And he was doing so well...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My uBPD H was doing well for about two months.  No major atomic explosions for some time.

Then last night, a detonation.  H has been on thyroid and hormone medication for about a year, and his mood swings and rages were milder.  There is fact that some psychiatric problems can be caused by various hormones.

H and I were making dinner and H was chopping vegetables in the kitchen.  H had a stressful week at his work, so I just told him to get out of his suit and tie, start watching his television and unwind while I made dinner.  H insisted on chopping the vegetables.  I told H to stop chopping and go relax.

H exploded, repeatedly stabbing the kitchen knife into the cutting board, sending cut vegetables all over the floor and counters, raging at me, saying I was annoying him deliberately, and then launched into the usual:  he hated me, really didn't want to be married to me, that he was divorcing me in two year's time when he retired, I was a b*tch, etc.

I remained calm and got the cats and dogs to safety.  The cats hid under a bed while I put the dogs into the garage.  They were terrified. I told H he scared the pets, but he continued to rage.  (If you will recall, he tore the bed out from under an incontinent, dying little dog some years ago when she soiled herself in the middle of the night, raging and cursing at her.  H's response was he was sleep deprived.  I know he'd never do this with his infant grandchildren needing a nappy/diaper change.  His children and grandchildren are extensions of himself.)

Once the pets were safe, I launched into him.  I had had enough of being raged at.  I was thinking, "You SOB, you want to play that game, bring it on."  I went into all the holes in his armour:  his uNPD F, his alcoholic/addict brother, his enabler M, his unhappy childhood, the way his adult children abuse him.  I quoted what his adult children say to him when they want money and they emotionally blackmail him.  I held nothing back.  I did not cower when I got the expected divorce threat.  I no longer cower and cry when H dysregulates.  I am ready for a divorce should he get a lawyer.  BTW, Bill Eddy states BPDs often make these threats but rarely carry them out.  I had an unhappy childhood with a uBPD parent, and understand unhappiness well.

Please don't tell me I should not have done this.  I was done with empathy and have been so for some time. Time to give him a taste of his own medicine.  I was not going to be his punching bag.  Then I went into the laundry room to start chores, in effect, abandoning and ignoring him.  I left him alone to his rage.  BPDs (when they are the NPD mode) need an audience, and when you ignore them, they lose their power.  

After ignoring H for about two hours, H comes to me to apologise.  I accepted his apology. Again, I was not going to be anyone's punching bag, BPD or not.  

Far too many people rationalise for their BPD partners/spouses without appropriate boundaries.  Again, I won't tolerate abuse.  All the empathy I gave H resulted in him taking more liberties with our R/S.

[AskingWhy]

My uBPD H was doing well for about two months.  No major atomic explosions for some time.

Then last night, a detonation.  H has been on thyroid and hormone medication for about a year, and his mood swings and rages were milder.  There is fact that some psychiatric problems can be caused by various hormones.

H and I were making dinner and H was chopping vegetables in the kitchen.  H had a stressful week at his work, so I just told him to get out of his suit and tie, start watching his television and unwind while I made dinner.  H insisted on chopping the vegetables.  I told H to stop chopping and go relax.

H exploded, repeatedly stabbing the kitchen knife into the cutting board, sending cut vegetables all over the floor and counters, raging at me, saying I was annoying him deliberately, and then launched into the usual:  he hated me, really didn't want to be married to me, that he was divorcing me in two year's time when he retired, I was a b*tch, etc.

I remained calm and got the cats and dogs to safety.  The cats hid under a bed while I put the dogs into the garage.  They were terrified. I told H he scared the pets, but he continued to rage.  (If you will recall, he tore the bed out from under an incontinent, dying little dog some years ago when she soiled herself in the middle of the night, raging and cursing at her.  H's response was he was sleep deprived.  I know he'd never do this with his infant grandchildren needing a nappy/diaper change.  His children and grandchildren are extensions of himself.)

