Kitchen table divorce negotiations

[SamwizeGamgee]

Although I wasn't aiming for this, or timing it like this specifically, I find myself in discussions of divorce with my wife.  The question was forced to the surface last week as my wife had reached a point of ultimatums -she's tired of my status quo of "good enough" and we're both kind of going through the motions.

Fortunately, I am pretty good now at steering around land-mines.  I can stay on topic, and not dump out emotions in response to blame and manipulation.  Admittedly, I have come a long way from who I was five years ago. 

We're on good, and open conversational terms.  I know from other's experience that all can seem calm at the front end.  And, I've read Splitting two or three times, in addition to several other divorce / BPD books.  But right now, things seem oddly mature.  I'm holding back a lot, which is a survival instinct. 

This puts me in a catch - I've mused that if I opt to divorce, and it goes smoothly, then I've made a mistake, since she's not the problem I thought.  Whereas, if I opt to divorce and it turns into a horrible experience, then it was the right thing after all.

As I said, this wasn't a topic I was prepared for at this time. I had internally made made my (temporary) peace, and was going to try to ride it out a little longer, just to not disturb the kids (especially S15, who's high-functioning autistic).  Nevertheless, here I am at the crossroads.  I might have a chance to make headway towards a divorce, since she's willing to talk, and finally the cat's out of the bad, so to speak.  [Aside: that feels good actually, to have the topic in the open]

There's the nagging problem I have in the back of my mind, that this might honestly be as good as it gets, and although my feelings advise against re-entering the full marriage, a divorce might be so destructive to everything that I'll look back and regret ever thinking of it.

Here I am, eternally stuck.
But, given this chance, should I go for it?
How should I approach this?

Thanks for listening!

[worriedStepmom]

My H and his uBPDex managed to get divorced fairly amicably and without a lawyer involved.  ex is terrified of the legal system, and so was more willing to negotiate.  H insisted on, and received, 50/50 custody.  They also didn't have a lot of assets, so their settlement was simpler.

The fact that they divorced amicably does not change the fact that she has a mental illness and has periods of dysregulation, some lasting months, where she acts abusively and is an absolute nightmare to deal with.

Do you know what the standard is in your state?  That is very important to know for the division of assets and debts.    My nonPDex and I tried to do a kitchen table divorce, but that quickly got acrimonious, so we went with the state standard method of dividing things up.  And we sold the marital home and split the equity, rather than fight over who got to stay in it.

[MeandThee29]

Really it's not good either way. Keep in mind that these types escalate over time. It won't stay like this, you can be sure.

I've been amazed at how much things fell into place afterwards. The divorce process was horrible, and close-out is driving the lawyers and paralegals crazy, particularly his attorney. But everything has calmed down otherwise and is good.

Mine promised it would be easy. It wasn't. He considers himself to be fair and kind and tells the legal professionals that. They disagree and rant about that. My senior attorney said multiple times that people who are truly good don't have to tell other people that. But I guess my ex entitled to his opinions.

[lpheal]

But right now, things seem oddly mature.  I'm holding back a lot, which is a survival instinct. 

How should I approach this?

Things are oddly mature, but you say you are still holding back a lot as a survival instinct.

Maybe think of the totality of your marriage, or the bad years, or maybe even just the burned out years. Contemplate if you would want the same number of your future years to look the same? If you could daydream about the remaining years of your life and what you want from them, how limiting would it be to remain in the marriage? Would things remain mature once the divorce conversation stopped and you both remained in the marriage? Could you be the best version of yourself for your children remaining in the marriage? I bring these up as considerations, with or without clear answers sometimes.

Amicable discussions could bode well for the remaining years of co-parenting...maybe less hostile than feared.

[ForeverDad]

The fact that they divorced amicably does not change the fact that she has a mental illness and has periods of dysregulation, some lasting months, where she acts abusively and is an absolute nightmare to deal with.

That is what I'm feeling, whether it goes less bad or more bad does not change the fact that your spouse has a mental illness and has periods of dysregulation negatively impacting your relationship.  If it is bad enough to contemplate divorce then that is your answer.  (Well, unless your spouse does begin addressing issues in intensive therapy with substantive results over the long term.  Recovery is a process after all, not an event.  Promises carry no weight, actions over time do.)

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks all.  I really appreciate the comments and support - even if I didn't really have something substantive to say.

