Knowing what and how to let things go

[Ozzie101]

I’m struggling lately — with a number of things like all of us right now.

My H has actually not had any major dysregulation in a while, which is a positive thing. But there have been plenty of incidents — some minor and short-lived, some about major topics. In all, I’ve managed to escape the situation and go to bed. He’s much more reasonable in the morning.

I can’t trust him. He’ll say things and insist on things in his moods and I don’t know what’s real. Sometimes it’s obviously a flat-out fantasy. Sometimes there’s a ring of truth. So, I’m in a place now where, unless he’s at baseline, I believe nothing. But that’s not a good relationship.

I’ve been watching Dr. Ramani videos about narcissism on YouTube after seeing them recommended by someone here and so many of H’s behaviors and attitudes fit. It’s enlightening but also disheartening.

Almost every time he leaves the house (for work or to take SS to the park), he ends up being gone longer than he said and comes home combative and/or passive-aggressive. So I find myself getting anxious any time he leaves. I’m working on myself there, to try to keep my emotions in check and prepare for what may come. But it’s not a fun way to go through the week.

There’s frequent baiting (which I’m getting better about not taking). Jabs. Mood changes on the slightest outside frustration, which is then taken out on me.

I feel like I can’t go to him with problems or negative feelings (about anything) because when I do, he ends up getting moody and frustrated and negative. It’s exhausting.

The thing is, I know I can’t change him. I’m the only one I can change. I’m the one who has to adapt. But the question becomes, how much do I want to? How much should I? At what point is it just enabling? At what point do I lose myself?

Am I handling it right? Should I be more firm? Am I too accommodating? Or am I too negative? Am I not giving him a fair shake? Is a lot of this just in my mind? I’m just trying to sort some of those things out for myself.

Feelings of hopelessness around the situation nibble at me. I struggle to try to see what is likely, what is possible, what is real.

[formflier]

So...looking back at my own journey, there was a point in time where I started being more explicit about what I wanted or needed in the relationship.

Not a demand...there was no "or else" but it was clear to my wife that I wanted (blank) and she was my first choice.  Then I went forward and got/did (blank) with or without my wife.

I didn't rub in her face if she declined but I didn't at all hide it from her. 

There have been many things that my wife initially balked at and then joined and some she joined and later walked away. 

The key to all of this is I went forward with what I deemed to be good for me and/or the r/s and let the chips fall.  I spent very little time trying to "convince" my wife.

Now, most of the time my wife is "reacting" to me and what I'm doing, rather than me waiting to see what "thing" she does and then figuring something out.

I can fill in details if needed but I'm hoping you can see the pattern and make some plans how this can fit in what you want for your future.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with FF, I had to make a change in my behavior, which previously would have felt like I was being selfish, and focus upon what I wanted, rather than upon “us”.

Ironically, there were often times when I had been focused upon “us”/him when he accused me of being selfish or self centered. But far less now that I actually am focused upon my own needs and wants. Go figure...

What I chalk this up to is that he doesn’t want to be influenced/manipulated and at any hint of that, he becomes obstinate.

That’s where your power is—self focus rather than thinking in terms of teamwork. Sucks, but it works much more smoothly, at least for me.

I didn’t get married to be alone, but there’s a certain element of aloneness that seems to make things better the more I allow it.

This must be difficult for you, Ozzie, as you’re accustomed to such closeness with your family.

I think at some point it will be possible for you to share your feelings and concerns with him and have him be there for you. However, we can all agree it’s a fraught time now.

He didn’t have that closeness that you grew up with, so it may feel claustrophobic to him and controlling. As you step away from some of the issues that bother you, like the lateness and ignoring the bad moods (I know, easier said than done), it might be that you can build up a level of trust where he can feel that he can be himself, without being judged negatively, and at that point, he might be able to relax his guard a bit and be more of a partner to you.

[Ray2017]

I'm so sorry, Ozzie.  It's never ending, and it's exhausting.  My world is upside down (my dad's dying) and I really, really resent my H and his dysregulations more than ever.  I really don't want this to be the rest of my life.  My handling of things has been varied, but I try and catch myself and repeat over and over "what would FF and Cat say to do here?" and then try and do it.  I'm glad they commented here, and I'll remind myself of this, and what they've said in other threads.  Hang in there, one moment at a time, one foot in front of the other.

[Butane]

I can’t trust him. He’ll say things and insist on things in his moods and I don’t know what’s real. Sometimes it’s obviously a flat-out fantasy. Sometimes there’s a ring of truth. So, I’m in a place now where, unless he’s at baseline, I believe nothing. But that’s not a good relationship.

This sounds very tiring for you. I also get tired having to constantly monitor my reactions and evaluating whether what H is saying is real, fantasy, or about something else entirely.