Once the pets were safe, I launched into him.  I had had enough of being raged at.  I was thinking, "You SOB, you want to play that game, bring it on."  I went into all the holes in his armour:  his uNPD F, his alcoholic/addict brother, his enabler M, his unhappy childhood, the way his adult children abuse him.  I quoted what his adult children say to him when they want money and they emotionally blackmail him.  I held nothing back.  I did not cower when I got the expected divorce threat.  I no longer cower and cry when H dysregulates.  I am ready for a divorce should he get a lawyer.  BTW, Bill Eddy states BPDs often make these threats but rarely carry them out.  I had an unhappy childhood with a uBPD parent, and understand unhappiness well.

Please don't tell me I should not have done this.  I was done with empathy and have been so for some time. Time to give him a taste of his own medicine.  I was not going to be his punching bag.  Then I went into the laundry room to start chores, in effect, abandoning and ignoring him.  I left him alone to his rage.  BPDs (when they are the NPD mode) need an audience, and when you ignore them, they lose their power.  

After ignoring H for about two hours, H comes to me to apologise.  I accepted his apology. Again, I was not going to be anyone's punching bag, BPD or not.  

Far too many people rationalise for their BPD partners/spouses without appropriate boundaries.  Again, I won't tolerate abuse.  All the empathy I gave H resulted in him taking more liberties with our R/S.

[cleotokos]

AskingWhy, I don't think you're wrong. I've noticed a stark difference between this board and the board for children of BPD's. We have just as much right to feel hurt, angry, rejected, taken advantage of and trod upon as children of BPD's (and you and I have lived through that as well). It is all well and good to minimize drama and hurt feelings all around, but it's also a huge burden to carry to be the "normal" partner. I too am run out of patience and empathy. It's gotten me nothing but being viewed as a door mat. At some point I said "door mat no more" and have a hard time controlling my own emotional reactions. We are only human after all. Anger is a normal reaction to being treated this way.

[Notwendy]

I think it would help to clarify that it isn't about being right or wrong, or who is right or wrong, but about choices. Anger is a normal human response. How we express it is a choice.

It is a challenge to try to reduce conflict in a marriage. It's also a challenge to get a divorce. Neither choice is easy, but if someone is married, they have this choice. We don't tell people to stay or to leave because we need to be clear that this is a personal choice.

It's also clear that we can not change another person. If a spouse has BPD, we can't change them. We can choose to stay with them,. or to leave them. This choice is complicated by factors such as children, or finances.

We can choose to minimize conflict, or to add to it whether married or not.

We don't have to tolerate abuse. This is about boundaries, it's important to not allow someone to abuse us. But we also have another choice and that is- should we be abusive in return?

So here is the point in question. This part : Once the pets were safe, I launched into him.

This is anger. Get the pets to safety and then state " You will not rage at me". There is a choice here- leave the room. This stops the abusive behavior ( if it escalates there are other ways, like calling 9-11)

But what is this part?


 I was thinking, "You SOB, you want to play that game, bring it on."  I went into all the holes in his armour:  his uNPD F, his alcoholic/addict brother, his enabler M, his unhappy childhood, the way his adult children abuse him.  I quoted what his adult children say to him when they want money and they emotionally blackmail him.  I held nothing back.



This is hurting back - this is basically returning the abuse with verbal abuse. It's also called "kitchen sinking" the argument. The issue is do not rage at me. Now the issue becomes "everything but the kitchen sink" throwing out issues in order to hurt back,

It's something a person with BPD might do in a rage, but does that mean we act the same way? Does it solve the issue?

It's a choice. Stay married or not, retaliate or not.

It's not my marriage. I won't label it right or wrong. It's a choice.

I also am the child of a severely BPD mother who is abusive. I have a right to be angry, and I have a choice of how I want to behave with her. One of my choices is to not live with her and to limit contact with her. If I wanted to, I could retaliate the behavior and escalate the drama between us. I choose not to.

However, this kind of choice is very different from if I were married to her. Our finances are not connected, we don't have children, and I am not in a romantic relationship with her. Marriage is different. This is why the boards are different- to allow for the different kinds of relationships and the choices people make.