We've had a few "heart to heart" conversations the past few days.  Tonight's conversation had some good connection, but also left me feeling like crap about myself.  Which reminds me that this is pretty much what the marriage is made of - the magic ingredient of filling me with regret and shame. 

I do feel badly for the hurtful things I did and said in the past - whether I can credit them to being under duress, or still having a long way to go in my personal growth, I don't know.  But, dealing with my wife seems to bring on a lot of negative feelings.  And even if I'm managing my own behavior, and [trying] acting mindfully, portions of what I say and do are still manipulated and misunderstood - and then likely held against me.   

In a touch of humor, one reason, honestly, that I have been trying to put off divorce is the cost.  I have had a hard time comprehending or accepting what I'd likely have to pay in alimony and child support.  As tonight's conversation went along, and I got more uncomfortable, the number in my head I'd be willing to pay in alimony kept climbing.  :/

[Jim Flynn]

That sounds positive. Unfortunately, I was unable to maintain my cool at kitchen table discussions. However, I would fear that things will get worse as that is the direction that my former uBPD partner has been bringing things. While things are 'goodish' get as much agreed as quickly as possible and legally signed up - don't waste time considering if you were at fault, we all were, because we did not know we needed to be highly trained mental health professionals with endless resources and patience before we entered into these relationships.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Jim Flynn - that is so true!  I had no idea of the professional certifications, medical school, and years of field training that were going to be required in order come home to a peaceful home at the end of the day.  If that's what some people do, because I missed medical school!  ;)


I'm actually just logging back in to report that for a few weeks now, we've had civil discussions about divorce, deciding, planning our future, on several occasions.  I somehow ended up back up to saying that I was just thinking of keeping the status quo, and living together.  But, she's reached her limit I think and we are forwarding the divorce conversations.

In reality, I would be more surprised if things went with my idea of "kitchen table" agreement.  We can agree on things like getting S15 into therapy - a needed step regardless.  And I am standing firm on my premise of 50/50 physical and joint legal custody.  But, beyond that, it might be tricky to disappoint her sense of entitlement, and cause the looming, dread abandonment issues.

[GaGrl]

At this point, there's no reason to rush. Let her "sit with her feelings" each time you make some progress. She may need time to imagine a new life.

[BeagleGirl]

Samwize,
As it sounds like these conversations are continuing and you are wise to recognize that entitlement and disordered thinking would be factors if you do move forward, it probably is a good idea to figure out exactly how much you are willing to “pay” to get out of the marriage. (I totally related to your comment about that value going up as the pain level ratcheted up.)

My lawyer felt I could have gotten a better “deal” and my therapist scolded me a bit about giving up as large a  percentage of our assets as I did, but 2+ years after our settlement I am 100% happy with my financial situation. I would have been the one paying child support and alimony but I stuck to my #1 priority of never exchanging money again. I will rebuild my retirement savings and have found that I have found that I have more money in my bank account each month despite being 100% responsible for all the financial needs of our children. I have remained true to my pledge of not giving him anymore money even when he ended up broke a year after the settlement  and (gasp) he had to get a real job. I was prepared to take full custody if he had been unable to support a living arrangement that was safe for our kids but it took a lot of therapy to overcome my desire to continue rescuing him.

That’s not to say that divorce or the aftermath have been easy, but I think they are much easier when you anticipate and accept the cost. The financial side is probably the easiest to do this with. Then there’s the lifestyle, changes in or loss of mutual friendships and rituals.  Then there’s the loss of “what could/should have been”. And, most difficult for me, the impact to the kids.   If you can look at all of those and come to a place of acceptance, you’re better equipped to stand firm on negotiating for what it will take to get there. Otherwise, the desire to get out of the temporary pain will push you to give more of yourself, your time, and your resources than you can afford. At least that’s how it went for me.

I will also say, because I think you have some of the same thoughts on commitment and personal responsibility, that I still struggle with thoughts that I come have done more or tolerated more and kept my marriage intact for the sake of my children. I don’t know that I’ll ever fully make peace with having divorced. BUT, I look at my dBPDxh’s desire to divorce as a gift. I do believe that my children have a better chance of having happy and healthy relationships because I am better able to show them what that looks like. I happen to be in a good relationship with a man who sets a great example of what a man, father, and partner can be, but even if that weren’t the case, I know my life, friendships, and parenting have benefited from not being in the turmoil of daily contact with my dBPDxh. Could I have reached this place while still married? I want to believe that it’s possible for that to happen,but I am accepting more and more that it probably wouldn’t have happened for me.  