Almost every time he leaves the house (for work or to take SS to the park), he ends up being gone longer than he said and comes home combative and/or passive-aggressive. So I find myself getting anxious any time he leaves. I’m working on myself there, to try to keep my emotions in check and prepare for what may come. But it’s not a fun way to go through the week.

I get anxious when mine gets home! Same thing though... I need to expend more mental energy when he is around. Again, it's tiring. 

I feel like I can’t go to him with problems or negative feelings (about anything) because when I do, he ends up getting moody and frustrated and negative. It’s exhausting.

My H can *sometimes* be supportive of my struggles. But most of the time, it's what you said above ... yesterday my H was negative about exactly 100% of everything. He passed an important test but was unhappy for numerous reasons, he thinks the kids have no respect and ignore him, and that I am doing most things well, but at the same time, I'm doing most things inadequately. Circular discussion, expressions like "That's it! I've had it! I'm done!" Then he accused me of "trying some kind of technique" on him, as I was choosing my words carefully to validate the valid, not JADE etc.

The thing is, I know I can’t change him. I’m the only one I can change. I’m the one who has to adapt. But the question becomes, how much do I want to? How much should I? At what point is it just enabling? At what point do I lose myself?

Am I handling it right? Should I be more firm? Am I too accommodating? Or am I too negative? Am I not giving him a fair shake? Is a lot of this just in my mind? I’m just trying to sort some of those things out for myself.

Feelings of hopelessness around the situation nibble at me. I struggle to try to see what is likely, what is possible, what is real.

I think you do handle a lot of things well, based on many posts of yours I have read. You sound very tired, and you are asking yourself questions that I also ask myself when the task of being H's partner seems like a losing proposition.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you so much, y’all. Having the support and advice here is invaluable.

I think what starts getting to me about the being able to share with him is that it’s so imbalanced. I’m there to listen to his venting and ranting. Yet any complaint I have stays inside. I’m gradually getting better there though. I’m able to detach and get away better.

It’s not so much the getting home late that bugs me. It’s that I know what usually follows — he’ll come in combative and dysregulating. The earlier he’s home, the better things are.

Cat and FF, your advice is sound. I need to get better about focusing on me. What I need and want. And rather than trying to manage him or shield him, let chips fall. I recognize I focus on him too much. I need to be honest with myself and about myself.

Granted, I doubt he’ll like that. One of his most regular complaints is that I (or whoever else may be connected somehow) don’t help him with his stress or help him deal with things. I got in the habit of helping too much. That was a mistake.

I need to also work on his passive-aggressive stuff, that gets under my skin. But that’s true no matter who does it. Last night he threw out “We can’t go on a vacation this year anyway because of your new job.” I ignored. He tried to bring my family into an argument about text messages. I ignored. Nothing blew up. So, good. But it eats away over time.

  to all

[Cat Familiar]

Yes it's imbalanced and you must somehow reconcile that it always will be. However, it may get a lot better. It certainly has in my marriage. I didn't at all think that was possible.

Part of what helped me is developing sort of a mental spreadsheet. Yeah, there are ways I'd love to feel supported that will never happen, or are unlikely. But he does support me in many ways that I wasn't giving him credit for, since with some issues I wanted a tit for tat accounting.

He's really stepped up to the plate during this crisis and has done far more than I would have expected. If you read some of my early posts (please don't--I cringe) much of what I was complaining about had to do with him being a slacker while I did all the work. That's really changed.

What has gotten me to a point of happiness and acceptance is realizing how much he does contribute and that some things are beyond his emotional maturity, but may not be later.

That said, having been through marriage with two BPD partners, sometimes there are truly irreconcilable differences where a partner is so needy, so unpredictable, so unaccountable, so cruel...that it is pointless to try to improve the relationship, as it may never be acceptable.

That's where our freedom as nons lies. We can choose to stay and make things as best as we can by working on ourselves...or...we can choose to leave.

[formflier]

An example of "focusing on me" that I recently found evidence is ticking my wife off.

We are reading this book together and making notes, highlighting things.

It's an attempt at communication we haven't tried for a long time.  We'll see.

Anyway...she apparently is upset that I go get massages, chiropractic and things like that.  She does from time to time kinda "sniff" about why are you doing that..then quickly leaves it alone.

And..I've offered to get her some sessions I think she could benefit but she's a "non believer" in all that stuff.

Whatever.

Years ago if I read that it would have ticked me off...I'll be frank...I had kinda a wry grin on my face when I read it this time.  In fact...logged on and scheduled myself another massage.

And...if we ever do "discuss" that verbally...I won't save her from contradictions or "problems" with her view.  "So...just so I understand what you've written in the way you want me to understand it..."