AW- I am not judging you, or saying what you did was right or wrong. It just seems like a difficult situation to deal with for both of you. The choices in this situation are tough, yet it still is about what you want to do- reduce your part of the conflict or add to it.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear AW-

This was a painful read.  I get your anger, and I also see that you say things have been going well for a few months, that your H has been doing well for a few months.  I take that to mean that you’ve been managing your emotions well also during this period.

I don’t know whether you read the boards and tools during quiet times to build your knowledge base on how to reduce conflict and improve communication with your uBPDh or not.  There is constant learning to do; at least I believe there is (for me).

Notwendy says a LOT in her response... with great compassion.  Please take her words to heart.

AW- when the episode last night began, there was CLEARLY something that triggered your H.  Either how you worded what you said, your tone, something.  He somehow took what or how you said what you said (even though you MEANT NO HARM) to mean you did NOT want him in the kitchen With you.

When these episodes happen, do you do any “Monday morning quarter-backing” to see what that trigger may have been?  Since he apologized, how about sitting down with your H and opening up this dialogue?  Sometimes we cannot hear how we sound to another, especially our partner... and our “suggestions”  can come across as orders.  Perhaps ask him (and maybe even offer an apology yourself for things you may have said in anger that were out of line in the moment).   Again, ask him if your tone or content of your words made him feel unwanted in the kitchen with you.  Or... maybe you already know the answer to this.  Do you?

I don’t wish to anger or upset you, AW.  And I am NOT blaming you.  However, we DO need to look at how we contribute to the conflicts within our marriage / relationship.  We are the ones who “know”; therefore we hold the keys for improvement. 

You can either use what you know (the “holes in his armour” as you call them) as either weapons against your H to further hurt and damage him and your relationship; or you can rebuild some trust with your H.  This is HIS painful truth.  Parts are his painful past and he cannot turn back the hands of time or change that.  This is so sad.  Just like you cannot change yours.  And I cannot change mine...

As Notwendy said...your choice.

I hope you will not turn away from these responses to your post.  I sincerely hope you will engage with us.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Cat Familiar]

You’ve been angry for a long time, AskingWhy. And you have a lot to be angry about: your husband’s deferential treatment of his adult children who take advantage of him and behave poorly; his violent outbursts and unkindness toward you and the pets; his frugality with you and his over generous compensation with his kids; his repeated divorce threats and abusive language toward you; the objects he’s broken, etc.

Anyone enduring that for years would feel angry about these things.

You now feel that you could manage if he divorced you, but due to physical disabilities you are not eager to start that process yourself.

In the past, you’d cower and weep when he’d threaten you and behave badly. In recent years you haven’t had that reaction; you’ve responded more with a mocking attitude. I’m wondering if this was the first time you let him have it with both barrels, telling him exactly what you think and trying to make him feel the way you previously felt when he was being verbally abusive?

If so, how did you feel afterwards? You did get an apology. Was that the first one you’ve received? And do you think he learned anything from what you said?

Like others have mentioned, anger is a normal human response when others are hurting us. It’s been a while since your husband has had an out of control episode, yet it seems as if your anger has been lurking under the surface for historical events that are not recent.

This is understandable. You’ve probably never gotten the satisfaction that he understands how his behavior has impacted you over the years.

But it’s not healthy to carry around so much resentment. It can be the origin of depression as well as other manifestations of physical illness.

Since you cannot change the past and now you’ve fully expressed yourself to him, how can you let go of all that anger that’s been within you for so many years. I’m not saying this as a way to improve your relationship, but rather as a way to improve your physical and emotional well-being.

If you plan to remain in the relationship, how can we help you navigate it to maximize your self interests? One of the best ways I’ve found is to reduce conflict, whether it’s external conflict with a partner, or if it’s the internal conflict within my own mind. Life is a lot easier when it’s less stressful.

[AskingWhy]

In the past, you’d cower and weep when he’d threaten you and behave badly. In recent years you haven’t had that reaction; you’ve responded more with a mocking attitude. I’m wondering if this was the first time you let him have it with both barrels, telling him exactly what you think and trying to make him feel the way you previously felt when he was being verbally abusive?