BG

[Sluggo]

will also say, because I think you have some of the same thoughts on commitment and personal responsibility, that I still struggle with thoughts that I come have done more or tolerated more and kept my marriage intact for the sake of my children. I don’t know that I’ll ever fully make peace with having divorced. BUT, I look at my dBPDxh’s desire to divorce as a gift. I do believe that my children have a better chance of having happy and healthy relationships because I am better able to show them what that looks like. I happen to be in a good relationship with a man who sets a great example of what a man, father, and partner can be, but even if that weren’t the case, I know my life, friendships, and parenting have benefited from not being in the turmoil of daily contact with my dBPDxh. Could I have reached this place while still married? I want to believe that it’s possible for that to happen,but I am accepting more and more that it probably wouldn’t have happened for me. 

Great post Beaglegirl.  I echo on the the path of feelings that you took. 

Samwize- you have a lot of decisions in front of you.  My therapist told me, after a few months of hearing all the 'craziness' of my home life and kids life there was... when I talked about my financial fear of divorce... He said it is only money. 

And it was...  my fears did come true short term, but now only 4 years since I filed, I have finally paid off all debt associated with divorce..   I had to pay her Bill's, my bills, lost all 401k, and she got the home. It was a 94/6 split as we computed. But I kept saying it is just money...  and now 4 yrs later I am glad I did. 

In my marriage I became a shell of a man and father to my kida over 18 years.  I was like those chocolate easter rabbits that look big on outside but hollow inside.  Over the last 4 years I have become the father I always wanted to be to my children.  My 15 yr old daughter told CPS -during a false claim leveled by my exbpdwife recently- I don't have to walk around my house paranoid and on eggshells anymore.  Seeing that on cps report... confirmed and quel my 2and thoughts I have had over 'what if' I could have been more patient or acquiesce more to her demands, and so forth. 

Just 8 months ago, Exbpd wife gave up all parental rights and custody voluntarily.  This was after I went almost Banrkrupt fighting just to get 50/50 and lost. I had got minimum guidelines despite custody Eval stating there was child abuse and alienation at moms. 

You have a lot to process...  so I thought to share my experience to help you come to a clearer path of resolution. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you everyone for the thoughts, and support that really comes through.  Thank you.

I'm busy today, but just checking in to say this limbo status is not a good place to be.  But, I've been here so long, I just ignore it, and find the good in a lot of other places. Wife and I have had more discussions, less about divorce, and more about what to do.  Plus, who finds time to divorce when the kids need to get ready for school after a busy weekend with dad?  ;)

I don't like the way I feel around her - which is the red flag I should stay in touch with.  

Even mostly benign topics sometimes leave me feeling guilty, discouraged, or at the point I can't stand her self-righteous posture.  I told her I had read three or four chapters on a marriage relations class workbook we both have, and she asked if it was "just academic reading?" Implying that I wasn't going to do anything about it, or make things better, or work on things.  This reminds me of how she "forgives" me for all my past abuses.  Of course, for her to forgive me of all this, she has to make sure it's all my fault. Throw in the projection and blame, and add my tendency to be overly guilty and responsible, as well as having this devout belief in family integrity, keeping promises (of marriage for example) and, it just messes me up for a while.  And then I give up the path leading to divorce.

But, I'll use these "kitchen table" moments to keep communication open, and improve what I can between us, while I try to discipline myself to do the harder work, of actually deciding to divorce (or not) and make the big changes in life.

I often hear the stories of financial disasters after divorce.  It's a real concern as I draw closer to retirement.  But, as is mentioned above - it's only money at a certain point.  If I could be cured of some fatal cancer with an expensive treatment, wouldn't I accept it, and pay?

A while ago, I came up with this mantra -- "No man would be a slave if the price of freedom was poverty."  which reminds me that health and wellness, not to mention freedom and peace, are worth the cost. 

What's really hard to "want" to do, is divorce and risk even more damage to the kids.  I could end up in court and get severely limited time with the kids, and a vengeful ex who already contributed to one kid being alienated from me.  I'm careful with what I ask for.