"You find it upsetting that I get massages?"

"hmmm..would you like to examine my medical records to see what our doctor says about the wisdom of getting regular massages?"

etc etc

Best,

FF

[Butane]

I think what starts getting to me about the being able to share with him is that it’s so imbalanced. I’m there to listen to his venting and ranting. Yet any complaint I have stays inside. I’m gradually getting better there though. I’m able to detach and get away better.

Ozzie, you say you are "gradually getting better" at detaching and getting away. I too feel like, in many ways, my relationship with my H is imbalanced. I am also there to listen to his venting and complaining (about work, politics, the kids, etc etc..)

A typical conversation might involve me asking many interested questions, validating him, encouraging him with some praise, and offering solutions. He loves to talk about his own stuff and does express appreciation for me in that regard.

On the flip side, he rarely expresses interest in my life. If I ask him "How was your day?", he does not ask me in turn, how my day was. If I tell him a story about my day, his response is usually a disinterested  "Oh". And if comment about a minor annoyance I am feeling, he will say I'm complaining and he doesn't want to hear it. "Just fix it!" he will say with annoyance.

There is very little reciprocity.

Is this what you experience? What do you do to detach?

     

One of his most regular complaints is that I (or whoever else may be connected somehow) don’t help him with his stress or help him deal with things. I got in the habit of helping too much. That was a mistake.

I'm picturing your H saying "...and you never help me deal with my stress!" I'm picturing the many times my H has said similar things. He said a few days ago, regarding his difficulty connecting with our S12, "you're the reason S12 barely talks to me, YOU fix it!".

How can I be responsible for H's relationship with our son? I can only do so much...

Can you expand a bit about how you were "in the habit of helping too much"?

I need to also work on his passive-aggressive stuff, that gets under my skin. But that’s true no matter who does it. Last night he threw out “We can’t go on a vacation this year anyway because of your new job.” I ignored. He tried to bring my family into an argument about text messages. I ignored. Nothing blew up. So, good. But it eats away over time.

Yes, it does eat away over time. My H often makes indirect or direct statements of blame.
Is ignoring it the best? I sometimes ignore, but some of the accusations are hurtful and then I feel the need to defend myself. Then he calls me defensive, or says "you're arguing with me!"

[Ozzie101]

Mental spreadsheet — good plan, Cat! And it does help to think of the positive things. Our dishwasher broke and it’s taking for-EVER for the new one to come in. Yesterday I was feeling really worn out after a week of work, one dog waking me up early, etc. Well, H insisted on him and SS doing the dishes solo that evening while I relaxed on the couch. Small gesture but thoughtful and something he does when he’s baseline. So, no, it’s not all negative.

And I don’t think I’m that needy. I rarely need much if anything, support-wise. But sometimes it rankles.

Butane, what do I do to detach? I focus on my feelings and emotions. And on facts. Does what H is saying have any merit? Is he just trying to bait me? If I know he’s spouting nonsense or being combative, I go “grey rock.” Sort of unemotional, blank. I focus on staying calm.

As for over-helping, if he was stressed or worried or upset about something, I used to swoop in to help fix it. He’s bored with dinner options? I’ll frantically search the internet and cookbooks for something new. Work is stressful? I’ll do all the cooking, cleaning, kid stuff. Tons more examples. Now, if he not happy with dinner plans, I welcome him to make suggestions but I don’t drive myself nuts trying to find something to make him happy. And I’ll help if it seems reasonable and if I genuinely feel like it. Otherwise, I let him manage and sort his own feelings.

[Cat Familiar]

I was referring to partners being overly needy, not you, Ozzie, 

And he does seem awfully needy with:
“You aren’t supportive enough”
“Your family doesn’t like me and my son as much as you.”
“You don’t make as much money as me.”

And various other random whining that he expects you to pay attention to, fix the circumstances, and make him feel OK again.

Think about all that you do for him and how much harder his life would be as a single dad if he didn’t have your support.

[Ozzie101]

Oh, I know, Cat! I was just saying this isn’t a complaint that gets to me a lot — or very often.

And, yes, his life would be a LOT more difficult.

One area I’ve been working on (and making progress) is on “handling” him. Not getting anxious when something comes up that might upset him. Not trying to soothe and fix things. Empathy, yes. But then move on.

The other night he was frustrated with stuff dealing with submission of SS’s schoolwork. Instead of listening to a wind-up rant, I agreed that must be frustrating, then went on fixing dinner.

[Coastgirl]

I identify with almost every sentence in this post. I often ask myself how much should I be allowing or for how long. Is this how I want to live my life?
Would he do this for me if our roles were reversed?

Detaching does seem to be the best way but I am still learning there.