If so, how did you feel afterwards? You did get an apology. Was that the first one you’ve received? And do you think he learned anything from what you said?

Thank you all for the comments, NW, Gems, cleo and Cat.

I am glad it was noted that he apologised after a couple of hours.  As I stated, I have no more empathy and will no longer rationalise for my H's unhjappy childhood with a uNPD F, nor his uNPD X W cheating on him, divorcing him and taking the children.  I myself had a uBPD/uNPD M, so I won't cut him any slack for his abusing me.  No one has a right to abuse another.  I was simply giving him a taste of his own medicine.  BPDs and NPDs are shocked when someone hands it right back to them.

Yes, it was the first time I let him have it with both barrels.  Really handed it to him.  I handed it back to him for all he was worth, fully prepared from him to walk out, drive off and find a lawyer.  I am prepared now that I have legal knowledge of my rights in a divorce.  He can't make divorce threats that would once reduce me to tears and begging.  I know BPDs fear abandonment, but I was fully prepared for him to leave permanently.

No more.

As for a trigger, H was projecting his rage at his stressful work schedule onto me. He is also projecting his unresolved rage at his uNPD F  and enabling mother, his drug addicted B and cruel adult children who use him as a money tree.  (His S is homeless and drug addicted.)  I did nothing to deserved the emotional abuse I got, and I am quite proud of myself for standing up to my H.

As cleo notes, being "nice" with empathy sometimes leads to being a door mat.

I am depressed, as a matter of fact, but mostly over my brother and his adult S.  They are enmeshed in the most unhealthy way.  It's as if my B has a thirty something son for a wife!  The young man lives at home, is marginally employed, abuses alcohol and is addicted to online and live fantasy gaming.

All in all, I have more self awareness that I have had in my entire life.  And it felt good to stand up for myself after decades of being people's door mats.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to being "nice" and that could be an invitation to being a doormat. I think it comes down to boundaries. People who violate other people's boundaries need to have strong and clear ones.

Probably the toughest "boundary buster" I have dealt with is my mother. She sees boundaries as a challenge and starts to push at them as soon as she sees there is one. It takes a lot of emotional energy to be in her presence. The easiest way to be around her is to be a doormat, just say yes to everything so as to avoid the struggle. But that isn't a good thing for either of us. It isn't my nature to be that firm with someone but unless I am, she will manipulate me.

When I am that firm, she goes into victim mode. Somehow I have "hurt her terribly" if I say no. It's actually an act. If I give in and she gets her way, she suddenly feels better and seems pleased with herself.

I also find I can err to this with my H. I was trusting, fell in love, and he walked all over that. I actually find I have to love a little less, to not be walked over. But I am starting to think that is actually normal and before I learned this, I was too nice, too codependent and some people will take advantage of that. What's hard for me is that, "normal" doesn't feel comfortable ,but maybe that's because I was used to being too nice. Being too nice doesn't lead to emotionally healthy relationships. I can see how being raised by a mother who acted "terribly hurt" if I had any boundaries with her helped to shape my idea of "being nice". Of course I wanted my parents to think I was a good child.

But "kitchen sinking " in an argument goes beyond having a boundary. "Kitchen sinking" isn't only done by people with BPD. It is actually not considered an effective way of arguing as it leads to hurt and not resolution. I saw a sign in a counselor's office that said "hurting people hurt others" and it rings true. When someone is hurt, they can attack back in very hurtful ways. If you consider the drama triangle, the person is in victim mode, so they become the persecutor.

It's easy to fall into this unless we remain aware. Your H was in victim mode when he lashed out. In the moment, he became the persecutor. You responded by being the persecutor back. It may have resulted in an apology but it's still drama triangle and any role on the drama triangle is dysfunctional.

I don't know what your goals are. For me, it was to not be on the drama triangle - not with my parents and not with my H. I was not necessarily done with the relationship, but I didn't want the drama. I couldn't change anyone else but I wanted to learn to respond in ways that were not perpetuating the drama triangle.

