hugs goodbye? Or something else?

I have read some of the resources here but after 7 months these situations are still very, very painful for me

Absolutely. Exchanges are still at at least a 4//10 instead of 1/10, and we're YEARS into this. It's good that you are able to recognize how painful those situations are for you -- being in touch with reality is critical, even when it's a painful reality.

...

Want to talk through some concrete ideas? We're here for you!

It's still hard for both kids (SD11 & SD13) at exchanges when both parents are present. SD11 tends to "rip off the bandaid" and rush from us to them -- just "getting it over with". That can be painful in its own way as she might "forget" to hug us or say goodbye.

SD13 tends more to having anxiety ramp up and telling us she doesn't want to go to Mom's because it's more relaxed with us. That's also hard in its own way because the temptation is to say "Of course you don't have to go to Mom's, you can just stay here". We're not quite at the place yet where we can make that move. She has been staying over on a couple of school nights per month (which is a BIG improvement from the past) and those tend to go really well because either DH or one of my parents takes her to school in the a.m. No interaction between Dad and Mom keeps the stress low.

It's a little trickier with the goodbyes when Mom picks up versus when we drop off, because there's no telling exactly when Mom will show up. When we drop off, there's more control over when and how we do goodbyes. We try to do them in the car before, or right when, stopping and parking. It's just hard to do, especially for SD11, at the doorstep.

Where are your exchanges taking place?

Are you doing more drop offs or pick ups?

We can walk you through this!

kells76

[Jim Flynn]

Things like “viewing the kids as extensions” of themselves is the stuff that gives me a bit of a shiver down the spine because I fear that it is me more than their mother that has that view of the kids. I just feel such pain when they go, every time it reminds me of the imperfect but better existence I had when their mother was still around. It was me that would not face reality that the relationship was over so that also makes me fear that I have more than a few traits of BPD.

On the hand overs there were problems when I dropped them to her house, this handover was in a gym after swimming. She was delayed and then a bit rushed with the whole thing. It is the just total pain I feel after the handovers that are the real problem for me, I can’t take it my children don’t live with me anymore, that the hard work I put into trying to bring order to their lives (perhaps to much work and not done in the best way) is now dismissed and all improvements and developments are being put down to the new relationship she is in and other changes to do with food.

“I know I should refrain from this but seem draw to do it and must find a way of stopping.”
I am referring to the hugs here. I need to find some other way to say goodbye.

Kells? Are you in Ireland? I fear going to the family courts because they are meant to be so biased against men, is this the case you have found?

[kells76]

Hi JF; nope, not in Ireland, but Irish heritage 

There may be Irish members here on Family Law... I think I've seen a few over on the "Son/Daughter with BPD..." board, too, if that's helpful.

[Fie]

Hello Jim Flynn  

I don't know if I can offer you much wisdom here, but just a quick word to tell you I relate.
I split up with the father of my child when my daughter was 2  - she's 11 now. I recognise a lot of the emotions you are talking about.
I promise you it will get better - a LOT better.
I used to feel absolutely devastated every time my daughter left for her dad. And the guilt ... omg the guilt. Now at most I feel a little sad. I'm saying at most because I use my time she's not there to become a better version of myself : I work more hours, I visit friends, I rest, ... And I don't feel guilty anymore. I tried to make it work with her dad ; but it takes two people. And the fights she was subjected to, are finished. Now she has a little brother over there that she loves dearly, life has gone on.
I do relate to you wondering if you too, could have BPD. How about accepting that we all might have one or a few traits ? That does not make us bad people. It just makes us human. How would it feel to just accept that ?
I also relate to you feeling like you would have to apologise to your ex for the things you did. How would you feel if you allowed yourself to park that feeling in the fridge for now ? You can always apologise later, when you will see more clearly whose 'fault' was what exactly. There is no point in taking the blame for things you are not to blame for now. Your ex also doesn't need your apology to get on with her life. How would it feel to concentrate on your own well being now ?  To first work out what works for you, to find out how you can get your life on the rails again ? You have got some drastic changes going on, it's not the time to be strict now. Park as many issues as possible in the 'fridge'. If you later on still judge it necessary, you can still take them out ..
Do you think you could do as Kells76 said she was doing - hugging goodbye in the car or so ?

[Jim Flynn]

Fie, thank you for that. it is great to hear that for some it gets better. My situation is complicated by the upcoming dispute about the family home. I am currently there but it may be difficult to stay in it with my partner focusing on getting it so it can be 'developed' as she wished. I merely want some semblance of stability for me and my children by maintaining the house. I fear if I did compromise on the issue it would just encourage greater demands and believe I have to make my stand on it. I don't know if others have had issues where a person has set on taking a house without any consideration of some level of stability being maintained for the children, and of course no concern about stability for them.

[Fie]

As far as your house, I think these are turbulent times and you need to set aside your emotions here.. and that's very hard. If you ask me, you need legal advice, preferable from someone who has assisted in separations with a lot of conflict.
A lawyer can assist you here and apply logic in a situation where that is nearly impossible for you, who is right in the middle.
It can also defuse a lot of conflict ; whenever the mum of your children would want to start a fight with you about the house, you can simply respond with 'sorry, I let my lawyer deal with that, you will have to talk to him/her'.

[Jim Flynn]

Yes, I have got legal advice on all the issues but in the end it is myself which needs to decide what to oppose and where to compromise. I need to weight up what I can live with and still maintain stability for the children. If the house is bought from me it will fall mainly into the ownership of my ex's new partner - she has only been in this relationship 10 months, I fear that the children may lose what they have considered as their family home due to this situation as well as their imperfect family unit. However, I fear the intensity of the reaction from my ex if I oppose her on this but also believe that it will not end there, I feel somewhat stronger in recent weeks and perhaps able to make a stand on this issue.

[worriedStepmom]

I fear that the children may lose what they have considered as their family home due to this situation as well as their imperfect family unit.

I think most of us are scared about everything our kids are losing, and we fight hard sometimes to preserve something of the old family.  I know I felt that way when my ex and I divorced.

It turned out that my kids were fine with moving.  We sold the family home and bought a new one that was the home for our new family (me + kids).  Their dad moved around a lot for the first few years, but they always had a room - a home with that new family (dad + kids + various stepmothers/stepsiblings) too.

When I remarried (2 years after we moved out of the family home), we moved again, this time to a different city.  The kids were fine, although they missed their friends for a while.

The most important thing for your children is that they have your love and support and a place with you.  It doesn't really matter where that place is.

[ForeverDad]

Home is wherever you and the kids live.

[Jim Flynn]

I am moving to this view concerning the house. I am going to look for a place that is few in a couple of streets of the family home, is this good idea?

[worriedStepmom]

I am moving to this view concerning the house. I am going to look for a place that is few in a couple of streets of the family home, is this good idea?

You are the only one who can decide if it is a good idea.

In our case, if H wouldn't engage with his ex via phone, she would show up at our home unannounced.  We lived a 20-minute drive away.  I cannot imagine how bad it would have gotten if we were in walking distance.

My ex doesn't have a personality disorder.  When H and I got married and bought a house together, one of the options was in my ex's neighborhood.  We chose not to live there because we thought it would be awkward to randomly run into him while out on a walk or going to get the mail.