I think this is what we are asking you. Whether or not you are done with your marriage, you and your H are on the triangle one way or another. It's not about whether or not you have empathy for him. It's about what you want for yourself.

What I have learned about "doing the work" on myself is that, we do the work, we get to keep the new tools we learn. Back to cleo's observation- learning better relationship skills is not about tolerating an abusive person. It's about self growth and change that may lead to less drama with them, and that's a nice thing.

So when I "hold the boundary" - I try to be clear with myself about the difference between a boundary and being verbally abusive or hurtful back. One is clarity, the other is losing it, being in victim mode and on the triangle. Getting better at our own emotional regulating skills is not being a doormat - it's actually the opposite. When we are less reactive we can hold a boundary and stay strong and calm, even if the person we are with is losing control of their emotions. We don't have to lose it too.

[AskingWhy]

NW, thank you for the reply.  I also had a uBPD M with a large element of uNPD.  She was physically and mentally abusive to me and my sibling.  I was not a child but an extension of my M.  Even as a young child, if I got anything less than perfect marks on my report card, I was an embarrassment to her.  She thought I disgraced her in front of my teachers.   I was only in grammar school, and I was beaten for my failures.  M would be in a rage and lecture me literally hours (and not just for scholastic matters), standing me up against a wall while she went on and on about what a failure I was, even to the point of threatening to abandon me in a grocery store at our next outing.  Then she'd add no one would want me as a child.  Brutal stuff.

This, of course, set me up for a series of R/Ss with BPD men and two BPD marriages.

I suffered so much as a child and have finally awakened as an adult, and my H's dysregulations are too much for me.  When I lash out, it's my having had enough.  I also don't love as deeply as I once did.  My first uBPD H and my current uBPD H taught me that others come first:  in my first marriage, it was my MIL and my current, H's children come first.  I love myself first and foremost.  Just as in grammar school, when you get picked on and punched, sometimes you just have to throw a punch back.  The only other option is to be a doormat and I am resolved never to be one again.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to feeling like second place ( or third, or fourth) and also experienced this in my marriage. It is known that we bring our childhood issues into adult relationships. Ironically, we tend to "match" our partners in this sense. But I think we also need to be aware of the source of our feelings. If we feel like we are not a priority, then we tend to also reinforce that in relationships by the way we interpret our partner's actions.

I am not saying you are wrong about your H. He is invested in his children, and this causes hurt for you. But in addition, you brought your hurts from the past into the marriage and this may be making his actions more hurtful to you. I also think we look to our relationships to somehow help soothe these hurts. But by doing so, we are looking in the wrong place- our childhood hurts belong to us- and we can work on them.

I am not asking you to have empathy for your H when you are done with that- but awareness that he is doing the same thing with you might help you not take his behavior as personally and not interpret it in the same way you do. This tendency doesn't just happen with pwBPD- partners do this too. The BPD dysregulations are a more extreme reaction.

Understanding this about him isn't for him. It's for you. When we don't take our partner's actions as personally, it is less hurtful.

Your mentioned if there ever was another relationship, you would have eyes wide open. Maybe. But what if I told you that if you don't work on your own emotional regulation skills, you may repeat the same patterns you have done with both your husbands? This is documented in relationship books and when I read that it was an eye opener. I am not seeking another relationship, but also considered, - what if I left my H only to get into a similar situation later? All things considered ( and every situation is different) I decided why not work on myself in the situation I have now and see what that leads to. Thankfully, I have been able to reduce conflict and drama in my own marriage. That doesn't mean there are no issues in the marriage. It does mean it has improved.

I can understand throwing the punch back so you aren't bullied anymore but perhaps there are better ways to manage these situations with your H. Although you have spoken about divorce, if you aren't in the process of leaving, then you are staying. I wonder if you would consider the tools for reducing conflict while you are there. If you do leave- you take your relationship tools with you. It may benefit both of you, but it isn't all about him. It's for you.